entropy
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posted July 31, 2005 08:08 AM
Doug Meyer: main bearing clearance, splitting hairs...
Doug (any one else please feel free to chime in!)
Hmmmm.... This may seem like splitting hairs, but hey, my bike is my "Senior Science Fair Project" 
measured my mains this morning with all Blues:
#1 main journal = 1.4557, tq-ed blue bearing = 1.4582, clearance = .0025"
#2 main journal = 1.4556, tq-ed blue bearing = 1.4578, clearance = .0022"
#3 main journal = 1.4555, tq-ed blue bearing = 1.4578, clearance = .0023"
#4 main journal = 1.4558, tq-ed blue bearing = 1.4578, clearance = .0020"
#5 main journal = 1.4560, tq-ed blue bearing = 1.4579, clearance = .0019"
tried some blacks, they added about .0005" clearance
#1 main journal = 1.4557, tq-ed blue bearing = 1.4582, clearance = .0025"
#2 main journal = 1.4556, calc black bearing = 1.4583, clearance = .0027"
#3 main journal = 1.4555, calc black bearing = 1.4583, clearance = .0028"
#4 main journal = 1.4558, tq-ed black bearing = 1.4583, clearance = .0025"
#5 main journal = 1.4560, tq-ed black bearing = 1.4584, clearance = .0025"
Q: on a past post DM said he'd like to see "at least .0025" on mains"...
some other folks believe that tighter clearances on the mains may promote oiling to the rods...
any thoughts???
(getting this deep into it makes me think Professor Vincent Hill and I have common ancestry somewhere along the line )
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johnnycheese
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posted July 31, 2005 11:07 AM
Karl run the blues.
what are the rods?
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entropy
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posted July 31, 2005 03:30 PM
 Edited By: entropy on 31 Jul 2005 16:32
JC,
when I measured the rod bearing ID, I did 2 measurements, 1 parallel to the long axis of the rod, 1 perpendicular; it appears that the rods are oval. Since it seems to be systematic, I gues it is meant to be that way (hope so)
with all blues (OEM spec is .0019-.0033)
.......clearance
#1 .0022-.0030
#2 .0030-.0034 (i'm gonna re-re measure this one)
#3 .0025-.0030
#4 .0025-.0030
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johnnycheese
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posted July 31, 2005 06:02 PM
on new ones?
I see it on used ones and used bearings
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entropy
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posted July 31, 2005 10:48 PM
all new bearings, and #4 rod is new.
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zx12girl
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posted August 01, 2005 05:54 AM
Are those actual plasti-gage measurements or calculated? I see the "tq-ed" and "calc" listings. Is the "tq-ed" = actual and the "calc" = calculated?
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entropy
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posted August 01, 2005 08:24 AM
hahahahahahahaha, at least someone is reading the fine print!
these are all measured with bore gauge and micrometer, EXCEPT #2, #3 with the blacks.
Once i saw that changing a blue for a black added .0005" (on #5, #4), i "calc-ed" the clearance for #2, #3) by just adding .0005 to the blue readings.
BTW:
a lil web research (circletrack.com has a cool motor building section) told me to "always measure the bearing ID at 90 degrees away from the bearing split". Apparently that will be the min dimension, and that the bearing ID's are supposed? to get bigger on the horiz axis???
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MadMike
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posted August 01, 2005 10:39 AM
Very good info keep it coming!
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VincentHill
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posted August 01, 2005 11:06 AM
If I was shooting for .0025, then the only 2 mains I would use the Black ones on is #4 & #5. If #4 was .0019 and #5 was .22 I would use the Blue on #5 because the the Extra wear I think the Cam Chain puts on the crank. Taking your time and looking at all of these things is FUN to me!
My question is, Have you compared the Internal Mic to using an Internam Bore Telescoping gauge and Mic to se what the differences are? My other Question is, what is the Temp of the Case and Bearing you are doing this at? (If it is about 60 to 75 degrees, Fine. But if it is Hotter, "Like 90 Degrees" then remember the clearances will SHOW More but be less)
Yes I have a Thermometer
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entropy
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posted August 01, 2005 01:41 PM
Edited By: entropy on 1 Aug 2005 14:43
VH:
"...Bore Telescoping gauge and Mic..."
that's exactly how I am measuring the ID's of the bearings
Yes, ideed, it is fun!!! my "Senior Science Fair Project"
JC says all blues and with good support from others in the know. Some experts agree with Doug Meyer that .0025 is great for hp, but with a stroker, going less than .0025 is probably preferable.
temp of my "shop"???
a balmy 95degrees,
but consider what the motor operating temp is???!!!
(what's my point? goddamned if I know.. . )
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kzz1
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posted August 01, 2005 02:31 PM
A little measurement technical information -
You will have a measurement uncertainty of at least .0002 and I do not care if your gage was calibrated last week.
With that said, you are at a safe distance with the .0025 specification. With the measurement uncertainty, you will actually be .0024 - .0026.
Also, we used the bearing kit when we built the motor. I was able to find up to a .0002 difference between bearings of the same color. Make sure that you use actual plasti-gage measurements before you just torque it down and go.
As an FYI - you could have up to a .0004 difference between what "you think you have (calculated)" and "what you actually have".
ZX12Girl
(using Kzz1's computer)
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VincentHill
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posted August 01, 2005 05:03 PM
The reason I mentioned the Shop temp is I think the Measurements are usually given under room Temp which is between 65 & 75 degrees. If at 95 degrees you read .0019, then most likely the comparisson measurement would really be about .0017. SO if you see .0028, then that is closer to .0025 or .0026 so where you added the Black is most likely excellent measurements. One I get "Close" with the tools you are using, THEN I always use Plasti Gauge like ANgi Suggest for my Final Measurement.
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johnnycheese
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posted August 01, 2005 05:06 PM
Karl that is why I did most of them in the office A/C is my friend lately
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entropy
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posted August 02, 2005 01:52 AM
Edited By: entropy on 2 Aug 2005 02:54
quote:
Karl that is why I did most of them in the office A/C is my friend lately
Cool! 
I am not too worried about temp variability because my "office" is always about the same temp (90-ish) during early am when i'm working, and i measure the journal and the bearing back to back and take the diference.
Angi is correct-o, even with a digital which reads in graduations of .00001, the reproducibility of my readings from one day to the next is about .0001 - .00015 0r 2.
This is all really pretty academic but is kinda fun and helps me understand stuff
About using plasti-gauge: hmmmmm... I don't know that it would be more accurate than direct measurements???
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big al
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posted August 02, 2005 05:09 AM
What the temperature is while taking measurements is not as important as maintaining a constant temperature, as long as your gauges are calibrated at that temperature (most gauges are calibrated at 68 deg F). It takes a long time for the varying metals and instruments to stabilize 12hrs if not 24hrs is a good rule of thumb. The most common mistake is people bringing there mikes and instruments from a air conditioned office, house or hot car and trying to measure close tolerances in the shop or garage. Always keep your gages where your doing the measurements. And check calibration every day.
Using plasti-gauge is a good way to double check your mesurements is what I think Angi and Vince were getting at.
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VincentHill
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posted August 02, 2005 08:09 AM
AMEN Big AL!! I am also saying that if he want to have .0025, he better make it about .0027 or .0028 because the .0025 neasurement was made on an engine at about 70 degrees.
It is not the Range of measurements I am speaking about, but the Actual measurement he is trying to achieve.
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entropy
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posted August 02, 2005 08:39 AM
quote:
AMEN Big AL!! I am also saying that if he want to have .0025, he better make it about .0027 or .0028 because the .0025 neasurement was made on an engine at about 70 degrees. quote]
no-no-no-no..... no
The .0025 or whatever, is the difference between two measurements both taken under the same conditions
1. the journal OD,
2. the the bearing ID
At least that's how I see it.
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zx12girl
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posted August 02, 2005 09:01 AM
quote:
Using plasti-gauge is a good way to double check your measurements is what I think Angi and Vince were getting at.
Yeap! That is what I meant.
Plasti-gauge is not the most technical measurement but it is useful for a verification to your calculated measurements....
All I am trying to point out is that I would use caution when choosing the tighter specifications. If you get too close to the lower end of the spec. and have not calculated for a certain percentage of measurement error, you could be actually running too tight ...... and we all know what that means.
Oil starvation and here you go again, tearing the motor apart!!!
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VincentHill
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posted August 02, 2005 09:23 AM
We all Love you Karl and hope that you get over the VH Sickness soon ! What I am saying is I KNOW What you are measuring. Remember, the Steel grows very little with 20 to 25 degrees of heat, but "Aluminum"  Grows per degree Even if you Normalize the temps byt putting the two parts together and they are EXACTLY the same temp, the measurements will be different at 12 Midnight (Where I Hope it has cooled down to 65 to 70 degrees as opposed to 12 Noon where it is 95 degrees) That is all I am saying. I know that your measurements are correct within .0001 or .0002 of each other using your gauges but I am also saying that the Temp is also worth about .0002 to .0003 also. Plasti Gauge has been around for Many Many years. If anyone had any problems with it, we "ALL" would be stating them right here and right now.
The Truth be told, I bought 2 sets of Micrometers to check on each other  But the final decision is the little piece of Plastic and the Piece of paper to measure with a Magnifying Glass .
The truth be told, I personally think the 2nd set up with the Black and Blue is possibly perfect for the conditions and tools used.
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entropy
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posted August 02, 2005 12:11 PM
I'm not getting over the "VH sickness" anytime soon, but I am gonna neglect temp considerations
Think about this while you use plastiguage on the mains:
In order for the plastiguage to read consistently to say 2 tenths across all 5 mains, the crank and the line boring of the cases and the thickness of the shells will ALL have to be perfect, no run out whatsoever....
Then think of that motor at 200F with differential expansion (alum has approx 2X the coefficient of thermal expansion of steel 20 vs 10 x10-6 length/length).
I conclude that it is impossible for the motor to run under any circumstances!!!
Angi, inspite of all the above, I definitely plan to plastigauge and see how it correlates.
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VincentHill
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posted August 02, 2005 01:12 PM
I agree what what you plan to do and of course I feel sorry for you! I have been living with this condition for almost 62 years I think yours has only Manifested it self since you got the ZX12
I guess the Connecting Rods need Alignment Boring also to make the Plasti Gauge work there also (The Good news is, your argument would not work in a Car engine. "One Cap at a time" not to mention if the Block was steel!
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trenace
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posted August 02, 2005 01:15 PM
Edited By: trenace on 2 Aug 2005 14:16
BTW is there anyplace to send the crankcases to for align boring? I had been thinking about that.
(While lacking his expertise, I also suffer from VH sickness...)
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VincentHill
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posted August 02, 2005 01:41 PM
"0" Man it is an Epidemic
Misery does not want company. This is a life long illness and it is TERMINAL .
Of course the Cure is worse than the Illness (Buying a Hardley Ableson where the specs for truing a wheel is Plus or Minus 1/4 inch. I freind of mine decided to take all of the play out of a Sportster Transmission. When he was finished, he had sleeves of over 1.5 inches to hold the gears in place (Enough room for a 6th Gear an still some slopp). The bike shifted great but the owner did not like it and sold the bike!
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gunner
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posted August 02, 2005 05:36 PM
Vince I think I got it too. The VH Sickness that is.
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spencercyclecom
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posted August 02, 2005 07:40 PM
Edited By: spencercyclecom on 2 Aug 2005 20:53
JESUS CHRIST!!!!
you guys are unreal sometimes!!!!!!!!!!!
set the mains at 2 and the rods around 2.3-2.5 and put the damn engine together...you have carrillos....run 15-50 oil in it and the accumulator and you will be fine...you do have a moded oil pan...run 5.5 qts in it... without the accumulator or 5 in the pan and 1 in the accumulator...if you have it
this is some good info that would cost thousands elsewhere...but i am giving it to you for free.... the rest are money shots!
any other day or night i would just scan over this topic and keep going...but you guys are KILLING me with the measurements via temp...... you are reiventing the wheel....no need to...go with what works....and has worked for people like myself and Coby and Muzzys.
sorry for venting...but i cant take stuff like this for very long.... it eats away at me.....and you MUST be wondering WHY other Doug's dont reply???? MMMMMMMMM
Karl,
There is no reason you should be going through engines like this...
order you a new pump from kawaskai and install it as well..they are less than $100.00.....pack the oil pump with grease and put it in....then make suure the engine is primed with oil BEFORE you start it up.. CHECK your OIL PRESSURE during cranking and strat up and running.....
I am gone.....
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Doug Ray
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