Y2KZX12R
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posted February 28, 2002 07:23 PM
FK, no I wouldnt say its flawed at all. Its just different numbers from a different place on the bike. If you put 10 sensors in 10 places they wouldnt all be the same.
There are some things that can be concluded. But actual airbox pressure can not be. Not from the data I saw. But increased pressure is increased pressure and if the back of the intake valve sees it then it makes power.
Kcadby is doing or is going to be doing some testing on this very issue in the near future. But this will be actual frame pressure. Gee did I say that? Frame pressure!
Hey man whats your frame pressure at? 
Anyway, stay tuned.
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Y2KZX12R
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Y2KZX12R
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posted February 28, 2002 07:24 PM
FK, no I wouldnt say its flawed at all. Its just different numbers from a different place on the bike. If you put 10 sensors in 10 places they wouldnt all be the same.
There are some things that can be concluded. But actual airbox pressure can not be. Not from the data I saw. But increased pressure is increased pressure and if the back of the intake valve sees it then it makes power.
Kcadby is doing or is going to be doing some testing on this very issue in the near future. But this will be actual frame pressure. Gee did I say that? Frame pressure!
Hey man whats your frame pressure at?
Anyway, stay tuned.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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FearsomeKawasaki
Novice Class
Posts: 61
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posted March 01, 2002 12:46 AM
""Frame Pressure!!!"
Jeez, my head is buzzing with this.
Psycho, the 100% map in the higher gears had extra fuel mapped in to allow for ram air effect, although as we do not know precisely what the effect is, it's a bit of a shot in the dark. It seemed to work though!!!
Y2K, two things:
Are you saying that pressure is lost after it enters the bodies before combustion as this data "seems" to suggest? If so, could the lesser readings for pressure for the Hans be because of a bigger burn (unlikely i know)?
And, ...the Sportsrider test compared ambient pressure from a sensor on the back of the bike relative to the an airbox located sensor (like the bikes have themselves). Yes? If so, how did they compensate for the loss in air pressure that occurs behind the fairing which is the cause of aerodynamic drag (the hole)? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that sensor would have been located in an area of artificially low pressure and if they deemed this artificial figure as "ambient", then yes, the front sensor would show pressurisation relative to this lower ambient figure.
FK
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Y2KZX12R
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posted March 01, 2002 03:07 AM
FK, they used a data logger with two sensors for all the bikes tested. Not all the bikes had EFI.
Moving air has less presure than still air. As air accelerates it gives up static pressure. So the air in the throttle bodies has a greater velocity than the airbox air.
In a standard carb this faster moving air has a lower presure so the atmospheric air pressure enters the float bowl and pushes on the top of the fuel to force it into the booster venturi. Also the air is forced to emulsify(sp?) the fuel in the emulsion tubes. With fuel injection the pressure drop is alot less because you dont need the differential pressure to draw fuel and air. But there is still a velocity bump and that still creates a pressure drop.
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Y2KZX12R
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted March 01, 2002 05:55 AM
I would like to add that the 12R has a ATMOSPHERIC pressure sensor in the tail section. I was talking w/ a friend re; this and we thought that the ECU might take this information into account (pressure difference between the two sensors) when determining A/F Ratio at high speeds.
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FearsomeK
Novice Class
Posts: 96
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posted March 01, 2002 06:32 AM
Jeeez
Y2K?
Just for clarity, do you believe a sensor placed behind the fairing at the back of the bike will read true ambient, or low due to the aerodynamic hole formed?
This question is vital for the Sportsrider results to have any meaning with regard to ACTUAL pressure in the box. They may just have shown the net movement in pressure when compared from their "deemed" ambient.
""the stock snorkel on the road at any speed above 40 mph at W.O.T. voltage always comes within .01 vdc of ambient but never above(at any speed). This indicates a "BOOST" of .824 p.s.i. over static (dyno readings).""
Based on what you state about this test, that it shows the true variance of pressure at different speeds and revs, but from a different standpoint (lower pressure environment caused by the velocity jump), are you saying the data above is correct and that THE 12 MAKES MAXIMUM BOOST at just 40mph all the way to 210mph?
That cannot be correct, yet according to this data, the 12 GAINED .824psi+/- in its airbox from just 40mph upwards.
Either the 12s design is truly a remarkable feat of engineering or something is not right.
FK
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FearsomeK
Novice Class
Posts: 96
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posted March 01, 2002 06:40 AM
Jeez
Another thing this data points to.
If the 12 makes such a level of boost from such low speeds, then keeping the snorkel out in front of the bow wave makes a huge difference.
FK
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted March 01, 2002 06:47 AM
I'm shure there is a piece of info that we don't have that would finish this puzzle!
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FearsomeK
Novice Class
Posts: 96
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posted March 01, 2002 08:35 AM
New Snorkel
Just sat on the new 12 today for the first time (Black/Gold). Beautiful bike and, in my opinion, its better looking than the original.
But. i had a good look at the intake and i am sorry guys, but its just a polished Monster intake. Its huge. plus, the ducts leading in are larger and more direct than before! ???
Why would Kawi take such a step back and go down the bigger volume is better route if it costs hp?
Hmmmmm.
FK
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted March 01, 2002 08:51 AM
Part II
After Re-reading the Sport Rider Ram-Air tests, I will start a phase II of my testing to determine acctual AIRBOX pressure w/ an additional sensor that I will mount on the other airbox cover plate and monitor the voltage readings from BOTH snorkels (on road).
Hopefully I will come up w/ some good info and be able to compare it w/ kcadby's.
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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Y2KZX12R
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posted March 01, 2002 08:51 AM
FK, I dont know what the pressures would be at speed in different places around the bike. Like behind the wind screen or in the tail section where the barometric sensor is. Thats a good question.
I believe sport rider would have taken a baro reading just prior to each run. I dont have the article right now in front of me.
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Y2KZX12R
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Blocktrader
Parking Attendant
Posts: 1
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posted March 04, 2002 11:04 AM
Unless I am mistaken, the data psycho1122 has supplied is coming from after the filters. There would be a large disparity between the pressure before the filters and after the filters. It seems to me that the airbox pressure would be irrelevant if the benefit is not being seen after the filters. If you used stock filters could ou possibly test with some sort of filter mod to see if that is the limiting factor? Also, is there a way to determine that the velocity of the air did not increase (or perhaps even decreased) with the new snorkle?
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted March 04, 2002 02:36 PM
 Edited By: kcadby on 4 Mar 2002 14:40
Quote from ra12...
"But this is also why "we" could not get the information about the benefits. This to me has also established the credibility of several board members"
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FIRST...let me (KEVIN CADBY) say this...
I lost sleep over this carbon testing deal...I mean a LOT a sleep...trying to get the bike "ready" for testing AND the actuall testing...
THEN when the Ninja-MOUTH dude started "selling the snorkel (buy it or be left behind)" I lost even more...biting my tongue...
It bothered the HELL out of me when HE did that shit but...I stayed out of it...REMEMBER???
THE TRUTH WAS/IS...John paid to have a NEW map (FULL RANGE MAP) done THE SAME DAY I drove to MOUTHS house (300+ miles round trip) to pick up the "prototype" snorkel...
Well...the dyno we went to for THAT map was NOT Jeff at HPC because Jeff didn't have a load control dyno and I wanted "the BEST/FULL map possible" for these tests...
The "operator" (as it turned out) of THIS BRAND NEW dyno was "as new to mapping as the dyno itself"...
We (John AND I) found out the hard way...It cost John TWO tires, a burned up MUZZY titanium can (STILL on the bike), AND the dyno time (which was "discounted" for burning up tires and can)...
LONG story short...when we took the bike to the TRACK for testing...I could FEEL that the bike wasn't "right" (with STOCK snorkel)...it was "lacking power from 8,500 all the way to shift point"...
I made the "STOCK-ram basen line runs" then...when we were swapping to the CARBON-ram...IT RAINED HARD at the track.
By the time the track was dry (90-minutes) the air was VERY diff., which made THAT test session "useless" (I posted this THAT night)...
When the bike went to JEFF'S dyno for the Ram-air testing/mapping...We found out that...the "other dyno operator" had the bike almost DANGEROUSLY lean in the rpm range listed above...
Jeff didn't want to spend a lot of time "fine tuning" so he "threw in" one of John's older maps just so that the motor would be SAFE rather than D-lean for the STOCK ram testing...THEN I swapped to the CARBON-ram and Jeff MAPPED for IT...The result was +6HP...
I TOLD NINJA-MOUTH about this and he said..."well, we don't have to tell everyone that" 
I told him...I TOTALY DISSAGREE WITH THAT!!!
THAT was when I 1st started to "dislike" HIM and the dislike only grew MUCH more when he started posting his SHIT TALK on LaBUSAS...
It bothered the HELL out of me seeing him posting that SHIT but I didn't know what to do since we (JOHN) didn't have the CARBON-ram that was promised to us for testing in our hands yet.
JOHN PAID HUNDREDS of dollars for tires, dyno time, lost work time...to get his "free" CARBON-ram...
FUCK ME!!! I was only trying to get MY BEST FRIEND IN THE WORLD something GOOD for all the seat-time and FUN he let me have on HIS bike  (even though ALL the work I did/have-done on HIS bike was/is for FREE) AND help out EVERYONE on LaBUSAS make THEY'RE BIKES BETTER...
EVERYTHING I POSTED ABOUT MY TRACK TESTING WAS THE TRUTH!!!
I am GUILTY of THIS...
NOT telling NINJA-MOUTH to "shut the fuck up AND tell the board members that the bike did not have a fine-tuned map in it for the initial STOCK-ram dyno runs"...
Bottom line...the A/F ratio was close enough for Jeff to not want to alter the map before I swapped rams... the A/F ratio was THE SAME when I did swap it so...no difference there...
Because he didn't "fine tune" the map first...we will never know EXACTELY how much difference the ram made THAT DAY but...it would have been somewhere between 4-6 HP IMO...
I told EVERYONE I have seen in person from these boards (at LEAST 5 people) this...
To this day...I'm sure HANS is PISSED OFF at me because I never sent him the actual dyno-graphs from the "test session"...SORRY HANS...
As posted MONTHS ago...the 9.20s I ran at 4"-over wheelbase were WITHOUT the CARBON-ram but...ALL the numbers posted since (MANY 9.20s, ALL 9.1s) and the 9.0s were ALL WITH THE HANS CARBON RAM-AIR
The Carbon has NEVER been off the bike since...
IF the bike was MINE I would have done MORE testing with/without but...I DID get VERY burned out on "this deal" AND John (unlike me) doesn't care "that much" about donating HIS bike AND doing so much work (even though it's ME doing the work) for "people he doesn't know"...
Y2K...and everyone else...
I'm sorry I didn't do the "REAL WORLD tests YET" but as stated above (different words now) John gave me a FUNNY LOOK when I told him I wanted to do these new tests...
And since he is racing the bike himself now every week (Prostar being "a big one")...I haven't pushed for it but...I KNOW he will let me do it when I'm ready and want to...
I'm also in DEEP SHIT money wise (BEHIND on bills) so it hasn't "been a priority" with me right now...
The bike is geared to rev limit at about 174mph so I can't just "throw the sensor on and GO" 185+ for GOOD testing either...
I had also planned to use the pressure sensor at the throttle bodies but Y2K sent me a sensor to use IN THE AIR BOX...
I WILL DO IT when I can but WON'T PROMISE when I can/will do it...
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Y2KZX12R
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posted March 04, 2002 07:24 PM
Kevin, No need to apologize. I am guilty of taking on too much (to many) projects at once also. I have no less than 5 projects going on with the zx12r right now. As well as 3 major home improvement projects and a full time job.
I need a 36 hour day for a year and I might get caught up.
If you get to testing the carbon unit great if you dont then dont worry about it. Its not the end of the world.
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ZXtra
Expert Class
Posts: 490
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posted March 05, 2002 02:09 AM
Kcadby...Don't beat yourself up over what you think might be some shortcomings on your part.
You have helped alot of people on this and other boards with a variety of problems. I remember the excellent clutch posts you put up with labelled pictures and detailed instructions. I still have those. I also remember the race reports you posted weekly. I found them very entertaining and I looked forward to them every week.
There's no need for you to apologize to us. I for one appreciate everything you've done for us and I hope you are able to continue doing just that. I'm waiting to hear about that first eight second run on a stock motored ZX12.
Best of luck to ya, buddy! -ZXtra
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The sixth sick sheik's sixth sheep's sick!
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted March 05, 2002 07:14 AM
Re; Part II of test.........
I will continue to test this Question of pressure and the two snorkels.
I did get a response from Kevin Cameron of Cycle World and at this time he basically refered to his book "Sportbike Performace Handbook" (Chapter 6, pg's 50 & 51). This is EXCELLENT info and if you have ever read this book you WILL agree!!
As soon as I obtain an additional sensor, I will mount it on the airbox/frame cover that is not in use (after the filters) and take readings from it to determine what if any pressure is building. Also, what snorkel delivers MORE pressure. I think I already know the answer, it's just a question of How Much ?!?
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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Carbonman
Parking Attendant
Posts: 6
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posted March 05, 2002 07:56 AM
Hey Guys seems everybody is very busy. I never new the monster snorkle would raise such interests. It is nice to see the enthusiasm of everyone. For the record we hope that all the results show a great improvement to the old intake. It seems only logical that a smoother much better flowing intake will only help. I am not hear to dispute anything. I recieved the imformation on the testing and passed it along. I am only here to help you guys. I have said it before maybe the monster is not for everybody. All I know is everybody was interested in us doing it and we did. I also remember their was another snorkle made and is was $1000 dollars I know how much carbon costs and what it takes to built shit with it. Let me say nobody is getting rich off of my intake. I have yet to recover all the costs involved in makeing the damn plugs, molds modifications retool etc. etc. etc.
It was intended to support you guys with your requests for the best carbon fiber work available anywhere and we have proven that. I am always interested in building new products for you but it seems you guys dont appreciate anything it is always so negative. Life is too short lets all try and have some fun. I do appreciate all the guys that have sent thanks and called back to tell us how thankful they are to recieve a product that is exactly what they had hoped for. We will continue to support the zx12 owners trying to get our hands on a new one to offer parts to the 2002 models. Oh and Kevin I am not mad at you. You have done nothing but help. I hope there one day exsists some good hard numbers that everybody feels comfortable with and we can move on and see that the carbon intake is a great piece (which it is) saves weight looks great flows better air and in return produces all the Hp you guys are looking for. And for a very fair price of $399.00 on sale now.
I wish there was 36 hrs in a day as somebody said above. But we would all just find more shit to fill the time. Hope everybody is doing great stay safe, ride safe and if I can lend any assistance please feel free to ask.
Sincerely,
Hans
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Zx23rr
Expert Class
Mahogany Bomber Pilot
Posts: 242
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posted March 05, 2002 08:17 AM
Best..........
ram-air design is that of the 00-01 ZX-12r. The location is paramount in its effectiveness. Why the stock is able to keep up with the Hans snorkle is that the stock opening is designed for the box. Time limited I quickly sacnned through all the replies and I think it wasn't mentioned. As the air goes though the opening and turns on its marry way towards the airbox, the air passage starts to open up and by the time it gets to the airbox itself, the air slows right down. It is a law of physics that as air slows- buernollis(sic)thoery - think carburator - the pressure increases. In this case, greater than one might think. Even more so if all the "factory leaks" have been sealed.
Later......................................../
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted March 05, 2002 08:42 AM
EXACTLY Zx23rr !!!!!!!
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted March 31, 2002 08:22 AM
HANS DOES NOT WORK!!
This information is why I sold the Hans Snorkel.......
This basic rule of a pressurised airbox's "intake pipes" as stated in Kevin Cameron's "Sportbike Performance Handbook",pg 51-line c. states.............................
"The intake pipes MUST enlarge gradually as they approach the box, not enlarge suddenly from a small diameter. Sudden enlargements waste alot of ram pressure. The angle of ENLARGEMENT should not exceed 10 degrees."
This is where the Hans was built WRONG!!
The stock snorkels mouth area is @7531 sq/mm. As the volume of air comming in from the mouth approaches the two tubes at the frame, the square area of both tubes is @8748 sq/mm.
The air slows down as it pesses through the tubes, thus pressure will RISE.
Unfortunately, the Hans has a mouth area of @11,487 sq/mm. AS a result the air has to speed up to pass through the same two tubes in the airbox/frame, thus pressure DROPS!!
This is exactly what I saw on my road tests as rpm's and speed increased!!
The only benefit of the Hans is the 2.5 lb weight savings.
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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EastBayDave
Needs a job
Posts: 2245
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posted March 31, 2002 09:18 AM
quote:
Why would Kawi take such a step back and go down the bigger volume is better route if it costs hp? Hmmmmm.
FK
Easy: w/the new restrictions to 186mph (checkout new speedo), their only concern is now GETTING to that speed.
Move volume at lower speeds would accomplish this, yes???
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Enjoy the ride!
02' ZRX1200
00' ZX12R sold
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green monster
Novice Class
Posts: 56
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posted March 31, 2002 09:34 AM
I wish there was some real world results out here.... Or something very dependable you can bank on... I'm sitting here with both not sure which one to get rid of........ Damn decisions.....
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted March 31, 2002 09:51 AM
Results
The real world results are that the Hans LOOSES pressure on the road w/ rpm & speed increase!!
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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Y2KZX12R
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posted April 01, 2002 07:39 AM
EBD, I think your comment on the 02 ramair is close to what kawi was trying to achieve.
I wouldnt be suprised if the 02 ramair starts to build pressure sooner and actually makes more pressure below, say, 130 mph. I believe the 00-01 makes more pressure at 200 mph than the 02.
The R6 is a great example of this. It makes pressure sooner than most other bikes and reaches peak pressure sooner but its limited to a lower maximum airbox pressure. The last 20-30 MPH shows no increase in pressure and the system starts to actually loose pressure as the last 20 MPH is achieved.
Look at sport riders article from sept 99.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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green monster
Novice Class
Posts: 56
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posted April 01, 2002 11:24 AM
I got my stocker all seales up airtight and ready to go back on..... Just gotta do it this week.... I even sealed around the little weel nuts even though they will seal anyway........... But I'm keeping both... Already have the damn thing..... It would look good hanging in the garage I guess......LOL
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NOS Rocks
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