Egg
Parking Attendant
Posts: 9
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posted April 19, 2002 04:11 AM
fk you really do like to leave out important info eh??..isnt the arm a 6" over??
Lorcan
50mph
Offline
Posts: 90
Re:12R RULES - ELVINGTON FLYER RESULTS!!!
« Reply #2 on: 22:26 Monday 15-04-2002 »
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Next time I'm going to put more than 12psi in the tyre. It was hitting 11,500 in top.
Mods are:
Akro
PC2 (not mapped - I just gave it 5% more up top)
Head flowed and skimmed
Ignition advanced 4 degrees
Muzzy clutch hub
JMC arm and Sticky Mickey
Straps up front.
I think that's it. Is it usual for the flyers to vary so much? Mine went 186.2, 193.8, 186.2. Seems like a lot of difference.
FearsomeKawasaki
199mph
50mph
Offline
Posts: 64
Re:12R RULES - ELVINGTON FLYER RESULTS!!!
« Reply #9 on: 11:33 Wednesday 17-04-2002 »
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At every meet, there seems to be someone left out or with an anomalous speed reading. You got 172 didn't you?
Lorcan, the runs later in the day were affected by the wind more. The wind was on/off all day. Presumably your first run was more of a path-finder (if i recall, weren't you not even sure of your gear position on that run)?
Looking at the other runners, speeds were all over the place due to the wind, including my own runs.
FK
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there is that much I cant be bothered to post it. totally different days. totally different setups on the bike. thre is NOWAY you can compare them
but then, you reckon oranges are apples eh??
   
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted April 19, 2002 07:40 AM
 Edited By: dougmeyer on 20 Apr 2002 21:19
Two years ago when we were running those three bikes at Maxton (remember, we rented the place, I was the only one riding, over exactly the same patch of ground repeatedly)
Every run was different, no matter how consistant I tried to be. My 20 some years at Bonneville taught me to expect this. Everything has to be perfect. I still don't think you guys appreciate how small the time/speed difference is between various speeds over a clocked section. 200 mph is 293.3 feet per second. Most clock sets are set 132 feet apart. At the drags they "split the finish line,66 feet on each side.
That means you cover the clocks in less than a half a second. Just a puff of wind, a movemment of your head, a little loose surface on the pavement and you could briefly slow by, let's say a 1/4 (.250) of a second (rough numbers here) during the time you are "in the clocks". Just like that, a 200 mph run turns into a 195mph run. That's right, if you could have gotten to the "finish line" 1/4 of a second sooner it would have been a 200 mph run instead of a 195 mph one.Now, throw in a bike that has EXCESS power and can spin the tire at speed (while fighting the aero drag) and you'll (I hope) start to see how hard and unpredictable this is.
Doug
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FearsomeK
Novice Class
Posts: 96
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posted April 19, 2002 03:56 PM
Doug
I grasp exactly what you are saying.
But, in my little world, that particular modification produced speeds previously unsurpassed by any bike, even it's own. It was duplicated again about a month later.
Until someone crushes that result, with the same or lesser set up, am not yet prepared to say the snorkel doesn't work.
Egg rants on endlessly cos he has had his ass handed to him on a plate by a financial adviser (he's a doctor of engineeering), just because i ride a 12R. It pisses him off cos he bought into the Busa thing yet in reality, it is a mere obstacle. A brief one albeit as you pass in third and never look back.
FK
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted April 19, 2002 05:32 PM
FK
I'm not trying to "rain on your parade" I point out the above to explain the difficulty is matching and backing up a given performance.
Doug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted November 26, 2002 08:43 AM
who brought this back up again???
Anyway, since I have a Hans snorkle on my bike, I still have interest. Now that there is no where higher to go on motor for my bike (1427) maybe I can leave it alone long enough to get consistent, THEN, put the stock snorkle back on and see what happens.
I am still interested in FK's results, AND I have a very hard time following Doug's line of reasoning on the clocks. My 1/4 mph doesn't change much at all except when the weather changes drastically. I would guess that body position might overwhelm any difference in Hans vs stock.
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zx12richard
Pro
The Green Monster..
Posts: 1133
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posted November 26, 2002 08:51 AM
I have one also..... Dammit.... I really would like to know...
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted November 26, 2002 08:53 AM
entropy,
I think you are referring to 1/4 mile ET clocks, no? I'm referring to the 132 foot top speed clocks (which would compare to the top speed clocks at the drags, of course). If you are looking at the ram air changes to effect ET you will see much less of an effect since the ram air is "working" over a very small percentage of time (time spent over say, 140 mph) while in the ET clock's "jurisdiction"). If you are basing conclusions on top speed only, you are looking in the right place but the ability to see changes is MUCH more difficult. Somebody needs to test this thing in back to back runs at Bonneville or Maxton.
Doug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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zx12richard
Pro
The Green Monster..
Posts: 1133
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posted November 26, 2002 09:38 AM
I am going to try and send mine to Bergie in the spring and see if he will do his own test on it....
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted November 26, 2002 12:23 PM
Yes I will test it. I have two uppers I can install yours on one and keep mine on the other for easy swapping at Maxton.
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vozizm
Needs a job
Got Nothing Witty To Say
Posts: 4417
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posted November 26, 2002 01:53 PM
I will be at maxton next year...will not run...but just wanna see how fast them boys are!!
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VOZ
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flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted November 26, 2002 10:31 PM
RAM AIR EFFECT
I've noticed that quite a few people are in the camp
that RAM AIR is about Rammin & Pressure.....
It is not....!!
nothing even close to the pressure effect of a positive displacement blower
on most of the RAM AIR on most of the Superbikes
& moto GP bikes the openings are not HUGE.....
those bikes in both classes make comparable HP...superbikes
& much more in Moto GP
speeds also equal to & greater
what is of more importance are the boxes themselves
most approaching 10 liter & more
air has a weight & a velocity
in addition as a result of the firing order Vortices or
whirlwinds take place inside the air boxes........
causing other problems with FLOW
even in any given cylinder equal amounts of intake
doesnt flow thru the twin runners even if you could account
for the cam lobes & lift being identical
most normally aspirated engines only flow approx 80%
of their displacement........wouldnt be necessary to have boxes
approaching 10Xdisplacement
with a proper design rammin or pressure are misnomers
look at the new KHI Moto GP bike.......
that Ram Air intake is not as large as the ZX12r
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted November 27, 2002 03:23 AM
Actually the zx12r reaches a peak volumetric efficiency approaching 121% at peak torque, 7500 rpm.
And at peak HP its still over 100%. Its common for modern well tuned naturally aspirated engines to fill the cylinders over 100%. A positive displacement air pump is only one way of compressing air. Using its own mass and kinetic energy is another. Its the principal behind a centrifugal style compressor like a turbo etc. But it also works in limited form at designated rpms on naturally aspirated engines as well.
The ram air on the zx12r is capable of making over 30 mb of positive pressure
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beansbaxter
Needs a life
Posts: 5911
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posted December 23, 2002 11:25 PM
Why is this the most popular thread?
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted December 24, 2002 08:34 AM
Good Info on a Subject that is hard to nail down, thankfully Big-K knows what they are doing!
If you read page 51 in Kevin Cameron's book "Sportbike Performance Handbook", you will see clearly why the Hans does not give "FREE BOOST" at high speeds, it will acctualy LOOSE pressure. It is it design that causes the loss! I witnessed this myself during my testing as I watched the Voltage DROP off at High Speed.
All Hail the X-Factor!!
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted December 24, 2002 08:50 AM
Here is something to think about. Could it be that the smaller opening creating higher air velocities helps the air punch through the air filters better?
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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deathpulse
Pro
Posts: 1688
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posted December 24, 2002 10:32 AM
uh... so, for the non-mechanical engineers among us - is the HANS ram air better or not?
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted December 24, 2002 02:28 PM
Ted,
No.
deathpulse,
No.
Doug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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deathpulse
Pro
Posts: 1688
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posted December 25, 2002 07:27 PM
Thanks Doug! Thats like three favors I owe ya at this point. BTW - the map you e-mailed over is UNBELIEVABLE. Got me nice HP at the last Marcus Dairy run this year - most of the day I believe - AND on 50 weight oil (didn't go there expecting to dyno my baby  ).
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beansbaxter
Needs a life
Posts: 5911
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posted December 29, 2002 03:32 AM
Will Hans's test ever work?
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beansbaxter
Needs a life
Posts: 5911
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posted December 29, 2002 03:23 PM
What if it did work...then what?
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swft
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
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posted December 29, 2002 07:15 PM
Maybe you'd learn how to stop post whoring!
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted September 25, 2003 06:21 AM
So! What ever happened to the testing that was to be done with the Hans at Maxton this year?
If TedG, beanbaxter and others would read Kevin Cameron's book(pg.51),they would easily see how the Hans CAN"T WORK!
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swft
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
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posted September 25, 2003 07:25 AM
I tend to agree with Psycho. The larger opening puts the kabosh on air velocity. That's like when a guy hogs out the ports on his head, and sees a horsepower drop. Hmm...Having a weird vision, wherein you have both fuel, and air injectors into the motor. Precise stoch ratio, no more atmospheric corrections (cuz it's always perfect inside the motor). Don't even know if it would be considered a four stroke or not, considering there would only be exhaust valves.
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted September 26, 2003 05:58 AM
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted September 26, 2003 11:04 AM
*******************HOLY SCHITTTTTTTT*********************
Its back!!!!
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