chiapet12
Parking Attendant
Posts: 30
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posted September 26, 2003 08:26 PM
1st Post in 4 years since labusas
Hi All as you can tell im a big lurker. Ive been a member of labusas since it started and since the day bikeland started.Ive always read all your posts and always find great information (feel like i know you).Sorry but never have much to say again sorry.But ive been following this hans snorkle testing and would like to add input.
From all the tests ive seen the hans snorkle has made more power than the stock snorkle (but it has never been tested at road speed (the horsepower)yes sensor reading psi etc have but not horsepower heres the twist you have shown the hans snorkle to make less psi at highway speed (this is a fact) except your not testing the air box preasure if you look at the map sensor it goes to a port in the side of the throttle body (I am not an aero space engineer and dont claim to be) but because the port goes into the throttle body at a 90 degree angle from the air flowing through it, it cannot measure airbox preasure. But it can measure the velosity of air going through the throttle body
it does this by not measureing psi but vaccuum from the air going by the 90 degree port (hard to express in words but put a straw in a bottle of watter and blow by the top of the straw and it creates a vacuum water will come out the straw) so in my and only my conclussion is that the higher the velocity the more vaccuum it will create witch means that the higher voltages seen when driving at 160mph
from the hans snokle vs stock is indicating a higher velocity = more power
correct me if im wrong but (just my opinion could be wrong but maybe right
P.S sorry for such a long post but its been a long time
all and any feedback welcome
P.S.S let me know if you have seen me on my bike (green 2000 zx12 with licence plate ZX12R
  
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chiapet12
Parking Attendant
Posts: 30
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posted September 26, 2003 08:42 PM
Hi guys me again (just to clarify from previous post)
less psi = more velocity from where the map sensor meaures
the vaccuum from the throttle body.
by the way if it measured airbox preasure you would have huge vaccuum at idle in the air box dont beleive me then hook a vaccuum gauge to it youll see what i mean.
Then again i could be a crack head (lol)
p.s just to throw in a twist (probably wrong but maybe not)
Makes me go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
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deathpulse
Pro
Posts: 1688
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posted September 27, 2003 06:51 AM
This really IS the post that will never die!! I got it - I'm going to get ANOTHER 2000 zx-12, deck it out the same, CLONE myself then put the hans ram air onit. We can run em right up against each other THEN we will know!! yes.. yes... excellent (wringing hands ALA Mongomery Burns)
SMITHERS - PREPAIR THE LAB!!
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted September 27, 2003 07:19 AM
best I could do before getting the Hans snorkle was 9.63...
after the hans snorkle 9.13  ; a SOLID 1/2 sec improvement!!!
BUT some of that improvement COULD have been due to the new 6" arm and 1361... maybe...
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psycho1122
Pro
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posted September 27, 2003 10:23 AM
YEP!!
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted September 27, 2003 10:24 AM
YEP!!
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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swft
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
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posted September 27, 2003 06:38 PM
*laughs*
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted September 27, 2003 07:24 PM
Chiapet, actually the MAP sensor does measure just that... Manifold Absolute Pressure.
If the map sensor voltage shows higher pressure seen by the sensor then more air will enter the engine because the pressure behind the intake valves is equally higher.
What you are describing (the straw thing) is the venturi action of the booster on a carb. on a FI engine there is no need to generate a low pressure area in which to pull fuel up the tube and into the throttle body/intake port. This is why FI can use larger throttle bores to make more top end power and not loose driveability. $^mm carbs on a zx12r would run like crap at lower speeds.
As far as the 90 deg or purpendicular to the port thing.... The MAP sensor doesnt get its vacuum signal from the venturi area of the throttle bodys. It gets the signal well below the narrowest part of the throttle body.
It truely sees the intake manifold pressure "vacuum" and it gets its signal from all 4 throttle bodies, so it kinds takes an average. Sort of.
But you are correct that higher velocity thru a venturi will produce a lower measured pressure in the venturi. But the engine will only use x amount of air at a given engine speed. So if x is constant and the air box pressure is increased the air pressure seen by the MAP is also higher so the amount of air entering the engine is greater.
The 2000-2001 zx12r snorkel uses a different method to prroduce positive pressure than say... the RC-51. The zx12r takes a "slice" out of the air in undesturbed air. think of a soup can with both ends cut off and it traveling thru the air lenght wise. The air passes by on both sides of the wall of the can. The air on the inside of the tube enters the engine and the air on the outside go's by. Think of this as a prostock snorkel like Warren Johnson uses. The RC-51 uses the high pressure area in front of the wind screen generated because the air compresses in front of the bike untill it starts to move to the lower pressure areas on the outer portions of the wind screen.
This is like Bill "grumpy" Jenkins cowel induction setup in the 60's.
Two different ways of doing it.
But the Soup can way is tuneable by changing the cross sectional area to match the requirements of the engine to the target road speed.
I'm not exactly sure but I believe the zx12r style of inlet is better suited for top speed vs the rc-51 style that eventually would become less eficient.
I dont know.
The sport rider tests in 1999 showed the R6 and RC-51 ramair to build pressure sooner but it fell off faster at high speeds.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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chiapet12
Parking Attendant
Posts: 30
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posted September 28, 2003 10:28 PM
Thanks y2kzx12r
Thank you for clarifying I didnt realize the vaccuum port
was below the venturi area of the throttle body.
So my conclusion stands corrected.
thanks again y2kzx12r for the great input.
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Zx23rr
Expert Class
Mahogany Bomber Pilot
Posts: 242
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posted September 29, 2003 12:23 PM
Let me take a stab at this!!
First, the reason that the Hans works better on the dyno is that the opening is larger and therefore is less restrictive and allows air to reach the Throttle bodies without reducing the pressure as much - hence - higher dyno reading.
Dyno reading do not win the race on the back stre(eet)tch.
The reasons the stock system works is that the ~10 sq in of opening has the air entering the opening un-disturbed. Then the air starts to slow down because of a greater increase in area. IF you slow air down in a confined space its mean pressure increases - think of an airfoil - the air passing over the top of the wing is travelling faster that the air below the wing. The pressure difference is what "lifts" the plane off the ground. There is by-product - this is drag. There is lots of drag in a airbox, so if you wish to gain that last ounce of hp, smooth out the air snorkle, bumps and lumps and corners. Any trubulence will cause friction which in turn will create heat which inturn will reduce pressure do to heated air.
- This make sense?
Also, IMHO, lots of ram-air systems are not sealed. And I mean SEALED up tight. Once you have that there is no better production system available other that what is available on the 00-01 Zx-12r.
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psycho1122
Pro
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posted September 30, 2003 08:28 AM
YEP!!
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted September 07, 2004 03:50 AM
I'm reviving this GREAT thread, because now with the LM-1 data logger I have a way to truly test and record intake pressure on a pretty well tuned big block motor.
Setting up the monitoring and recording of the intake pressure sensor was the easy part (yesterday).
The PITA part is gonna be removing my Hans snorkle and mounting the stocker at the track. I wanna do a couple of passes with the Hans then a couple with the stocker, same day, same air.
psycho1122 did some EXCELLENT work 2.5 years ago!!!!
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EastBayDave
Needs a job
Posts: 2245
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posted September 07, 2004 04:32 AM
it's back from the dead! :P
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Enjoy the ride!
02' ZRX1200
00' ZX12R sold
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted September 08, 2004 06:06 AM
Thanks Doug and entropy for your support on this thread.
entropy; PLEASE let us know what your findings have shown!
Untill all of us 12 (and other Big K Ram Air equipt bikes) owners realize how effective the stock Ram system is (PROPERLY SEALED UP), the thread my never die!
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted September 08, 2004 08:06 AM
pycho1122,
More than 2 yrs ago you did the kind of analysis I am only just hitting the tip of today. The data logging and 1/4mi testing of the stock vs Hans Ram air configs may add to yr work; i hope so.
to be continued...
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Marcos Peguero
Zone Head
Posts: 568
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posted September 21, 2004 06:41 PM
How do you seal up the stock sistem.
Thanks
Ps. Sorry for the dealy, I was stuck in The easy coast for the huracaine Jenne.
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vozizm
Needs a job
Got Nothing Witty To Say
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posted September 22, 2004 02:13 PM
This thread is the coolest!!
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motorcycleboy
Expert Class
Posts: 102
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posted September 22, 2004 03:10 PM
Very interesting thread. Thanks. :-)
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted September 22, 2004 03:25 PM
To Seal up the Ram-Air;
Build a plug for your Snorkle and force compressed air into the system. Then listen and find all the leaks!
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted June 25, 2005 08:17 AM
Entropy??
Anything new??
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted June 25, 2005 08:24 AM
nope,
i am concentrating on my motor, but i am close, so close...
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted June 26, 2005 08:13 AM
NEWMAN!!!!!!
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted January 14, 2006 07:33 AM
Just bringing this thread into anther New Year..........
entropy???? How close are you now? 
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 14, 2006 08:15 AM
psycho,
I scrambled the trans in Oct, then started a mess of traveling which took just about all my time up until now.
Block is over the pistons and today i will measure quench & CR, then put 'er back together; should be running in a couple weeks
(IF, IF, i don't have to go to Singapore on 21st...)
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Phantom Menace
Expert Class
Posts: 169
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posted January 14, 2006 12:35 PM
quote:
Richard- I only capped off the "Removeable" tubes. I could not find anything good enough to "plug" the holes. DO NOT cut anything else on the system!!
Why not cut them all off?
If the resonator tubes are there simply to reduce sound emissions (and catch rain) at the cost of increased volume to fill..... why wouldn't it be better to remove them and seal up the holes?
You'd think that less volume to fill would equate to pressure building up sooner. You'd also think that a straight path to the airbox would be cleaner than having air going into the resonators and them dirtying the air as it is force back up into the main track of air through the ram air.
The 00-01 ram air systems use 4 resonator tubes were as the 02-up use only 2.
Has anyone tested the ram air with all the resonator tubes blocked/sealed off?
Doug?
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