kllrvet
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posted August 12, 2005 06:14 PM
 Edited By: kllrvet on 12 Aug 2005 19:17
Not going into neutral----- The answer
A few weeks ago, I posted question about my bike not shifting into neutral. I finally got it fixed, and now know why it was happening.
I had removed the positive neutral finder, and many decided that was the problem, but as it turns out, that was not it. I have owned 2 different Zx12's. For the first one, I bought a Falicon billet basket, new steels and fibers, and the Muzzy hub set up. After I installed it, I noticed the bike was hard to shift without banging into 1st gear, and it wouldn't go into neutral when cold. I figured that stack height was too tall, as the clutch was brand new. I sold that bike, but kept the entire clutch, and moved it into the second 12 that I bought. Funny, it showed the same symptoms. I also noticed that the clutch was very noisy at idle as well (did that on the first bike as well). The bike rode okay so I just ignored the problems.
Now fast forward to the past few weeks: http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=1&TID=18238&set_time=
The problem was this:
Too much oil in the clutch!! I installed the stock hub and related parts (kept the billet basket in though), and viola, it shifts and sounds like stock (neutral is no longer a problem as well)!! As it turns out, the billet basket holds too much oil as the basket is solid, and does not allow much oil to escape as the clutch spins.
So, removing the neutral finder was NOT the problem!!
Tony
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scooter trash
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posted August 12, 2005 07:05 PM
I don't think so. ;-)
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kllrvet
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posted August 12, 2005 07:39 PM
Why don't you think so? The bike works fine now. Would you think that I would just make it up?
Tony
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scooter trash
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posted August 12, 2005 07:46 PM
No need to get defensive, Tony.
You cannot "over oil" a wet clutch.
They are wet. They like to be wet. They are born to be wet.
The bad shit happens when they don't get enough oil.
- Blitz
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kllrvet
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posted August 12, 2005 07:57 PM
Edited By: kllrvet on 12 Aug 2005 20:59
Well, in this case you are wrong. Don't know what else to tell you. I changed nothing else, and It works. What more can I say.
The extra oil caused the plates to stick together, hence the banging in gear, harsh shifts, etc. Also the reason why the clutch dragged a bit with the lever on the bar.
Tony
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herk
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posted August 12, 2005 08:24 PM
well it makes sense to me.......................................if the plates are flooded with oil and there is friction created because of the high volume of oil where there normally is an air gap.........just like a torque converter, no oil, no spin, oil=spinning of the driven member.
Mine does the same thing cold, it's a real bitch to get into neutral.
Blitz, how's the bike(s) coming?
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zxlnt
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posted August 12, 2005 09:37 PM
I can't believe ANY clutch no matter what for 12R holds toooo much oil. They run extremely dry. Oiling the clutch sufficiently has always been an issue for the 12R. Must be some other cause than too much oil. In any case at least its working..
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kllrvet
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posted August 12, 2005 11:17 PM
The cause is the basket AND having the clutch modified to flow more oil. Since the basket is SOLID, it retains a LOT more oil. My fibers and steels would come out just dripping of oil. I could actually pull out the entire stack in piece since they were stuck together will all of the oil retained.
You don't have to believe it, but this is the problem and as hard to swallow as it may be, the cure.
Tony
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kllrvet
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posted August 12, 2005 11:19 PM
quote:
No need to get defensive, Tony.
You cannot "over oil" a wet clutch.
They are wet. They like to be wet. They are born to be wet.
The bad shit happens when they don't get enough oil.
- Blitz
Things happen when they get too wet as well. The problem I had was one of them, and excesive slippage is another. Ever wonder why they pull a Pro Stock bike's clutch apart after every pass? Not to replace damaged or burned up parts, to dry it of oil.
Tony
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gunner
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posted August 13, 2005 12:04 AM
quote:
quote:
No need to get defensive, Tony.
You cannot "over oil" a wet clutch.
They are wet. They like to be wet. They are born to be wet.
The bad shit happens when they don't get enough oil.
- Blitz
Things happen when they get too wet as well. The problem I had was one of them, and excesive slippage is another. Ever wonder why they pull a Pro Stock bike's clutch apart after every pass? Not to replace damaged or burned up parts, to dry it of oil.
Tony
Ah Tony, I really don't want in on this too deep but you're wrong by about 180 degree about the prostock clutch deal. Sorry man but slightly wrong is one thing but totally wrong is another.
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zxlnt
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posted August 13, 2005 01:04 AM
Every single time I have taken the clutch apart on my bike, its been almost bone dry. Hardly any oil in there at all. Thats why the Muzzy Clutch Hub Kit is out there, the clutch puller mod, all trying to get more oil to the clutch.
And yeah they pull the clutches apart on the pro stock bikes to freshen them up not to clear out excess oil.. lol..
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entropy
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posted August 13, 2005 03:12 AM
Soooooo... Kllvet,
are you saying ALL those folks with Falicon billet baskets and the Muzzy hub/bushing outa be having problems with "over oiling" the clutch and disengagement problems????
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CrotchRocket
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posted August 13, 2005 06:08 AM
I wish that the billet basket held the oil in the clutches while the clutch pack spins!!!
Then my clutches would last alot longer do to plenty of lubrication as that would also keep the clutches a bit cooler!!!
By the way, with the OEM clutch basket now your clutches are getting more oil to them!!!
Hey Kllrvet as a friend of mine once said, use the K.I.S.S. method of mechanics!!!
The reason that your having the same problem with the clutch on both 12s is because of the clutch set up...The short stack height + the heavy duty clutch springs is the reason why the clunk into first gear is hard and why the bike would creep on you with the clutch lever in when cold!!!...Dont take this personal or that im making fun of you...Dont you think that the engineers over at Kawasaki motors R-D know what works best for the way THEY made the 12???
Search this site for a clutch set up, trust the guys that posted which set up is best, try it and you will be very happy with the results!!!
We are here to help each other, as we are not like the dealerships looking to take your money!!!...Just have an open mind and try what we have already done!!!
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eastbaydave
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posted August 13, 2005 06:40 AM
quote:
Every single time I have taken the clutch apart on my bike, its been almost bone dry. Hardly any oil in there at all. Thats why the Muzzy Clutch Hub Kit is out there, the clutch puller mod, all trying to get more oil to the clutch.
I still have the harsh into first gear KA-KRUNCH, as well as the hard shifting while using the clutch (works great clutchless upshifts.) Mine's pretty dry every time I pull it apart (Muzzy clutch & basket), & I have yet to find the problem. Have about given up & just riding it...
I am curious about the "clutch puller mod" as I can't seem to find it? What is the puller mod? Please discribe in detail....
Thanks! I'm grasping at straws here...
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00' ZX12R sold
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kllrvet
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posted August 13, 2005 07:41 AM
Edited By: kllrvet on 13 Aug 2005 08:45
quote:
The reason that your having the same problem with the clutch on both 12s is because of the clutch set up...The short stack height + the heavy duty clutch springs is the reason why the clunk into first gear is hard and why the bike would creep on you with the clutch lever in when cold!!!...Dont take this personal or that im making fun of you...Dont you think that the engineers over at Kawasaki motors R-D know what works best for the way THEY made the 12???
Okay, if that is the case, why doesn't the bike clunk, creep, or exhibit hard shifting any more? I still have the heavy springs, and the same clutch pack in it.
The components in question were not Kawasaki, so I don't understand how this applies.
quote:
Just have an open mind and try what we have already done
Thats what I did when I decided to buy the clutch set up that I was using and that was when the problems started. I asked questions of people in the "know", and was told the symptoms I had were normal. Since I wasn't really having more than a slight anoyance at the time, I just accepted that answer.
Tony
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zxlnt
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posted August 13, 2005 07:41 AM
Clutch puller mod is grinding a flat spot on the puller shaft and or drilling a hole perpindicular to the long axis to flow more oil...
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kllrvet
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posted August 13, 2005 07:43 AM
quote:
Soooooo... Kllvet,
are you saying ALL those folks with Falicon billet baskets and the Muzzy hub/bushing outa be having problems with "over oiling" the clutch and disengagement problems????
No, but I was, and I have described what fixed it. Some people my experience this problem, and I have offered an option that works.
Tony
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kllrvet
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posted August 13, 2005 08:37 AM
quote:
Ah Tony, I really don't want in on this too deep but you're wrong by about 180 degree about the prostock clutch deal. Sorry man but slightly wrong is one thing but totally wrong is another.
I am no expert on any of this. So please enlighten me. I have a co-worked who runs a Pro Stock bike in the AMA/Prostar series. He told me that he removes the clutch after every pass to clean the oil off ( I have personally cleaned the oil off myself). He said it was to keep slippage at a minimum, and even showed me what a wet clutch looks like on his datalogger.
As a matter of fact, he has silicone in the passages in the hub to keep oil off of the clutch pack as much as possible. Our shop also maintians the #1 Pro Mod plate holder bike as well, and you quessed it, the clutch is kept as dry as possible.
Tony
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Aughtsix
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posted August 13, 2005 09:56 AM
I find that too much chunky peanut butter between the steels and the fibers can also cause problems. But the bread - especially the cheap white bread - soaks up any excess oil. Go light with the jelly though...
By the way - y'all .org folks suck for not telling me about this site. I'm hurt. I'm going now.
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gunner
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posted August 13, 2005 11:16 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
No need to get defensive, Tony.
You cannot "over oil" a wet clutch.
They are wet. They like to be wet. They are born to be wet.
The bad shit happens when they don't get enough oil.
- Blitz
Things happen when they get too wet as well. The problem I had was one of them, and excesive slippage is another. Ever wonder why they pull a Pro Stock bike's clutch apart after every pass? Not to replace damaged or burned up parts, to dry it of oil.
Tony
Ah Tony, I really don't want in on this too deep but you're wrong by about 180 degree about the prostock clutch deal. Sorry man but slightly wrong is one thing but totally wrong is another.
I honestly don't know what the Prostock bike guys are doing at this time with their clutch packs. However whatever they're doin won't have much comparision to what is going on in a street driven motorcycle.
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matt sterbator
Pro
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posted August 13, 2005 11:16 AM
I don't see the relevance in comparing a prostock bike with a slider/lock up clutch and car tire, that they don't want to slip... to a street bike with a hand clutch that you NEED to slip.
I've had instances where the transmission didn't want to shift into neutral. It would skip neutral and go straight to 2nd gear, no matter how soft or slow I tried it. This would normally happen right after a pass at the track. To fix it, I'd readjust the cable. I've also had times whewre the clutch would drag and the bike was hard to shift gears. To fiz that, I'd adjust the cable. I've also had it not want to go to neutral without making any passes at all. I'd pull up to a light or whatever, and I'd have issues finding neutral. I'd rock the bike back and forth, try again, and it worked. This has happened on both of my 12Rs, with completely stock clutches, and with Muzzy/Falicon baskets and clutch hubs.
You never said whether or not your first 12R had the same problems with or without the Muzzy hub and basket. The only thing you said was the same, was the noise and clunkiness, which is pretty common for the set up. I guess that if it was the clutch, you would have had the same exact issues on the first bike as the second. I assume that because you never mentioned it, the PNF was never removed from the first bike. I'll also assume that because you never mentioned the second bike having the problem until you removed the PNF.
So first bike never has the neutral problem like the second bike, they had the exact same clutches... one bike has the PNF removed. The "fix" is replacing a part that apparently worked in another bike that still had the PNF. On top of that, you have a problem with your 12R that everyone else wishes they had, in that your clutch apparently gets too much oil. So please understand how people are questioning this, as it really makes no sense 
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trenace
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posted August 13, 2005 11:29 AM
Edited By: trenace on 13 Aug 2005 12:41
I don't have enough knowledge of clutches to say that the argument must be right or wrong -- and actually I would guess that only further experiment could answer that conclusively -- but it seems to be going too far to say that kllrvet's argument makes "no sense."
If we do not have experience with having some perhaps-vast amount of oil trapped in our clutches, and are comparing to situations with relatively little oil, how can we be so positive that there may not be the relatively subtle resulting effect kllrvet describes?
At any rate, for some reason with the stock hub he did not have this effect, had same performance as all-stock; but with the Muzzy hub of which the only difference is said to be the oil supply, he had the problem.
To say it makes "no sense" to conclude from that that it may be oil-related, I think is too far.
A nice alternate test, but hardly one we can expect kllrvet to do, would be to see if the problem also can be made to disappear by modifying the billet basket to allow better oil drainage. If that also fixes the problem, then that would be further evidence that excess oil actually does cause this relatively subtle effect at least in his bike -- if not then it would indicate that it was coincidental but not causative.
At any rate he certainly raises an interesting and possibly very useful point: do we really get better flow and cooling with the drilled hub, if that oil is blocked from draining back? It seems the answer should be no: we get more oil in there but it just stays there, there is no greater flow if it cannot flow back out or can only barely do so. Interesting question to which I don't know the answer but would like to.
A substantive and important question is: does the billet basket (as is) allow a reasonable or good rate of drainage? To look at the thing, it's not obvious how it could. Perhaps it does not, just as kllrvet suggests?
And if not, then so much for the idea of greater cooling from greater oil flow from the drilled hub.
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matt sterbator
Pro
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posted August 13, 2005 01:03 PM
quote:
I don't have enough knowledge of clutches to say that the argument must be right or wrong -- and actually I would guess that only further experiment could answer that conclusively -- but it seems to be going too far to say that kllrvet's argument makes "no sense."
Perhaps, but this is the same guy who wondered why he couldn't get the bike into neutral after he removed the Positive Neutral Finder, and now says that his 12R does something that no one elses does.
quote:
If we do not have experience with having some perhaps-vast amount of oil trapped in our clutches, and are comparing to situations with relatively little oil, how can we be so positive that there may not be the relatively subtle resulting effect kllrvet describes?
That's just it... no one I know or heard of with a 12R, has experience with VAST amounts of oil in their clutch.
quote:
At any rate, for some reason with the stock hub he did not have this effect, had same performance as all-stock; but with the Muzzy hub of which the only difference is said to be the oil supply, he had the problem.
You forget that he had that same exact clutch set up in a different bike, and never mentioned any problems with finding neutral.
quote:
To say it makes "no sense" to conclude from that that it may be oil-related, I think is too far.
I don't think it is. I've done a fair amount of dealing with an overy DRY clutch, using the same EXACT parts he's using. Only difference is that my PNF is still in the bike.
quote:
A nice alternate test, but hardly one we can expect kllrvet to do, would be to see if the problem also can be made to disappear by modifying the billet basket to allow better oil drainage. If that also fixes the problem, then that would be further evidence that excess oil actually does cause this relatively subtle effect at least in his bike -- if not then it would indicate that it was coincidental but not causative.
Again, the problem everyone else seems to have with the billet basket and Muzzy hub is that there isn't enough oil supplied to the clutch to suggest that it doesn't have sufficient drainage.
quote:
At any rate he certainly raises an interesting and possibly very useful point: do we really get better flow and cooling with the drilled hub, if that oil is blocked from draining back? It seems the answer should be no: we get more oil in there but it just stays there, there is no greater flow if it cannot flow back out or can only barely do so. Interesting question to which I don't know the answer but would like to.
The point about oil flow to the clutch with the Muzzy hub was raised a long time ago. There are arguments for and against it. The vast majority of evidence suggests that the hub doesn't afford enough extra oil to cool the clutch pack, let alone supply so much oil that you'd have to worry about it draining out. As I've stated before, every time I've pulled a clutch, it's been DRY, dry clutch in a wet clutch set up = HOT clutch.
quote:
A substantive and important question is: does the billet basket (as is) allow a reasonable or good rate of drainage? To look at the thing, it's not obvious how it could. Perhaps it does not, just as kllrvet suggests?
Drainage isn't the problem :P
quote:
And if not, then so much for the idea of greater cooling from greater oil flow from the drilled hub.
Hey Rick, interesting idea, lol
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kllrvet
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posted August 13, 2005 02:52 PM
I did indeed have the Falicon/Muzzy set up in the first 12. I also had all of the same issues That I have describe here, with the exception of not being able to find neutral. The old bike did have trouble finding neutral when it was cold, but once it had been running for 10-15 minutes, it was fine in that respect.
The removal of the PNF, wasn't the problem as you might think it was. There was already a problem that it masked by nature of how the PNF works. Removing it just allowed the problem to be more pronounced.Now that I have restriced the oil flow again, it will go into neutral just fine, shifts smooth hot and cold, and makes much less noise.
Have you ever considered that MAYBE with the solid basket keeping the oil contained, that there may be adequate oil present? I really don't know for sure. I may start to abuse the clutch, and cook the living shit out of it right away. So far, the point I have been trying to make is that the extra oil kept the plates stuck together, and caused drag. The end result was the problems I have been having.
Matt, I get get the impression that you think I am a dumb ass for removing the PNF. If so, so be it, your opinion of me is of no consequense at all. I have only been trying to share my problem, and now THE FIX, like it or not. Take my results however you want, but the bottom line, it worked, after all else failed. I was very through trying many differents steps to remedy the problem I was having.
The mention of Pro Stock/Pro Mod clutches was only ment to reply as a reply to Scooter Trash/Blitz's post. But I will tell you this, since it seems that you don't know it: Pro Stock bikes are launched with a hand clutch, and on both Pro Stock and Pro Mod, they do indeed want slippage. They intentionally "tune" the slippage depending on traction at a given track on a given day. They do it with springs though, not oil.
Tony
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted August 13, 2005 04:11 PM
guys, guys guys....
Oil does NOT build up in the basket, UNLESS you fill up the clutch housing.
When the engine is on, the basket is alway spinning, and even with no holes, the spinning basket throw oil to its outer edge and then out the side. Oil cannot pool in the basket unless the clutch housing is filling up.
Excess stack height wrt the puller position will assuredly cause the clutch to NOT disengage cleanly. Too much oil will NOT cause the clutch plates to "stick together". As soon as you let the clutch out the hub and steels spin and fling oil out.
But don't wait on the hub/steels to fling oil out, as soon as you start the engine, in gear or not, clutch in or no, the fibers are being spun by the basket, and they fling oil off.
Only a constant flow of oil into the hub will keep any oil in the clutch pack.
Look to your clutch, basket, puller set up not the Falicon basket.
I suggest that killvet changed the config of the puller, perhaps with the washer/roller bearing, or the position of the washer behind the hub, or some other thing when changing out the basket.
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