VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted September 03, 2005 03:51 PM
" I do feel for the people who are stranded but they were told to evacuate." [Quote from Harry]
Harry, You and I are freinds but when you have 100,000 people living below the poverty level and they depend on Public Transportation and have no families or Freinds close by, then the Government should have come through with Buses, Flat Bed Trucks or what ever and OFFER them a way out and have a place (Like a Tent City) for them to go. (Then if they dod not leave it was on them!) Tell me how you would evucate from where you are right now If You had no Vehicles, Money or a place to go. Middle class Americans have had it so good for so long that they cannot understand how poor people have it. I guess the people in the Hospitals that had no legs or on Resperators should have just gotten up and walked several hundred miles to God knows where and the DOctors and Nurses that stayed behind to help, Shame on them for doing their Jobs. Harry Grow up and look into what the real world problems are!
SV, 100% on Target!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
  
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted September 03, 2005 03:55 PM
Vince.... tell me how anything that you said (which I agree with) JUSTIFIES the terrorizing, looting and raping of the city by these people (skin color irrelevant). So some were left behind, some chose to stay.. others were too cracked out to care... How does that give them the right to do what they are doing? Shooting at rescue workers... looting stores.. you've seen it on the news..
I just dont see the connnection.
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gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
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posted September 03, 2005 08:45 PM
quote:
Vince.... tell me how anything that you said (which I agree with) JUSTIFIES the terrorizing, looting and raping of the city by these people (skin color irrelevant). So some were left behind, some chose to stay.. others were too cracked out to care... How does that give them the right to do what they are doing? Shooting at rescue workers... looting stores.. you've seen it on the news..
I just dont see the connnection.
It don't!!!!!!!!!!
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There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted September 03, 2005 08:46 PM
i would add, that i simply do not believe most of the people left behind had legitimate excuses. if you're so poor u can't even catch a bus out of the city, then you'de be starving to death, and tell me in such a situation u couldnt find someone driving out of the city themselves who wouldnt give u a ride? countless disasters have shown that when the shit htis the fan, people will help each other out there they can (cept for the lowlifes in NO causing trouble). maybe it sounds (or is) harsh, but i simply believe that "i can't" is used as a lazyman's excuse 95+% of the time.
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted September 03, 2005 09:13 PM
I am sorry to hear what happened to you, Rhino.
I can understand why the mayor and/or governor did not issue "shoot to kill" orders initially. The political outcry from some would have been dreadful indeed.
However, given what has happened, even to rescue workers, the only solution I can see is for enough of these murderous, violent, and/or thieving creatures to be shot dead, to the point where the remainder will be too fearful to do such things themselves.
It just goes to show how fast society can degenerate into chaos like past ages.
Be thankful you and your family are not there (if you are not) and especially not there without a gun. Obviously those that are there without a gun are helpless: God help them, as well as of course as many possible here that will. Thank you for the help you gave, Rhino.
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gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
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posted September 03, 2005 09:17 PM
GUNS are GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Buy a Gun so GUNNER "that's me" can buy a new ZX14!!!!!!
All joking aside I have a friend down there with FEMA and I can't reach him by cell. I hope the service is just down, or else I'll have to break out the MG42 and rock the house for those Bastids.
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There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
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NinjaNick
Needs a job
'08 ZX14 (Blue)
Posts: 4558
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posted September 04, 2005 04:11 AM
Gunner, you are one exclamation abusing motherfucker!!!!!!!!!!! HAHA, on all of your posts over ever since I first seen you post in DEC of last year.....just felt like pointing that out, cuz I don't have nothing better to do at 8am on a sunday morning right now.
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Rhino
Parking Attendant
Posts: 15
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posted September 04, 2005 05:23 AM
the cells are useless down there. But today word came that as the rescue workers will work under the guard of the military. They will continue to work that way until necessary.
That is great news for the teams still down there.
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blueford
Needs a job
Posts: 2984
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posted September 04, 2005 05:55 AM
Anybody heard of Led Zeppelin here?
They were this cool band that had lyric romanticism and orchestral majesty of unequaled genius.
You probably haven't heard of them, anyways,
One of my all-time favorites, the blues-inflected,
"When the Levee Breaks", "If it keeps on rainin',
levee's going to break ...
When the levee breaks, then you got to move."
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ZX12r04
Novice Class
Posts: 38
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posted September 04, 2005 09:16 AM
 Edited By: ZX12r04 on 4 Sep 2005 13:08
I just watched a black rights activist on the news and she said if they were all white they would of all been evacuated by now.
She should of said; They are stupid for not leaving before the storm hit also it's not nice to shoot at the rescue people.
Lets look at the big picture why didn't they save the black people faster maby it's because they bring it on themselves?
I wish they would quit blaming the white people for their stupidy.
If it wans't for the white people they would be fucked!
If the black people don't get their way they loot,steal,rape and kill, look at passed.
Black's (not all), but most of them think we owe them so they don't work and live off the the goverment, state ect.
The city I live in we build them housing give them free food,clothing ect and they still don't want to work.
Our jail is full 80%black mostly drug related, now we are building a bigger jail.
It's their fault they want to live this way and make a bad name for the themselves.
Or is it the white people's fault they brought them over as slaves and then set them free so they could cry for 140 years.
I hope this don't sound to racist but it's fact.
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted September 04, 2005 09:46 AM
that may be your point, but it certainloy isnt mine.... I'm not talking about black/white/purple/green... I'm asking the simple question:
What is giving these people (read... the people doing the crimes... irrelevant of color since crime sees no color) the right and justification to behave the way they are?
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pdb1964
Zone Head
Posts: 536
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posted September 04, 2005 10:32 AM
I don't think it has anything to do with "the rights and justification". In their minds, they can do the crimes and get away with it.
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted September 04, 2005 10:41 AM
Edited By: trenace on 4 Sep 2005 12:38
Nothing, of course.
A significant aspect of the problem (not the fundamental root cause however) is that, while it's understandable that any mayor or governor would be reluctant in today's times to issue "shoot them" orders on the first day -- the political outcry from a given spectrum would be horrible, just an avalanche of outrage -- that was what was needed, events have clearly proven.
If the violently lawless and thieving had been getting shot left and right and, as chance would have it many cases, shot dead, this would have greatly deterred further such lawlessness.
Allowing them to get away with it promoted it.
BTW, Canadians may not generally be aware that in America these things are in local purview and this principle is very important to us. It is the city and state that is responsible for maintaining their law and order, for directing their law and order, for directing their rescue efforts, etc. Even National Guard units are actually under state control: when one state requests the help of National Guard above and beyond their own, they come from units under the authority of other state governors. The federal government of course should provide a great deal of assistance in these situations but the governor of Louisiana -- for the state as a whole -- and the mayor of New Orleans are the ones responsible to direct what goes on. Anything else would be coup d'etat essentially.
In 9/11 our system worked fine: Rudy Giuliani, mayor of New York City, was able to do his job. I hope in the long run we will wind up being able to say that of these Louisiana officials.
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pdb1964
Zone Head
Posts: 536
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posted September 04, 2005 11:57 AM
Have you seen the Celine Dionne plea for help? What you think? I thought it was a bit over the top. But that is her way I guess.
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lietoome
Needs a job
Posts: 2033
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posted September 04, 2005 12:06 PM
Edited By: Editor on 4 Sep 2005 14:45
Ninja, !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(editted... too irritating to have to scroll to the right that far... stop that!)
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junior s
Pro
?
Posts: 1644
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posted September 04, 2005 01:18 PM
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF?
You kids play nice now .
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Get up off your ass and ride !!
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted September 05, 2005 06:55 PM
there is no excuse or reason
but i do want to add this:
the behavior being exhibited rightn ow IS NO DIFFERENT than their normal behavior.
those that are criminals now, were before. non-life-threatening stress does not cause a person to suddenly "become" a criminal.
their behavior, while contemptable, is NORMAL. do we hear about it normally? no because it was stopped up inside the city, and national media didn't CARE about the area, and there WERE no daily videos and reports from 'nawlins'
now, it seems REALLY bad because there are 24/7 news outlets on the scenes. they are recording what i daresay MOST new orleans residents deal with on a daily basis. shots fired, dead people, crime, robbery, rape etc.
has the crime rate gone up? sure. opportunists are there using the 'dire situation' as an excuse to act like thugs.
but they are the SAME ones that were perpetrating crimes 2 weeks ago. they just get to do it on national TV this week.
i feel nothing for the criminals that are doing what they are always doing, and are gonna get caught out now.
the people that are their victims deserve better. and where is the new orleans PD? the ones that showed up to work after the storm passed are too busy trying to keep aid workers safe from the VERY PEOPLE they are trying to help.
Rhino: saw one of the canine SARS team trucks heading north on I75 in georgia this afternoon.
thanks for helping out what you could, i hope your equipment gets replaced so that you can help more in the future.
  
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bovinespongiformencephalo
Pro
variant Kreutzfeldt-Jakob
Posts: 1060
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posted September 05, 2005 09:39 PM
A lot of looters ARE being shot and killed. Good work if you can get it. Anyone got a connection?
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted September 06, 2005 04:50 AM
Fish, sorry for the llate answe. NOTHING Justifies the Shooting at rescue people ever and I had no problem with The people doing that being shot and KILLED. Looting is an entirely different story.
ON Cnn it showed 2 headlines one with a black kid walking through the water with a bag of food and the Caption Back from Looting. The other one was a young white girl walking through the water and the caption read Person "Finds" Food. The ban the kid had was waay to small to house a Flat screen or any other kind of TV but you see the point and did the people on CNN..
As far as the people stealing TV's and other things. I have 2 thoughts. One, it shows you the dispair of Poor people that even when they have no place to take it and no electricity to operate it the "IDEA" of having it is so strong (Because of having nothing for so long) that they would rather steal a TV than take food. Stupid to me also. The 2nd thought on that was they are taking something from a place that was soon to be under water usually and would have been lost anyway so it would be a losss either way. I do not agree with the taking of anything that is not yours but if you see a car floating down the river out to sea and somehow you drag the car out of the river, I think a case can be made that it was abandoned property even though it was not voluntary! SV Was right on!
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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bovinespongiformencephalo
Pro
variant Kreutzfeldt-Jakob
Posts: 1060
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posted September 06, 2005 07:31 AM
I love all the justifications for looting. Some lazy asshole sits on the porch all day pissing and moaning because the government isn't doing enough for his poor, miserable ass. Another guy has the drive, will and determination to run a business. Disaster strikes both of them. Asshole "takes the opportunity to avenge himself on the society that keeps him down?" Not a fucking chance. He's still just the lazy, opportunistic scumbag he always was. Only the pickings have changed. Where's the pity for the business owner? All his hard work down the sewer and some people want to focus on the plight of the lazy assholes and justify their crimes. What bullshit.
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Otis
Needs a job
Captain Kickstand
Posts: 3028
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posted September 06, 2005 07:47 AM
An Unnatural Disaster: A Hurricane Exposes the Man-Made Disaster of the
Welfare State
by Robert Tracinski Sep 02, 2005 by Robert Tracinski It has taken four long
days for state and federal officials to figure out how to deal with the
disaster in New Orleans. I can't blame them, because it has also taken me
four long days to figure out what is going on there. The reason is that the
events there make no sense if you think that we are confronting a natural
disaster.
If this is just a natural disaster, the response for public officials is
obvious: you bring in food, water, and doctors; you send transportation to
evacuate refugees to temporary shelters; you send engineers to stop the
flooding and rebuild the city's infrastructure. For journalists, natural
disasters also have a familiar pattern: the heroism of ordinary people
pulling together to survive; the hard work and dedication of doctors,
nurses, and rescue workers; the steps being taken to clean up and rebuild.
Public officials did not expect that the first thing they would have to do
is to send thousands of armed troops in armored vehicle, as if they are
suppressing an enemy insurgency. And journalists--myself included--did not
expect that the story would not be about rain, wind, and flooding, but about
rape, murder, and looting.
But this is not a natural disaster. It is a man-made disaster.
The man-made disaster is not an inadequate or incompetent response by
federal relief agencies, and it was not directly caused by Hurricane
Katrina. This is where just about every newspaper and television channel has
gotten the story wrong.
The man-made disaster we are now witnessing in New Orleans did not happen
over the past four days. It happened over the past four decades. Hurricane
Katrina merely exposed it to public view.
The man-made disaster is the welfare state.
For the past few days, I have found the news from New Orleans to be
confusing. People were not behaving as you would expect them to behave in an
emergency--indeed, they were not behaving as they have behaved in other
emergencies. That is what has shocked so many people: they have been saying
that this is not what we expect from America. In fact, it is not even what
we expect from a Third World country.
When confronted with a disaster, people usually rise to the occasion. They
work together to rescue people in danger, and they spontaneously organize to
keep order and solve problems. This is especially true in America. We are an
enterprising people, used to relying on our own initiative rather than
waiting around for the government to take care of us. I have seen this a
hundred times, in small examples (a small town whose main traffic light had
gone out, causing ordinary citizens to get out of their cars and serve as
impromptu traffic cops, directing cars through the intersection) and large
ones (the spontaneous response of New Yorkers to September 11).
So what explains the chaos in New Orleans?
To give you an idea of the magnitude of what is going on, here is a
description from a Washington Times story:
"Storm victims are raped and beaten; fights erupt with flying fists, knives
and guns; fires are breaking out; corpses litter the streets; and police and
rescue helicopters are repeatedly fired on.
"The plea from Mayor C. Ray Nagin came even as National Guardsmen poured in
to restore order and stop the looting, carjackings and gunfire....
"Last night, Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco said 300 Iraq-hardened Arkansas
National Guard members were inside New Orleans with shoot-to-kill orders.
" 'These troops are...under my orders to restore order in the streets,' she
said. 'They have M-16s, and they are locked and loaded. These troops know
how to shoot and kill and they are more than willing to do so if necessary
and I expect they will.' "
The reference to Iraq is eerie. The photo that accompanies this article
shows National Guard troops, with rifles and armored vests, riding on an
armored vehicle through trash-strewn streets lined by a rabble of squalid,
listless people, one of whom appears to be yelling at them. It looks exactly
like a scene from Sadr City in Baghdad.
What explains bands of thugs using a natural disaster as an excuse for an
orgy of looting, armed robbery, and rape? What causes unruly mobs to storm
the very buses that have arrived to evacuate them, causing the drivers to
drive away, frightened for their lives? What causes people to attack the
doctors trying to treat patients at the Super Dome?
Why are people responding to natural destruction by causing further
destruction? Why are they attacking the people who are trying to help them?
Sherri figured it out first, and she figured it out on a sense-of-life
level. While watching the coverage last night on Fox News Channel, she told
me that she was getting a familiar feeling. She studied architecture at the
Illinois Institute of Chicago, which is located in the South Side of Chicago
just blocks away from the Robert Taylor Homes, one of the largest high-rise
public housing projects in America. "The projects," as they were known, were
infamous for uncontrollable crime and irremediable squalor. (They have
since, mercifully, been demolished.)
What Sherri was getting from last night's television coverage was a whiff of
the sense of life of "the projects." Then the "crawl"--the informational
phrases flashed at the bottom of the screen on most news channels--gave some
vital statistics to confirm this sense: 75% of the residents of New Orleans
had already evacuated before the hurricane, and of the 300,000 or so who
remained, a large number were from the city's public housing projects. Jack
Wakeland then gave me an additional, crucial fact: early reports from CNN
and Fox indicated that the city had no plan for evacuating all of the
prisoners in the city's jails--so they just let many of them loose. There is
no doubt a significant overlap between these two populations--that is, a
large number of people in the jails used to live in the housing projects,
and vice versa.
There were many decent, innocent people trapped in New Orleans when the
deluge hit--but they were trapped alongside large numbers of people from two
groups: criminals--and wards of the welfare state, people selected, over
decades, for their lack of initiative and self-induced helplessness. The
welfare wards were a mass of sheep--on whom the incompetent administration
of New Orleans unleashed a pack of wolves.
All of this is related, incidentally, to the apparent incompetence of the
city government, which failed to plan for a total evacuation of the city,
despite the knowledge that this might be necessary. But in a city corrupted
by the welfare state, the job of city officials is to ensure the flow of
handouts to welfare recipients and patronage to political supporters--not to
ensure a lawful, orderly evacuation in case of emergency.
No one has really reported this story, as far as I can tell. In fact, some
are already actively distorting it, blaming President Bush, for example, for
failing to personally ensure that the Mayor of New Orleans had drafted an
adequate evacuation plan. The worst example is an execrable piece from the
Toronto Globe and Mail, by a supercilious Canadian who blames the chaos on
American "individualism." But the truth is precisely the opposite: the chaos
was caused by a system that was the exact opposite of individualism.
What Hurricane Katrina exposed was the psychological consequences of the
welfare state. What we consider "normal" behavior in an emergency is
behavior that is normal for people who have values and take the
responsibility to pursue and protect them. People with values respond to a
disaster by fighting against it and doing whatever it takes to overcome the
difficulties they face. They don't sit around and complain that the
government hasn't taken care of them. They don't use the chaos of a disaster
as an opportunity to prey on their fellow men.
But what about criminals and welfare parasites? Do they worry about saving
their houses and property? They don't, because they don't own anything. Do
they worry about what is going to happen to their businesses or how they are
going to make a living? They never worried about those things before. Do
they worry about crime and looting? But living off of stolen wealth is a way
of life for them.
The welfare state--and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and
encourages--is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that
has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting.
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gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
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posted September 06, 2005 08:16 AM
With a little luck some of these thugs died in the process.
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There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
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bovinespongiformencephalo
Pro
variant Kreutzfeldt-Jakob
Posts: 1060
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posted September 06, 2005 10:05 AM
Isn't Louisiana the "sportsman's paradise?" They could sell hunting licenses to help defray the cost of the cleanup.
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foxylady
Expert Class
Posts: 122
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posted September 06, 2005 11:06 AM
There was a story on the news this morning, a reporter walking through walmart with looters all around interviewing some of them, he asked one man how he felt about looting. don't remember his exact words but the gist of it was the police even told him to take what he needs. The reporter went a couple isles down and there was some police loading up a shopping cart, when the reporter and camera were seen one started walking away, the reporter asked what she was doing, she said 'my job' he asked what that was, she said 'stopping looters', he asked how she was doing that as there were looters all around, she said 'I see them' and continued on her way.
I am sure there are some innocent people down there who have been caught and normally would not resort to stealling, but when faced with all this, possibly a family that needs food and clothing and even the police telling you it is ok to take what you need, it would be extremely tempting even for the most law abiding citizens, let alone those who live this way to start with.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted September 06, 2005 11:19 AM
Otis you said one thing I totally forgot about."The let the Criminals out of Jail"! it was hard for me to understand why anyone would be shooting at some one sent to help them.
People like "Long Name" continue to say that anyone not working and living off the government is Lazy. I hate to tell you this, but there are going to be a lot of these people and you better not call them Lazy because they will be our Soliders from Iraq with legs and arms missing and they cannot work. Some with no outward sign but so mentally messed up you would not want them to work. The #1 thing I notice is only people well off seem to think that people not working are Lazy and WANTING to live in a Welfare state. Maybe we should go back to a time when all Black People were working and it was the rich whites that were not working. The Rich whites liked this system so much that they fought and died to keep it. Even when it was over, they devised ways to keep it called "Share Croping". They gave the poor Blacks a piece of land to work and deducted the payments from the work they did. They also owned the only store where they bought everything and as the song said, "I owe my SOul to the COmpany Store"!
I watched in amazement as the Head of FEMA kept saying that we warned them all to leave and this is what happened when they did not head the warning. Finally I saw Tim Russert and Ted Kopple ask, "If you knew they needed to leave and you know that there were 100,000 people living below the poverty level (No money or transportation) then why did you not bring Buses, Flat Bed Trucks, Trains and Boats and at least offer them a way out. 2nd question was where did you have the Shelters for them to go to?? 3rd Question was since everyone knew that the Super Dome was the Evacuation site, why were there no stacks of food and water?
No answer to any of these questions
Then to the President "Yes Otis, your hero on vacation"! I saw where the Bush administration was persented with the Army Corp of ENgineers plan to raise the sinking Levees and strenghtened the weak one in 2002, 2003. and 2004. The cost was between $500 Million and $800 Million. The administration stated that he had a Tax Cut and War to pay for and sent $100 Million. Surprise Surprise the Levees failed.
To the Jailed Public Officials and ones still out of Jail in New Orleans who were taking the Public Money for the Levees and spending them on Gambling Casinos and other things they had control Over. And last the Poor Black people that owned their Homes, Paid taxes for years and Years worked all of their life for low wages. Now to be called Lazy, Welfare takers and stupid for not wanting to leave their home they worked hard for and paid for when they had no place to go! They were really dumb not to leave with no way and no where to go and Shame on the even more stupid to believe in the Govenrment and go to the SUper Dome!. I guess the real stupid people were the Patients in the Hosptials that had the nerve to be sick and in a Hospital when a storm was coming and how about the DOctors & Nurses who actually had cars and some place to go and they did not know better than to stay and take care of the sick! They sure got what they deserved.
The #1 thing I cannot understand is the Religious Right? They believe in the bible but not all of it. The part about "You are your Brother's Keeper" I was Hungry and you feed me not! These type of things and then the leader of one group even saying that the leader of a SOuth AMerican country should be "Taken Out" (as in Killed) then trying to deny he said it when he realized that the Bible says that Thou Shall not Kill "PERIOD"! it does not exempt anyone! I am really fed up with the Haves telling the Have nots to pull themselves up by their Boot Straps then they have no boots or straps.
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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