238mph
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posted September 07, 2005 08:06 PM
Gunner... you should be in bed!!!
Now Blitz, Tren is right on here... you say no no no... but you don't tell me HOW to do
it?? Where's the love??? 
Still mad over the desert ride???
   
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gunner
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posted September 07, 2005 08:12 PM
 Edited By: gunner on 7 Sep 2005 21:15
Jere NO! What you have done is adjust the ride height just like Bill said. Sag is an adjustment that like you have already determinded places the shocks in a working range both in compression and extention. Ideally you don't want to run out of either one. Ride height can be adjusted with shims at the rear and by sliding the tubes at the front that's why the fork has a certain amount of adjustment. If you can't get the sag correct without a ton of preload than it's time for new springs on either end. The Ass is high for a reason also Jere. Aero is a big play into this. I know you're going to say lower is better and to a degree you're right. But for road racing and bikes that turn for a living there has to be a certain amount of ground clearance. So once that's achieved slipstreaming air over the rider and off the tail as clean as possible becomes important. Again the designers of the 12R knew what they were doing. So give them a little credit and get some HIGH HEELS. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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238mph
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posted September 07, 2005 08:25 PM
I also can adjust my ride height because my dogbones have adjusting holes in them...
If I would have left the rear end down, I could have lowered the front by slipping the
fork tubes... I don't need 8 inches of ground clearance under my bike... I don't do speed
bumps and potholes...
So now I wonder if I should lower the rear back down and lower the front too... bad thing
there is if I drop the front doing a wheelie... ouch on the fender...
Tomorrow I'll do a ride and see what it feels like...
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trenace
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posted September 07, 2005 08:26 PM
Edited By: trenace on 7 Sep 2005 21:28
quote:
About 30 or 35 mm, as the difference between completely unloaded and when you sit on it.
Just realized, that is not necessarily clear... "completely unloaded" meaning, not even the bike's own weight on it. E.g., jack stands holding it up by the passenger peg mounts, anything completely unloading the rear axle.
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238mph
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posted September 07, 2005 08:30 PM
When I tilt the bike over on the kickstand, I can tell the shock goes to full extension.
So I'd measure from that point to where I'm sitting on it....
I wonder if this will hurt the feeling of doing a stand up wheelie??? I don't want a
spongy rear end
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238mph
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posted September 07, 2005 08:31 PM
Edited By: 238mph on 7 Sep 2005 21:32
By the way, I trimmed off about 4 inches of the belly pan, so I don't have to remove the sides
to change the dog bones, or to grease the fittings on the suspension....
Why didn't Kawi do that from the get go...??? Can't see the difference from the side, and
now it's much easier to work on...
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gunner
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posted September 07, 2005 08:32 PM
Yes Bill that's what they mean by unloaded. One of my friends is into dirtbike BIG TIME and he has a cool ass little tool for getting the sag dead on. It just makes it easier is all. Sort of like one of those axle adjustment tools.
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gunner
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posted September 07, 2005 08:34 PM
Jere you have to have someone help you do the sag. You have to be on the bike in position so your weight is placed where it will be as you normally ride.
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238mph
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posted September 07, 2005 08:35 PM
I also made trhis neat tool to lift the bike under the shock for quick changes of the dog
bone settings.... 30 seconds now to change ride height....
I bet it's a 4 hour job if you have to remove both side fairings...
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gunner
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posted September 07, 2005 08:36 PM
OH and held strait up. If you're going to take the time and go thru the trouble migh as well do it right. It's not hard but it's a PITA to do alone. I can't pull it off by myself , but maybe I'm handicapped at more than spelling.
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238mph
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posted September 07, 2005 08:37 PM
quote:
Jere you have to have someone help you do the sag. You have to be on the bike in position so your weight is placed where it will be as you normally ride.
Ya mean I can't just sit on the bike backwards with a tape measure???
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gunner
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posted September 07, 2005 08:38 PM
You been copying Vozzie on the fairing lower?
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gunner
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posted September 07, 2005 08:39 PM
You can, But all you'll achieve is looking silly. OH! with a tape measure in your hand
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gunner
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posted September 07, 2005 08:41 PM
Way to go Jere you made Bob mad and he went home
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trenace
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posted September 07, 2005 08:42 PM
Edited By: trenace on 7 Sep 2005 21:45
To be utterly precise I guess one has to have help. But a reasonable approximation is to run a piece of string tied to the swingarm spool up to the passenger peg, in a reproduceable way. With bike unloaded, mark the string in a reproduceable way, e.g lined up with the halfway point of the peg or a sharp edge (better).
Then do the same sitting on the bike and having minimal weight on a foot (Which can be only ounces so what does that matter.) True I suppose the hand reaching back throws balance off a trace, and finding the string's center point for the market pen by feel may be off a millimeter or so but it does work if there is no help available. Seeing as how ultimately the final adjustment is according to riding impression it doesn't seem to me that a millimeter or two matters here, or even if one says it does, certainly it's better to be off by 2 mm than 10 or 15 due to not setting sag at all!
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238mph
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posted September 07, 2005 08:45 PM
I'll work on it tomorrow... I need to have a naked babe assist...!!! And photo document
everything!!!
Thanks guys....
Jere
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gunner
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posted September 07, 2005 08:48 PM
Edited By: gunner on 7 Sep 2005 21:53
I wish I knew more about all the suspention stuff actually. I've been tossing around the idea of taking my 12 down to Traxxion or somewhere like that and spend the day with some guys that do this for a living and pay them to learn my dumb ass. I know my settings are too firm and not optimum by any means. I also know that too soft will kill you quicker than too firm so I choose the firmer settings. Correctly set up all the way around is without a doubt going to give you a different handling 12R. I'm just not too sure it can be done with what the factory boys equipped the bike with. It will most probably require a couple of grand worth of suspenders. I'm still wishy washy about pumping money into the 12 until all the 06s are realeased.
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gunner
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posted September 07, 2005 08:51 PM
quote:
To be utterly precise I guess one has to have help. But a reasonable approximation is to run a piece of string tied to the swingarm spool up to the passenger peg, in a reproduceable way. With bike unloaded, mark the string in a reproduceable way, e.g lined up with the halfway point of the peg or a sharp edge (better).
Then do the same sitting on the bike and having minimal weight on a foot (Which can be only ounces so what does that matter.) True I suppose the hand reaching back throws balance off a trace, and finding the string's center point for the market pen by feel may be off a millimeter or so but it does work if there is no help available. Seeing as how ultimately the final adjustment is according to riding impression it doesn't seem to me that a millimeter or two matters here, or even if one says it does, certainly it's better to be off by 2 mm than 10 or 15 due to not setting sag at all!
As usual Tren I agree. In this case some is better than none Since I'm not sure it can be achieved exactly anyway with the factory parts. Maybe I'm just not sure.
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trenace
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posted September 07, 2005 09:11 PM
Edited By: trenace on 7 Sep 2005 22:17
BTW this is a good discussion. A lot of times talking about something, makes one realize that one has been taking something for granted that isn't necessarily so.
I learned setting sag back on the twin-shock bikes. Rightly or wrongly, I measured it in the same line as the shocks (which seems logical enough but might not be correct, now that I think about it.)
And I have kind of aped that ever since, with monoshock bikes. For example my swingarm spool to passenger peg method kind of apes that angle.
But is that right?
Should it instead by 30-35 mm of VERTICAL movement?
That is not exactly the same thing!
Could be I have been wrong there.
EDIT: Looking quickly on the Internet I see various pictures showing vertical.
That is not a hell of a difference from my method, the relatively modest angle would only change things a mm or two, but technically my above method is not right, or would require correction for angle (which would be easy enough to do, on measuring the angle and doing a little math.)
FURTHER EDIT: Actually, my passenger peg is almost dead over the swingarm spool anyway, can not be more than few degrees off, which would be unlikely to throw the measurement off by more than say one mm. So the method has been OK though my feeling that it was supposed to be leaned like that was wrong. Fortunately on the 12 there is little lean with the method I chose.
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gunner
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posted September 07, 2005 09:15 PM
Yes, it's vertical
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238mph
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posted September 08, 2005 02:28 PM
Edited By: 238mph on 8 Sep 2005 15:30
Ok... I went for a hot ride on the mountian...
Big difference with rear end up... much quicker turn in... almost too twitchy with this
much less rake... now I see why guys want steering dampners...
I need to take some spring out of the rear... I don't even care what my sag is... the rear
is sprung too stiff with the tail high and more weight on the front....
Corner speeds are WAY up... amazing... I'd lean into a turn, and have to GAS ON as the
bike wanted to fall deeper into the turn... ie faster through the turns with the usual
approach....
As expected, front Pilot Power stuck like glue... rear Dunlop all over the place....near the end
I finally just flogged the bike and really destroyed the Dunlop for the fun of it... meatballs
shredding off the rear....
Brakes... ugh... with so much faster approach to the turns, the weakness of the brakes
became REAL apparent... too soft, too mushy, and NOT there when I needed them....
So I'll need help on whatever I need to upgrade them... lines? pads? new rotors???
Please help....
All in all, a very bad scenario... almost wish I didn't change... now I'm going through
turns on the mountain MUCH faster, with rock walls lining the outside of every turn.
No runoff area at all... if the tires let go at these speeds, I'm toast... no maybes....toast.
What I need to do is track days, but they are so far away... the mountain is in my backyard.
I will say it will be real hard not to get hurt... damn, I can't believe how much faster the
12 is in the turns now.... I was able to pass cars on the inside or the outside, and the
front stuck like glue... Time to change out the rear for a Pilot Power... NO DOUBT!!!
Jere
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238mph
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posted September 08, 2005 02:33 PM
Oh, bad side is FORGET holeshots... just breathe on the throttle and the front end is
all over the place... drag racing is out with this setup....
I need dog bones with electric jack screws!!!! Hit a button and they lower the rear!!!!
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trenace
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posted September 08, 2005 02:46 PM
Edited By: trenace on 8 Sep 2005 15:49
The sag has a lot to do with the perceived stiffness.
A correct-stiffness (in terms of the actual rate of the spring itself, regardless of preload) spring will work too stiff when the preload is adjusted too much, giving too little sag.
Even a too-soft spring could be made too stiff, in some instances, with too much preload.
So in other words the sag is very closely related to this and adjusting the sag could be the correct fix.
Now what you're saying is to the letter exactly right: if riding finds the spring functionally too stiff then one should not "care" what the sag is, the answer is soften it up. Not to say, "Well this book said 40 mm is a maximum sag so I don' t dare go to 45." However, on having to soften it up "the wrong way" but the only way available at the time, the wrong sag would be reason to go buy a softer spring.
OTOH, if it's too stiff in riding but the sag is only 25 mm, then true, the REAL reason for reducing the preload is because of the performance. But the sag number would also have been a tip-off that trying that much preload probably shouldn't have been done anyway.
Not disagreeing with you, just trying to expand and/or clarify on it.
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238mph
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posted September 08, 2005 02:52 PM
How else to you set the sag, but through the preloading of the spring?
I figure if I unload some of spring, I'll have more sag, and also get a softer feel in the rear...
and all the setting on the shocks, front and rear are at full soft... rebound, everything...
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238mph
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posted September 08, 2005 02:53 PM
I'm also thinking that by taking out preload, it will drop the rear a bit more... giving
me some rake back, and making the bike slightly less twitchy with the added rake.
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