your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
Posts: 4089
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posted April 01, 2002 12:23 PM
quote:
IT RAINED HARD at the track.
Thats the fucking understatement of the year 
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Do not taunt happy fun ball!
   
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zxguy
Parking Attendant
Posts: 17
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posted April 07, 2002 09:45 PM
humm... I have yet to install the snorkle I bought off ya...
But, I plan on doing some testing as well...
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted April 08, 2002 10:33 AM
 Edited By: psycho1122 on 10 Apr 2002 07:52
The first thing you will notice is that even if you attempt to map for it on a dyno, is that the bike will run "lean" at high rpn's/speeds due to the FACT that the pressure will drop and the ECU will see this and lean you out!
Bummer..........!!
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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zx12richard
Pro
The Green Monster..
Posts: 1133
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posted April 10, 2002 07:05 AM
I got my stocker back on..... Sealed totally... I'm going to hang the Hans on the wall and put flowers in both little sides of it..... Make a flower arrangement with it..... Until someone finds a good practical use for it......
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted April 10, 2002 07:14 AM
I almost did the same thing Richard, but I just could not stand the $485.00 loss on a useless item!!
So I SOLD it Thankfully!! 
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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zx12richard
Pro
The Green Monster..
Posts: 1133
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posted April 10, 2002 07:24 AM
I ran across a deal Got The Monster snorkle, the ram air covers, the tank insert, and the chain guard for 400 bucks..... I didn't pay alot of attention when I originally installed it but The runners are alot wider thats probably part of why it holds lower pressure..... Its actually alot wider when I was comparing them before the reinstall of the original.... When I first got it I was so gunho to do it that never compared the two..... Flower holder it is Unless get the chance to trade for a green hugger....
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INTRA
Expert Class
Posts: 307
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posted April 10, 2002 08:14 PM
I actually saw a dyno graph of a before/after same day dyno run of the han's snorkle,it made big hp when they installed it,I laughed my ass off and so did the guy at the dyno shop(Sabin Performance),he-and I believe it's gaining more from the absence of the so-called"resonators"then from the big scoop(considering there was no ram air effect sitting in one spot on the dyno)however,the motor still has to pull air in through the intake ducts,I removed my resonators last year and felt a harder "hit"from a roll-on,the hans kit(intake runners) is even smoother,therefore I would think it breath's better,think of those tubes hanging off the bottom of the intake runners,it's got to be doing some harm,also,my motor sounded meaner(which put a smile on my face)just cut the tubes off,hey,I'm not an expert in ram-air 101,and I'm not jumping on the cliff Randle "band wagon",but that's my 2 cents on the subject.
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21893
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posted April 10, 2002 10:51 PM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 10 Apr 2002 23:53
Since I have zero technical knowledge on this subject... I would like to ad a comment.... it is the same comment I added months and months ago when people first began promoting the snorkel... it is a similar comment I made regarding the fitch fuel catalyst...
If Kawasaki spent thousands of hours of r&d designing the 12 and it's ram air system, dont you think that the snorkel would have been perfected already? This whole thread solidifies my belief that infact the manufacturers DO know what they are doing, and infact the AFTERmarket simply provides (on the whole) trinkety little gadgets fer us to spend our time and money on...
I believe I also asked if that snorkel came with a CF ashtray and a CF decal for the triple clamp as well... ...
What did you guys really expect?
But let me ask you this....
How many of you who bought the carbon snorkel actually bought it for a performance gain? I mean really? IMHO people who spend dough on CF are behind the times and do so for a (allbeit dated) cosmetic effect... not much more...
Face it.. everyone knows they'd be better served by getting a Ti exhaust instead of a CF one, and CF or Kevlar bodywerk mostly for it's protective properties... and if they were REALLY serious they'd get the CF painted and you'd never be able to tell it was CF anyways..
Hey.... just drop one of them there fitch pills in yer tank... I'm sure that it will react postively with the snorkel to produce a delightful result...
Money is pretty when you are lighting it on fire...
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zx12richard
Pro
The Green Monster..
Posts: 1133
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posted April 11, 2002 05:16 AM
I agree with Fish mostly but as when know everything can be made faster and improved..... They spent thousands of hours on the bike but yet we all continue to make them faster.... I think we are looking for the improvement here too... But maybe this is one part the factory made perfect..... Just my $.02 worth....
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blkrnbw
Novice Class
Posts: 61
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posted April 11, 2002 07:18 AM
hrm
I have to say that I for one would not be served anywhere near my carbon can vs a ti one. With the daughter on bike the Ti can get nasty, the carbon warms up but will not cook ya like the Ti will. That was my buying thought.
Brian.
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted April 11, 2002 07:58 AM
Fish, I agree that they spent alot of time on R&D and designed the ramair sysytem to produce excellent results.
However, they have some compromises thay have to make with design due to manufacturing and tooling cost. Everything is a balancing act between the styling dept, the design guys, the engineers, the production people... you get the idea.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted April 11, 2002 08:25 AM
A lot of good stuff here. It's kind of like court though, each of you wants only to believe YOUR version of the truth.
Valid testing is the only true fact, all the rest is opinion.
I take exception with one comment that is presented as fact though,
Y2, no design of inlet can increase (or provide) greater ram pressure at the inlet. Ram pressure is variable ONLY by density and speed. Shape and size of the inlet is irrelevant. It is a predictable number at any velocity correctable for density.
This is why the term "ram recovery" exists. You can only loose pressure after the inlet You can vary the AVAILABLE pressure through velocity changes and each time you change the pressure you loose some (heat energy, I suppose). But the energy you've got at the inlet is what you've got period.
Figure out how to make more and we'll be rich!
DOug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21893
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posted April 11, 2002 09:42 AM
now WHY would you need to take yer daughter on the back of a 185hp machine? Hardly an arguement fer CF .. :lol ...
Now back to the snorkel... by all accounts it appears to be a werk of art... so what's the big deal guys? Why not just buy the thing if you're into that stuff?
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted April 11, 2002 10:09 AM
Exactly Doug. Thats why I've always questioned the size and shape changes od the first several inches of the inlet that were made by Hans.
The way my buddy explained it to me was that ideally you want no turbulance and no cross sectional area change to retain as much kennetic energy as possable. We all know that the ramair tubes on the zx12r are far from having no turbulance and the cross sectional area does change.
Why did Kawi make it this way if they knew it wasnt optimal? Because they had other design issues they needed to incorporate. Things like mounting the unit, mounting the covers, clearing the forks, mating connections, extraction from moulds, assembly at the factory, etc.
These ramair tubes look like a blow moulded item to me made from a sheet of ABS or somthing. They could have "saved" some kennetic energy with a different design(shape), thats a fact that my buddy has convinced me of. But it may not have met all the objective that they had for the ramair tubes.
Everything is a compromise.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted April 11, 2002 10:24 AM
Doug, from what I've been told, you can loose pressure in the ramair duct if the inlet is sized too large. The air will "dam up" and not enter the duct. It weas told to me this is why jet fighters need to reduce the size of the inlet area as speed increases. If the engine isnt using the volume of air directly if front of the inlet "cylinder" at a given speed then the extra air simply goes around the inlet. So by decreasing the cross sectional area of the inlet at speed the velocity is maintained and the system continues to provide ram effect.
Maybe I just cant explain it the way Bill does. I've asked him alot of "what if's" about this topic and it usually boils down to a "no" answer. Seems I cant come up with anything that someone else hasnt allready figured out.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted April 13, 2002 09:04 AM
Y2,
True the "other" design considerations certainly effect the performance of the inlet. But, I'm of the opinion that the protruding shape of the stock inlet was selected for no other reason than max ram.
Regarding the jet inlet issue. That is true BUT, we're largely talking about supersonic airflow there. Look at the inlet on a subsonic jet. Whether straight turbojet or high bypass fan, it's just a large flat face with nicely rounded edges, facing the airstream (think big Boeing). The inlet matches the engine's air requirement. I think the inlet of the ZX-12 matches the air requirement of the bike at speed.
In a supersonic application, a major consideration is shock wave placement. Shock waves form at the leading edge surfaces and if these shock waves move into the engine inlet, bad things happen to the engine's "control" of the air (This is why the SR-71 had the moveable "spikes" in the J-58 inlets, to control the shock wave) Also, you are correct regarding the drag of the airflow into the engine. The engine can only "process" so much air and speeds are reached where there is "spillover". This absolutely creates induced drag (as opposed to "form drag") and turbulent flow around the airframe (examples of this is the F-4 which had BIG moveable doors at the inlet, F-15's which have "drooping" inlets and F-14's which has moveable ramps and vents controlling the air before it reaches the engines).
More pertinent to the ZX-12 is the radiator nacelle on a P-51 (a 350 mph airplane). That single aspect of the airplane is an incredible piece of work and is the result of extensive NACA research in the 1930's. Take a good look at one and notice the top edge and how it is a few inches away from the fuselage bottom surface. It cleanly acccepts the moving air and ignores the stagnant boundry layer, of which the thickness varies with the speed (interestingly the air inlet on the bottom of an F-16 looks just like this). This actually added frontal area but other drag considerations out weighed this increase. The radiator "box" has a moveable door at the rear which controls the size of the EXIT rather than the inlet, which is fixed. On the ground, and for take off and climb the door hangs open and low permitting maximum flow through at low speeds. At high speed the doors raises creating a nicer flow off the rear of the "box", increasing the velocity of the air through the radiator, matching the air "out" to the air "in" and to the cooling requirements of the engine. This actually adds a small amount of thrust as the high velocity, hot air exits the radiator and expands into the air stream, like a little jet.
There is nothing new, just manipulations of what we already know.
Don't you just love this shit? I need more coffee.
Doug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted April 13, 2002 09:50 AM
Love It!!
Yes Doug, I absolutely LOVE this shit!!
Thanks for your input on this topic.
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted April 15, 2002 07:36 AM
I'd imagine, its much the same as the radial cooling flaps on the Grummen Cats with the big radials.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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FearsomeK
Novice Class
Posts: 96
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posted April 15, 2002 12:48 PM
Monster
Well guys, it seems I am one of the die-hards on this. I understand and accept what has been said here but real world performance for me tells me that for some reason my bike was finding more power than it should, based on performance relative to other more powerful bikes.
I have been waiting to see how a 12R over here that posted 9 more hp on the dyno than my bike (headwork)would compare on top end performance. Well, he ran on Sunday at Elvington (at which he was best qualifier in the 9.5 class).
His bike: Akro full system, flowed head, STOCK snorkel, no mirrors, lowered front and back, race tyre - 180rwhp.
---Best speed achieved 193.6 in still conditions at about 60 degrees. He ran through the 1/4 traps at 148mph on that run..
My bike in October: Yosh full system, stock engine, MONSTER snorkel, no mirrors, lowered front and back, stock tyre - 171rwhp.
---Best speed achieved 196mph in still conditions at about 60 degrees. My bike ran through the 1/4 traps at 148mph on that run.
The bike that ran on Sunday was best qualifier in the 9.5 class and utterly destroyed all but the turbos like mine did. He was no smuch.
So he had more hp, race tyre, yet slower at the top?
If my bike is being hurt by the Monster, creating an even bigger horsepower deficit with him having the stock snorkel, where in hell is the power coming from???
The best testing area is the track and it is telling me loud and clear...stick with it!
FK
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted April 15, 2002 02:44 PM
Well, Three miles per hour can vary just from conditions, right?
If you both ran the same day nearly the same time we could speculate alot more about the power issue.
And if we really wanted to get nuts we could even speculate on the assumptions.
 just kidding
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TeamSpeed
Expert Class
Posts: 449
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posted April 15, 2002 06:33 PM
Same gearing between his and yours? I assume so, since it was not brought up. I do not know what top speed would be with a 17/48 combo, but though I would ask.
And ambient weather conditions would make a HUGE difference. I would run my Z28 one day and get no better than 13.10s, then run it on a dry cold day and get 12.90s (2/10s just in the quarter mile alone due to conditions). It would figure that top end would be similiarly affected.
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted April 15, 2002 07:10 PM
Wheel Spin!!
I'm willing to bet that the more powerful bike has a higher % of WHEELSPIN.
Also, rider input at those speeds is very critical!! Even the slightest amout of extera DRAG will slow you down alot!!
If one guy has as little as an elbow or shoulder sticking out in the wind, you can loose M.P.H.!!
I went 195.8 M.P.H. out here last May w/ "only" @168 h.p. in 2,200 ft. air quality, stock gearng and I am 6'1" and weigh 220 w/ all my gear. The bike had stock gearing w/ Muzzy pipe, map & advancer.
Speed was measured by Radar Gun (Cycle World's) and verified w/ a G.P.S. unit.
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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Rocket J
Zone Head
Goes to water over a dummy!!!
Posts: 602
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posted April 15, 2002 09:54 PM
350 mph?
Kind of a sick Mustang isn't it Doug?
There is only one reason that the P-51 was so remarkable. It is the greatest looking airplane (D+ models) in the history of time.
North American rules! P-51, XB-70, and the fastest aircraft of them all, the X-15 (not that sluggish SR-71 thing).
Rocket
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If I get any smarter, my head will explode!
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FearsomeK
Novice Class
Posts: 96
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posted April 16, 2002 02:20 AM
Edited By: FearsomeK on 16 Apr 2002 03:36
Comparative Runs
Yep, gearing was the same, as were the conditions (60 degrees, still air)on the same track.
The top turbo ran precisely the same as in October at 216mph. So conditions couldn't have varied that much.
Note, Elvington is not long enough for true top speed. It's a standing mile, and the bike is still accelerating at the lights.
I know it's not exactly scientific but my point is, there is NO evidence to say my bike was being hurt in hp terms by the use of the Monster snorkel.
If the test data above is correct, then:
1) I had an hp deficit with ram air of about 13/14hp to his bike by using the monster (9hp on dyno plus c.5hp with poorer pressurisation).
2) I was on a worn stock tyre. He was using a race tyre.
3) The other bikes posted the same top end in each day, so conditions were as near as damn it identical.
My 12 should not be able to live with this bike if you accept the test data. But it didn't only live with it, it bettered it by 3mph????
Doesn't compute. We are missing something and the Monster stays until any other 12 in the country can even come close to matching those speeds at Elvington.
FK
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted April 16, 2002 07:36 AM
Edited By: psycho1122 on 19 Sep 2002 08:19
Fearsome, You have not taken my points seriously enough, they are very valid and probable points. One common denominator is tire contact patch. All thes bikes are running 200 series tires!?. The tire WILL grow at high speed(just like a Dragster), reducing contact patch, race compound or not-new tire or not......Reduced contact patch + high H.P. = more wheel spin!!!
Also find out what R.P.M's the other riders are noticeing at these speeds, if they are indicating HIGHER r.p.m.'s and posting lower speeds, that would confirm the presence of wheelspin.
Why don't you try putting your stock snorkel back on for your next run and make shure it is TOTALY sealed. See what happens!
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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