posted February 25, 2002 08:50 AM
Idle Quality I still get emails from people asking how to get rid of the idle hunt when a pipe has been put on.
I cant understand why so many people find it objectionable.
Would they rather have had mild cams and lost 20 HP?
You could buy a Busa if you wanted 20 HP less and a smooth idle.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted February 25, 2002 08:53 AM
The best thing you can do is to give them a technical description why the idle is rough. Port velocity, etc.
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82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
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posted February 25, 2002 09:54 AM
ok here's one for ya.......... Jim,
I do understand the idle hunt somewhat. When you go to a full system you eliminate back pressure, then when couple that with the fact that the 12 has a pretty radical cam profile some idle fluctuation is gonna happen.
I wasn't very happy with the way my bike was idling after I put the Yosh and the PC3r on, played with a few maps, and stuck with the one that the bike seemed to run its' best with. Then I concentrated on the idle hunt, got it fairly smooth, but it was still a tad quirky. Tolerable, but quirky.
Fast forward to a few nights ago, I have a quick connect for a battery tender hooked up to my battery. I was going over the bike and just for the hell of it I took my meter and took a voltage check,.....nada. So I pull the battery out to inspect the situation and find the inline fuse is messed up, it didn't look blown, but it read "Open". So I replaced the fuse and put everything back together took my voltage checks and everything was fine. I cranked the bike (which was cold) with the fast idle on, let it run for just a bit, then flipped the fast idle off. That's when I was shocked (not electrically ), the bike was idling very nice. WAY better than it had.
I know that the battery quick connect had nothing to do with this, but could it be that because the ECU had no power there for a little while, and sort of "reset" itself when powered back up have anything to do with this????? That's the only explanation I can come up with. I rode the hell out of the thing all day yesterday and it idled great, very consistent. Only noticably hunts when cold, which is perfectly understandable. It doesn't idle as smooth as a stocker, but it's pretty damned smooth for a piped 12 IMHO. FYI idle speed is about 1150 rpms.
What's your take?????
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
posted February 25, 2002 10:50 AM
I have a slight hunt with my Yosh, I set the idle to 1100 rpms. I think it sounds cool. It's not a couple Muzzys I have heard where it goes up and down some 200 rpm's mine is only like 50-100rpms and sounds like big cams in there. I like it.
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posted February 25, 2002 11:09 AM
????
quote:my stock zx12 idles between 1500 and 2000, mostly 1500
is that ok? it just turned 1900 miles, no work whatsoever has been done to it yet
Dude that sounds a little bit high to me. I'd idle it down to about 1100 rpms tops. I bet your shit gets hot sitting at stoplights in warm weather. 2k,.......DAMN!!!!!!!! I'd fix that shit asap.
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
posted February 25, 2002 11:56 AM
...and would you like some cheese with that whine? ...I like my 'lumpy idle hunt' sound from my full oval Muzzy...and I wish I had more 'gear whine' as I'm having fun with this beast of a bike...the 'mechanical noise' from a high-perf machine makes my nipples hard...I'm sportin' a chub just thinking about it...I like the sound of gear-drives and a healthy, menacing exhaust tune in my play toys...c'mon, you gearheads understand this, don't you?... ____________
...just relax...my dog wants to use only one of your legs...
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Posts: 4767
posted February 25, 2002 12:06 PM
ok Jim,
I'll do a "Get All" after work today but I can assure you it still has the correct map in it. I fired the bike up with the yosh before I got the PC3r on and it was a hunting MF. I ran the hell out of the bike yesterday with nary a pop,flat spot, or anything. It ran better than it ever has, I was very impressed with it. To the point that I'm leaving the map alone, unless by some chance there is something screwy looking with it. I asked everyone I rode with yesterday to take note and see if they smelled any gas, or saw and black smoke come from my bike because I didn't want to run it rich. Everybody said it was "clean", and they got plenty of opportunities to see it because I flogged the piss out of it down on GRR.
I'll get the map today and look it all over, timing table as well. I'll let you know what I find, but I ain't changing nothin'. Do you want a copy of the map.
Just kiddin' I know you've got tons of time and testing in your map.
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
posted February 25, 2002 01:07 PM
How about this.... I'm using Redelk's (Dave in Daytona) map. My bike is way erratic at idle. Cruising below 3000 rpm is unthinkable. Bike lurches bad around 2200-2800. Guess it is time to get a custom map, huh?
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posted February 25, 2002 01:14 PM
Have you tried..........
quote:How about this.... I'm using Redelk's (Dave in Daytona) map. My bike is way erratic at idle. Cruising below 3000 rpm is unthinkable. Bike lurches bad around 2200-2800. Guess it is time to get a custom map, huh?
Have you tried to edit the map any? Do you think it is leaning out? Look at your numbers in that rpm range and TP. You are probably running a Muzzy exhaust, correct? Compare your current map to Muzzy's base map in this area, it may give you some ideas as to which direction to take. If it runs good everywhere else but the lower rpm area, I'd try to play with the map some and see what happens. You can always go back to the map you are running now.
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
posted February 25, 2002 02:14 PM
No PC3r here, & w/Akrapovic it only hunts very ocasionally when hot. Like if I ride it 6 miles across town to the dealer for parts. Park it for 20/30 minutes, then restart warm without fast idle. THEN it will hunt only until I pull away & go through the gears; then it stops. The funny thing is this is BETTER than it was w/the stock pipe. It also seems to have lost the lean surge I had while cruising freeway @ steady speeds (70-80ish mph.)
This is why I haven't put anything on it yet. It seems to run just fine excepting engine braking backfires that come & go (sometimes it pops, sometimes it doesn't- like when approaching a light & downshifting.) Weird... The pipe exit looks rich if anything...mid-dark grey carboned up...
Now I'm not sure which way to go...leave it & ride?
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Enjoy the ride!
02' ZRX1200
00' ZX12R sold
Have you tried to edit the map any? Do you think it is leaning out? Look at your numbers in that rpm range and TP. You are probably running a Muzzy exhaust, correct? Compare your current map to Muzzy's base map in this area, it may give you some ideas as to which direction to take. If it runs good everywhere else but the lower rpm area, I'd try to play with the map some and see what happens. You can always go back to the map you are running now.
Haven't got the program downloaded into my old laptop yet, but I will try that as soon as I do. Muzzy full Ti, Muzzy ignition advancer, modded factory filters, PC 3 (soon to be 3R), and that's about it.
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RED NINJAS RULE!!
posted February 25, 2002 05:08 PM
Kawachan, I've tried several maps and played with the settings a little to get rid of the big surge around 2500rpm and nothing has worked. It'll cruise okay at those rpms but when you're slowly going through that spot, hang on cause it's gonna take off. I'm getting pretty used to it.
posted February 25, 2002 05:32 PM
WTF?!?!?! Kawachan and KrexKen, you guys are KILLING me!!!
now, Kawachan, you can be excused because I don't think you've been around as long as Krex, but daggonnit Krex, I thought you knew how to eliminate 90% of that 2200-2900 surge! (ok, maybe not, but I enjoy slinging crap)
Wish I could give credit where it is due, but i cannot remember who (on this board) I got this from....
It worked for me BIG TIME. I was at Deals Gap and spent a lot of time between 2000-3000rpm and had no complaints at all! (and before the change above, I was flippin' out about it)
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posted February 25, 2002 05:48 PM
surge Man I'm glad I'm not having any surging, but it sounds like it can be remedied.
Y2K,
I looked at my map this afternoon and it was fine. I can't explain what happened,but I know I like the way the bike idles now just fine. Another thing I failed to mention earlier, before the "mystery fix" when the bike was cold and I used the fast idle to start it the bike would fire up and run a couple seconds then die, then when I restarted it again it would keep running. I didn't like that either because my bike has always cranked very well. It's never died on me that I can recall. I was writting the cranking issue off as a quirk with the map settings and was going to work on it when I could. No need to now, I started the thing this afternoon after I checked the map and it ran like a sewing machine. I let it run for a bit on fast idle, maybe 60 sec.,flipped off the fast idle and it hunted just a little because it was still cold then leveled off nicely. Runs as smooth as a I think a piped 12 can at idle. Go figure......
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
posted February 25, 2002 06:03 PM
Edited By: krexken on 25 Feb 2002 18:11
The map you sent me has these settings you mentioned but with my new motor I've been using other maps for fear of being lean in some areas. Guess I shoulda looked at why yours worked. Getting a map dyno made on Wed. Hope it helps but if not, I'll try your suggestions for sure. Thanks
posted February 25, 2002 10:33 PM
Idle Surge Again Whenever the list discusses fuel maps no one ever mentions altitude as a factor affecting A/F ratios. I live at 3700 ft and have found that most of the maps on Easy's site are too rich in almost all zones. I have a full Muzzy and found that the only way I could control idle surge was by leaning out the idle fuel zones:
500 2 -1 5 5
1000 -16 -2 5 -2
1500 -13 -10 -2 -2
2000 -10 -8 0 1
I think the aggressive cam timing overlap on the 12, as mentioned, is the main contributing factor to idle surge. When you reduce backpressure the stock ECU fuel delivery is too rich for the idle engine loads (friction, compression, pumping loads) and the rpm increases. The mass air flow sensor, throttle position sensor and intake manifold pressure sensor see the increasing rpm with a 0 throttle position and the ECU cuts fuel to reduce rpm. This cycle causes the surging when using the stock fuel map. To minimize it when adding an aftermarket exhaust you need to lean out the idle not enrichen it and if you live at a higher altitude you may need to lean it out even more.
Inefficient injectors when operated at short duty cycles, I think, is also a contributing factor. On some of the newer bikes they are advertising injectors with more smaller orifices in the injector nozzle for a better atomization of the fuel. This I understand smooths out the throttle jerkyness at low rpm & short duty cycles. Some bikes also use an exhaust valve which varies back pressure with rpm to control surging.
To make a long story short if you are having trouble with idle surging, try leaning out the idle zones with the idle set at less than 1000 rpm.
quote:my stock zx12 idles between 1500 and 2000, mostly 1500
is that ok? it just turned 1900 miles, no work whatsoever has been done to it yet
Dude that sounds a little bit high to me. I'd idle it down to about 1100 rpms tops. I bet your shit gets hot sitting at stoplights in warm weather. 2k,.......DAMN!!!!!!!! I'd fix that shit asap.
thanks, thats what i was thinking, i will have it looked into
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Posts: 602
posted February 26, 2002 04:46 AM
But my headlight stays so bright..... You need to periodically adjust the idle for the first couple of thousand miles. The idle will creep up as things start to break in. It is normal and is extremely easy for YOU to adjust.
Rocket
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posted February 25, 2002 08:50 AM
posted February 25, 2002 09:54 AM
), the bike was idling very nice. WAY better than it had.
posted February 25, 2002 11:09 AM
Edited By: 
posted February 25, 2002 12:06 PM
posted February 25, 2002 10:33 PM
