238mph
Pro
Posts: 1145
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posted September 08, 2005 02:55 PM
TRen what about brakes??? suggestions...????
   
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scooter trash
Expert Class
Posts: 407
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posted September 08, 2005 03:04 PM
Sorry, I went out to work on the bike and didn't log in again last night.
You are correct Bill, I had to dig out my suspension pdf and refresh my memory. I'm not sure where I picked up the tire size thing (or shim thing) - I read it somewhere but that is definitely not correct.
Sorry, I shouldn't have commented without checking my facts.
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted September 08, 2005 03:57 PM
Not at all, 99-percent-plus of your immediate-recall stuff is right on the money.
Jere, what you were saying on those posts about preload adjusting the sag, and effect on rake, is exactly it.
Dunno what to say about brakes partly because of being unsure what you mean -- if any relation on the ride height there is a claimed difference with higher rear putting a little more weight on the front giving a touch more initial attack available with the front brake but I definitely can't say I've ever been one to spot such a subtlety, though to Rossi it's probably night and day. Or just in general, I dunno... personally I found the B2 brakes to be good (by my ordinary-guy standards) and the B4 to be a little better, each was able to stoppie no problem. OTOH at least one has said his bike won't stoppie, the brakes are that weak. Don't know why that would happen other than bleeding problems.
I have a reverse-bleed tool that is really good, you pump the brake fluid in from the bleeder nipple and up out the master cylinder. Not that brakes can't be bled the conventional way but sometimes stubborness happens; this seems to eliminate that.
Or if not bleeding or ride-height on the brakes, just how to improve 'em in general, I suppose the Brembo radial GP master cylinder is good, along with good lines (e.g. Spiegler), optionally better calipers (e.g. AP CP7583, if having a 2004+, or some regular Brembos if earlier than that) and optionally better rotors (e.g. the ceramics), with the last two likely being the least improvement for braking, are good ways to go. Hope so anyway as I ordered 'em, only lacking the calipers and rotors thus far.
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238mph
Pro
Posts: 1145
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posted September 08, 2005 04:11 PM
Tren, since I'm now going into the turns faster, I'm finding that I need more brake
power at the last second.... I guess I was just lazy in the past and didn't lean on them
very much... now that I'm getting more aggressive, I find the barkes are really lacking...
Or maybe I need to face the fact that the 12 is just a heavy slug... and go to a 10r.... 
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238mph
Pro
Posts: 1145
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posted September 08, 2005 04:12 PM
Blitx... How come you're not helping me out here bro??? You got great answers... but
no input??? what's up???
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scooter trash
Expert Class
Posts: 407
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posted September 08, 2005 04:22 PM
I'd be really interested in discussing reverse-bleed systems.
Its one tool I don't have. I cuss and bitch everytime I do the old school method but since I am totally re-doing my brakes right now I would drop some change to avoid the aggravation.
Whatcha using Bill and how much $$?
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted September 08, 2005 04:22 PM
 Edited By: trenace on 8 Sep 2005 17:27
I am not the best to ask on brakes... I am deliberately not very demanding on them (except for fun without any actual shortage of room) due to over-aggressive policy on braking, somewhere in my mid 20's, I realized was my #1 crash cause. So I don't really put them to terribly hard work anyhow nor superfast response.
Actually I don't think braking quickness has much if anything to do with the weight of the bike. E.g. there are 3000 lb-plus race cars that stop like a brick wall; and that's 800 lb-plus per wheel counting driver. It would if the brakes were overloaded, but I never actually thought that was the case with the 2005 bike stock, and sure ought not to be the case once the upgrades are in. The quick response is more (or perhaps almost entirely) a question of pads and lever travel which is more a question of the master cylinder and brake lines.
Seems like there are more guys complaining about brake sluggishness on the 10 than on the 12 anyhow. (With master cylinder or stubborn air being the apparent culprits if I've gatherered correctly.)
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scooter trash
Expert Class
Posts: 407
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posted September 08, 2005 04:38 PM
quote:
Blitx... How come you're not helping me out here bro??? You got great answers... but
no input??? what's up???
Sorry Jere, didn't mean to dis' you.
My suspension knowledge is limited to the golden rules. You are asking questions that I think really need to be answered by somebody who really understands them beyond my knowledge level.
If you're running close to the wall I don't want to be the guy that gets something a few mm off and you take a digger.
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted September 08, 2005 04:41 PM
Edited By: trenace on 8 Sep 2005 17:53
It's a "V-12 Injector."
It's possible to purchase it from the company that actually makes it for about $139, but if you try to do so they will advise instead buying the Motion Pro version, as it has an accessory that fits snug on the top of the master cylinder so when you pump fluid up, it gets collected rather than spilling or spraying all over. I paid about $189.
The Motion Pro version definitely is marked up, particularly in that most outfits selling it want $225 or something like that, but the utility of that accessory is worth the $50 extra. (In terms of what it actually is, it is a $10 piece, reasonable retail.)
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scooter trash
Expert Class
Posts: 407
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posted September 08, 2005 04:50 PM
Jeses Dude, you are dropping some dime on the bike!
I can't wait to se the finished product.
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted September 08, 2005 04:54 PM
Edited By: trenace on 8 Sep 2005 17:57
Actually I misread your post, I thought you were asking me what brakes I had -- that having been the general context, and I didn't scroll up) and what they cost. I then saw you asked about the bleeding tool, so corrected the post (and am more comfortable with that!)
My only consolation on the brake cost is that the cost per lb of unsprung weight saved is pretty much commensurate with what it typically is no matter what you do in that department, other than the lighter wheel spacers which are a true bargain. I didn't spend more per lb saved, just saved more lb, is my excuse.
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scooter trash
Expert Class
Posts: 407
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posted September 08, 2005 04:55 PM
quote:
It's a "V-12 Injector."
Is this it? http://shop.store.yahoo.com/brandsplace/0246-ps-v12-205.html
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted September 08, 2005 04:58 PM
Edited By: trenace on 8 Sep 2005 18:00
That is it but it is the Phoenix version, that is to say, as made by the original manufacturer. So it doesn't have the master cylinder-covering collector accessory or at least I don't think it does, if I understood Phoenix correctly.
Looking at Google, it seems Motion Pro calls it the "Maxi-Ject," though the box it comes in says V-12.
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scooter trash
Expert Class
Posts: 407
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posted September 08, 2005 05:05 PM
Cool. Thanks man.
I'm out - Thursday Night Football just started. LOL
Catch you guys tomorrow.
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238mph
Pro
Posts: 1145
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posted September 09, 2005 01:45 PM
Ok today I bought a Pilot Power fo rthe rear... and I even did a 180 vs a 200....
They took the Dunlop off and said ... "Holy shit... this has 40 miles on it???"
I said yeah...
One guy standing there bought the Dunlop... which was like new in the center... he said
he has never had his bike over that far, so he didn't care if the edges were burned off...
and then goes...  "You must be riding a 600..." I laughed my ass off and told him it
was the ZX-12R... He damn near crapped....
Who says these big boys won't corner????
Thanks Blitz for helping me with the brake shit... I ordered all of it online last night....
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Ming
Parking Attendant
Posts: 5
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posted September 10, 2005 07:33 AM
Hi Folks
Dont know if this is any help to you guys but this is a setting posted in the bike press in the uk
I will give you the standard settings first.
front pre-load flush with seventh ring from the top.
front compression 2.25 turns from fully in
front rebound 1.5 turns from fully in
rear pre-load 5mm thread above collar
rear compression 2.25 turns from fully in
rear rebound 3 turns from fully in.
the setting they recommend...
front pre-load flush with 7th ring from the top
front compression 2.75 turns from fully in
front rebound 1.5 turns from fully in.
rear pre-load 6mm of thread above collar
rear compression 2 turns from fully in
rear rebound 2.5 turns from fully in
this is for a rider who weighs 14.5 stone
hope it helps
cheers MING
ps havent tried it myself in plaster after high siding my blade
____________
getting wasted is never a waste of time
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238mph
Pro
Posts: 1145
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posted September 10, 2005 08:15 AM
Thanks Ming... how many lbs is one stone???
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Ming
Parking Attendant
Posts: 5
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posted September 10, 2005 08:39 AM
14 lb to a stone imp
or 92.3 kilos
____________
getting wasted is never a waste of time
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Outlaw1
Zone Head
Posts: 803
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posted September 10, 2005 06:12 PM
Edited By: Outlaw1 on 10 Sep 2005 19:13
Here is something I posted back in 2003.
Jere did you get the sag set?
Suspension Tuning Guide
Street Bike or Road Racing Applications
With incorrect suspension setup, tire wear is increased and handling suffers,
resulting in rider fatigue. Lap times can be dramatically slower and overall
safety for both street and race enthusiasts is another issue. Add the
frustration factor and it just makes sense to properly setup your suspension.
The following guide will help you dial in your suspension for faster and safer
riding both on and off the track.
Basic Setup: Check the following
Forks sag 25-40 mm
Shock sag 25-35 mm
Check chain alignment. If not correct, bike will crab walk and sprocket wear
will be increased.
Proper tire balance and pressure. If out of balance, there will be vibration and
headshake.
Steering head bearings and torque specifications, if too loose, there will be
head shake at high speeds.
Front-end alignment. Check wheel alignment with triple clamps. If out of
alignment, fork geometry will be incorrect and steering will suffer.
Crash damage, check for proper frame geometry.
Adjustment Locations on Forks
Rebound adjustment (if applicable) is located near the top of the fork.
Compression adjustment (if applicable) is located near the bottom of the fork.
Spring preload adjustment (if applicable) is generally hex style and located at
the top of the fork.
FRONT FORKS:
Forks: Lack of Rebound
Symptoms:
Forks are plush, but increasing speed causes loss of control and traction
The motorcycle wallows and tends to run wide exiting the turn causing fading
traction and loss of control.
When taking a corner a speed, you experience front-end chatter, loss of traction
and control.
Aggressive input at speed lessons control and chassis attitude suffers.
Front end fails to recover after aggressive input over bumpy surfaces.
Solution:
Insufficient rebound. Increase rebound "gradually" until control and traction
are optimized and chatter is gone.
Forks: Too Much Rebound
Symptoms:
Front end feels locked up resulting in harsh ride.
Suspension packs in and fails to return, giving a harsh ride. Typically after
the first bump, the bike will skip over subsequent bumps and want to tuck the
front.
With acceleration, the front end will tank slap or shake violently due to lack
of front wheel tire contact.
Solution:
Too much rebound. Decrease rebound "gradually" until control and traction are
optimized.
Forks: Lack of Compression
Symptoms:
Front-end dives severely, sometimes bottoming out over heavy bumps or during
aggressive breaking.
Front feels soft or vague similar to lack of rebound.
When bottoming, a clunk is heard. This is due to reaching the bottom of fork
travel.
Solution:
Insufficient compression. Increase "gradually" until control and traction are
optimized.
Forks: Too Much Compression
Symptom:
Front end rides high through the corners, causing the bike to steer wide. It
should maintain the pre-determined sag, which will allow the steering geometry
to remain constant.
Solution:
Decrease compression "gradually" until bike neither bottoms or rides high.
Symptom:
Front end chatters or shakes entering turns. This is due to incorrect oil height
and/or too much low speed compression damping.
Solution:
First, verify that oil height is correct. If correct, then decrease compression
"gradually" until chattering and shaking ceases.
Symptom:
Bumps and ripples are felt directly in the triple clamps and through the
chassis. This causes the front wheel to bounce over bumps.
Solution:
Decrease compression "gradually" until control is regained.
Symptom:
Ride is generally hard, and gets even harder when braking or entering turns.
Solution:
Decrease compression "gradually" until control is regained.
REAR SHOCK:
Adjustment Locations on Shocks
Rebound adjustment (if applicable) is located at the bottom of the shock.
Compression adjustment (if applicable) is located on the reservoir. Spring
prelude is located at the top of the shock.
Shock: Lack of Rebound
Symptoms:
The ride will feel soft or vague and as speed increases, the rear end will want
to wallow and/or weave over bumpy surfaces and traction suffers.
Loss of traction will cause rear end to pogo or chatter due to shock returning
too fast on exiting a corner.
Solution:
Insufficient rebound: Increase rebound until wallowing and weaving disappears
and control and traction are optimized.
Shock: Too Much Rebound
Symptoms:
Ride is harsh, suspension control is limited and traction is lost.
Rear end will pack in, forcing the bike wide in corners, due to rear squat. It
will slow steering because front end is riding high.
When rear end packs in, tires generally will overheat and will skip over bumps.
When chopping throttle, rear end will tend to skip or hop on entries.
Solution:
Too much rebound. Decrease rebound "gradually" until harsh ride is gone and
traction is regained. Decrease rebound to keep rear end from packing.
Shock: Lack of Compression
Symptoms:
The bike will not turn in entering a turn.
With bottoming, control and traction are lost.
With excessive rear end squat, when accelerating out of corners, the bike will
tend to steer wide.
Solution:
Insufficient compression. Increase compression "gradually until traction and
control is optimized and/or excessive rear end squat is gone.
Shock: Too Much Compression
Symptoms:
Ride is harsh, but not as bad as too much rebound. As speed increases, so does
harshness.
There is very little rear end squat. This will cause loss of traction/sliding.
Tire will overheat.
Rear end will want to kick when going over medium to large bumps.
Solution:
Decrease compression until harshness is gone. Decrease compression until sliding
stops and traction is regained.
Stock Tuning Limitations
The factories plan on designing a bike that works moderately well for a large
section of riders and usages. To accomplish this as economically as possible,
manufacturers install valving with very small venturis. These are then matched
to a very basic shim stack which creates a damping curve for the given
suspension component. At slower speeds this design can work moderately well, but
at higher speeds, when the suspension must react more quickly, the suspension
will not flow enough oil, and will experience hydraulic lock. With hydraulic
lock, the fork and/or shock cannot dampen correctly and handling suffers. The
solution is to re-valve the active components to gain a proper damping curve. It
does not matter what components you have, (Ohlins, Fox, KYB, Showa), matching
them to your intended use and weight will vastly improve their action.
Furthermore, if you can achieve the damping curve that is needed, it does not
matter what brand name is on the component. Often with stock components, when
you turn the adjusters full in or out, you do not notice a difference. In part,
this is due to the fact that the manufacturer has put the damping curve in an
area outside of your ideal range. Also, because the valves have such small
venturis, the adjuster change makes very little difference. After re-valving,
the adjusters will be brought into play, and when you make an adjustment, you
will be able to notice that it affects the way the way the fork or shock
performs.
Another problem with stock suspension is the springs that are used. Often they
are progressive, increasing the spring rate with increased compression distance.
This means that the valving is correct for only one part of the spring's travel,
all other is compromise. If the factory does install a straight-rate spring, it
is rarely the correct rate for the weight of the rider with gear. The solution
is to install a straight-rate spring that matches the valving for the combined
weight of the bike, rider and gear to the type of riding intended.
Remember
Always make small adjustments, more is not always better.
Always keep notes.
Suspension tuning is an art, be patient.
____________
Lead, Follow, Or get the hell outta the way.
____________
Lead, Follow, Or get the hell outta the way.
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Outlaw1
Zone Head
Posts: 803
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posted September 10, 2005 06:17 PM
Jere it took me about 2 months to get my bike set-up, The last trip to the dragon I wore out the sides of Pirelli Dragon Corsa in 2 1/2 days. The tires were so sticky and the set-up was damn near perfect. I have all the settings and changes in a log book. The feel from a well set-up bike is like heaven. It puts ya on cloud nine.
____________
Lead, Follow, Or get the hell outta the way.
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Outlaw1
Zone Head
Posts: 803
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posted September 10, 2005 06:25 PM
quote:
Tren, since I'm now going into the turns faster, I'm finding that I need more brake
power at the last second.... I guess I was just lazy in the past and didn't lean on them
very much... now that I'm getting more aggressive, I find the barkes are really lacking...
Or maybe I need to face the fact that the 12 is just a heavy slug... and go to a 10r....
I run the braided Speigler lines front and rear. And I have the EBC Double HH padsPN# FA188HH, I have had pads on for 7500 miles and they stop just like the day I installed them. I have had the rear tire off the ground at 90 mph. Take my word they WORK.
People said dont use these pads because they cause wear on rotor. But I perfer the stopping power. Rotors are easy to change IMO. I would much rather change a rotor than hauling my bike home in peices because I could'nt stop.
____________
Lead, Follow, Or get the hell outta the way.
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