ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted February 25, 2002 07:11 AM
Thanks for the "HARD FACTS" information. This information has saved collectively thousands of dollars.....But this is also why "we" could not get the information about the benefits. This to me has also established the credibility of several board members that said, "the math was incorrect for the mod to be effective with changing other variables". This has also shown the "seat of pants" to mean nothing in terms what is really happening.
Now we know that the ram air pressure goes down using the monster snorkle. So my question is:::::::
What is the effect on mph in the 1/4? How is engine "performance" effected?!
Also, has anyone determined how much the computer can compensate for fuel? What is the base a/f ratio of the computer?
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All must bow to the "Ra Supremecy"...
  
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted February 25, 2002 07:28 AM
Wana Pitch In!?
If my test here has saved you Thousand's would you contribute some of it to me to cover my expense of the useless snorkel ?! 
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted February 25, 2002 07:57 AM
A few .01 me.
The location of the '01 snout puts it in "clean" air. This is paramount.
The size of an opening is NOT relevant to the ram air pressure produced. It is only relevant to the AMOUNT of air that will flow into the opening at that pressure. Ram pressure is dependent only on air density and speed.
The pilots among you will recognize the concept of TRUE AIR SPEED, where the instrument reading (which is created by moving air entering the small hole in the end of the pitot tube) must be corrected for altitude and temperature. This is a pretty complex area. Jet aircraft must us an "air data computer" that takes into consideration such things as the compressive heating of the air as it enters the pitot.
The notion of "air required" needing to equal "air used" is a drag consideration, not a power producing one.
ANY testing of the air inlet system on a moving vehicle will not reflect actual performance, and in fact, it is quite possible that a larger inlet will perform better in a dyno room but actually hurt in real world use as far as speed is concerned.
Consider this: As I've said before, the '01 was designed for top speed. This is now no longer a consideration, so without compromising performance up to 186 mph, the bike can be designed for the most appealing look rather than the best top speed performance.
I hope many of you are beginning to appreciate the depth of fine engineering put into this bike (and many others).
Doug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted February 25, 2002 08:20 AM
Psycho, I'm still looking at the data.
So atmospheric is 3.52v
On the dyno @10,000 rpm WOT the stock system was 3.35v
On the dyno @10,000 rpm WOT the Hans system was 3.36v
On the road @10,000 rpm WOT the stock system was always 3.51v
On the road @10,000 rpm WOT the Hans system was 3.44v
Hans system produced .12v more pressure on the road (3.44) vs the dyno 3.36.
Stock system produced .16v more pressure on the road 3.51 vs the dyno 3.35.
So it seems that its better to have a small opening and let the air enter and move down the duct than having a big opening and not using the air so it doesnt enter the duct.
On another note. In discussions with Bill I came to the conclusion that the air needs to be slowed down to exchange velocity for pressure. Remember energy can not be created or distroyed. As humans we can only change its form from one state to another state or states. So the loss of velocity is an exchange from kenetic energy to pressure.
This is good because we dont use the velocity of the ramair to make power. We use the pressure differential to get the air into the engine.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted February 25, 2002 08:24 AM
Engineering !!
That is the EXACT reason why I purchased this ZX12!!
When I saw the spec sheet for the fisrt time back in Sept.99 I knew it was the bike for me.... It's simple to see how much went into this bike vs. the Eye Abusea for example. It easily justifies the extra cost alone.
Doug, I do appreciate your input...Thank You !
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted February 25, 2002 08:30 AM
OH, 68 mb is 1 PSI
The best ramair system to date as of sept 99 was the zx9r.
It made 28mb of pressure. where as the Bussa made 14mb of pressure.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted February 25, 2002 08:33 AM
Info
Ambient pressure can vary from Hour to hour, so I ALWAYS stop the bike, shut down the engine, turn the ingnition back on and take a reading to get a base line BEFORE each test.
I always base my math on a particular test to get consistant results.
Example; the 4th gear test Amient was 3.52 vdc. The 6th gear test ambient was 3.53 vdc.
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted February 25, 2002 08:37 AM
 Edited By: psycho1122 on 25 Feb 2002 08:40
Yes the 12R can produce up to 56.81 mb !!
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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12RPilot
Pro
Posts: 1094
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posted February 25, 2002 02:28 PM
Hey Y2KZX12R....
I was wondering if your friend knows anything about airbox resonance. I know it's a factor in many racer designs but the layman hardly ever hears about it. I remember a test of ram air systems in a motorcycle mag once and the resonance was very apparent in the pressure graphs.
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If you aren't an AMA member, you're part of the problem.
NESBA #209
http://www.bikepics.com/members/12rpilot/04zx10r/
 
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zx12richard
Pro
The Green Monster..
Posts: 1133
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posted February 25, 2002 03:59 PM
psycho got a quick question.....
I got out my old ram air today.
(1)Do I remove the part thats screwed on to it on both sides and fill those round holes??????
(2)The hangdown pieces that are molded on the stock ram air did you cut them off or leave them open?????
I remove the hangdown part that has a screw on it. But do I cut the others off and fill the holes or let them be??? Thanxxxxxxxxx Richard
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted February 25, 2002 04:11 PM
Richard- I only capped off the "Removeable" tubes. I could not find anything good enough to "plug" the holes. DO NOT cut anything else on the system!!
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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zx12richard
Pro
The Green Monster..
Posts: 1133
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posted February 25, 2002 04:41 PM
Thannxxx I appreciate the response......
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted February 25, 2002 06:31 PM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 25 Feb 2002 18:34
12rpilot, I dont believe he has any 4 stroke piston engine knowledge. Other than the basics.
I believe you are refering to the first, second, third order etc. waves in the intake stacks? If so this is a unique thing to 4 stroke cycle engines. His job was designing ducts for jet aircraft like the B2 and other northrup projects like a supersonic transport aircraft.
But I will ask him.
Basically the front of the bike is clean. Its the tail thats very dirty. Ya gotta close up the hole you just punched.
He lives on the east coast again now so this 12r is getting a rubber glove examination... 
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FearsomeK
Novice Class
Posts: 96
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posted February 26, 2002 05:00 AM
Edited By: FearsomeK on 26 Feb 2002 05:06
This thread is excellent!
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TeamSpeed
Expert Class
Posts: 449
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posted February 26, 2002 06:01 AM
Other tests?
Now that we have a baseline of stock versus monster scoop, how about some tests where non-permanent changes were made to the scoop, like a middle thin strip that sticks out a little more than the scoop itself to break up the air differently, or other "weird" alterations? It would be interesting to see if there was one or two minor changes to the Hans design that gave an increase in both static air dyno tests and real-world top-end tests. Of course, I guess the argument would be why do this, if there is no compensation from Hans for all the work that is being put into this analysis.
I think it would interesting to try different configurations of the Hans scoop to see if it could be improved upon, being as inquisitive as I am!
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
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Posts: 3762
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posted February 26, 2002 07:23 AM
There is room for improvement on the stock ducting.
Its being looked into. This stuff takes time.
I'm looking for someone to possably produce a modified version from a working prototype. Not much luck so far.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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FearsomeK
Novice Class
Posts: 96
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posted February 26, 2002 08:09 AM
Hmmmmm
Guys,
I accept the data thats been given here. But it does not sit with me because the ultimate real world testing of a piped 12R mapped for the monster produced remarkable results on the 1/4 mile and top end for me at least.
Last year, the 12 set up with the monster beat like modded Busas on the top end by 10 - 15mph consistently. That takes serious hp at those speeds to do that (3hp per mph +/-), and that was with different riders. Of the bikes it was up against, many were on a par!!! on the dyno, some using the SAME dyno, yet they were destroyed in real performance on the day. Why?
The best of the busas last year was the TTS Busa, headwork, h/c pistons, cams, the works in terms of mods, lowered, airshifter etc. It puts out over 180 at the back wheel (10+ more than mine a week before the run!!!!!)and has featured in the mags. The monster clad STOCK ENGINED 12 matched and bettered it's performance consistently.
Then you account for the aero data that says i need more than 10hp more than him just to match him top end!
Then you account for the ram air hp that his full-modded busa has up its sleeve!
That means to match TTS, my 12 needed at least 20 - 25 extra hp. It did it every time, even with me on it (I'm a fat crap bastard) and it beat it comprehensively with a decent rider on board.
If the Monster was actually hampering my bike as the data suggests, where in hell were those ponies coming from??? 171 SAE is all it had on the static dyno.
It beat this bird again and again and utterly destroyed busas that were mod for mod with mine and with the same hp on the same dyno.
How?
FK
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FearsomeK
Novice Class
Posts: 96
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posted February 26, 2002 08:34 AM
Edited By: FearsomeK on 26 Feb 2002 17:10
Hmmmm
If, there is only so much pressurisation possible for any given mph as Doug et al and this data suggests, irrespective of the shape of the box,
and, you accept that if the airbox actually became pressurised positively above ambient, then not only would it force air into the throttle bodies (like a soft turbo), but also out into the less pressurised outside air via the open scoop causing a stack up of air at the front of the bike, that would impede the aerodynamics of the front of the bike,
could it be that the comparable drop in pressure is because the engine is demanding more air, which you would expect from an engine putting out more hp? More hp = more air consumed.
My bike had to be putting out alot more than the measured 171hp to destroy like-powered Busas and beat seriously built bikes like TTS. A bike putting out that much more hp, due to better flow or whatever, will be sucking MORE air out of the box at any given rpm or mph.
The higher the rpm, the more hp the Monster appears to generate on the dyno. What do we see in the results above, the higher the revs at any given speed, the lower the pressure when compared to stock. Could this simply be because the demand for air from the engine is greater?
And when considering only so much pressure can be generated at one end (scoop), if the demand for air at the other is higher, pressure in the box will be less?
Just thinking out loud guys, ok? I have felt what this combo on the 12 can do. The dyno operator who dyno'd the bike last year said it works by just looking at the quality of the graph..and these guys regularily appear in the mainstream mags over here.
So, .....?
FK
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ROCKET J
Zone Head
Goes to water over a dummy!!!
Posts: 602
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posted February 26, 2002 04:54 PM
Edited By: ROCKET J on 1 Apr 2002 00:02
ZX-12R (R for Ramjet)
I know that "ram air" works and works well.
However, I am still having a hard time believing that at these speeds, this "free horsepower" is bordering on the gains made by a mechanical supercharger.
There are some interesting studies that were performed by NACA and NASA, that might be of relevance.
I am in agreement with Doug Meyer on this one.
Rocket
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If I get any smarter, my head will explode!
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted February 26, 2002 05:27 PM
Not that I have ANY BUSINESS ...
... making any comments in this topic, it's never stopped me before.
FK, I personally think that there are literally a thousand other variables involved, besides maximum HP numbers. The dynamics of these engines are way beyond my comprehension. I have seen several 12Rs with just a pipe, PCIII, filters and advancer produce 180 RWHP and over 100 ft/lbs of torque on reasonablly accurate DJ250 dynos. There has been NO internal engine modifications and the screens are still in the OEM snorkle.
A 15% increase in RWHP, by just doing these simple modifications were unheard of prior to the introduction of the 12R. That increase is not too far from the same precentage increase on the heavily modified Busa you mentioned. One as simple minded as myself can only wonder why is this?
I've also seen a 1270 kitted 12R produce 207 RWHP, again still having the stock snorkle and screens! There will alway be a variance from one dyno run to another. Not only simple factors like engine and oil temps, but even things like tire temp (or even tire BRAND), chain tension and even the weight of the dyno operator, surely could be a factor in dyno results.
All of these factor do prove that the 12R is very sensitive to the most minor of modifications. All the same, this "sensitivity" can just as easily go in the opposite direction and have a negitive influence on the engine's performance. Using a dyno for testing the results of modifications is just for comparison, at best. It is hardly the "tell all" of perfomance engineering.
The time and resorces that were available to KHI during the design of the 12R would be very hard for even the most wealthiest and technocally minded 12R owner to match. At best, all we can do is stumble around blindly in our attempts to see what actually works and what doesn't. Here in lies the problem.
Lacking the resources, engineering knowledge, money and equipment, we ofter only try the type of modifications that has worked in the past on other motorcycles. Since the 12R was designed as a "total package", I don't think that many of the prior technics of perfomance modifications will apply.
It doesn't help in the fact that since we "know" that these mods worked before, we automatically assume that they will in the case of the 12R. It could be imagined that some will convence themselves that these "tried and true" modifaction worked, when in reality they did not. (Note: I am NOT refering to ANYONE)
I do know that I have had a number of "seat of the leathers" confirmation of an improvement, only to find out that lap times or dyno numbers beg the differ. Which is right? The dyno or my butt? The lap times or what's in my head?
IMHO, I have come to the conclusion that the 12R is the easiest bike to make minor modifications and recieve a major net gain in performance. I have also doncluded that it is the most difficult bike to seriously modify and show ANY gain. Quite often, it can actually reduce the bike's capabilities.
This opinion of mine does not solely apply to the engine, either. Modifications to the suspension, brake systems or any other aspect of the 12R can just as easily have a negative impact, as a positive one. What appears to be a small and insignificant factor in the 12R's design can just as easily be a major factor in the design of the "total package".
I guess myself and maybe many others really didn't pay attention or believe KHI and KMC when they said, "MY GAWD! IT'S IN THE DETAILS!" It's tests like these that do prove that indeed, it is in the details. I guess it's why the KHI engineers get to wear the white lab coats and we don't.
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted February 27, 2002 08:10 AM
ANSWERS ?
I E-Mailed Cycle World in an attempt to contact Kevin Cameron abut this in hopes he could shed a little light on the subject................
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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FearsomeKawasaki
Novice Class
Posts: 61
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posted February 28, 2002 11:49 AM
Ram Air
Question for the techies.
There are others out there who think the information given above is bollocks (not me i might add)as a mag test and individual tests by others on other boards have shown even the Hayabusa makes positive pressure in the air box.
Yet not once did the 12, the best out there for ram air, makes positive pressure in the air box. All it does is reduce negative pressure to just below ambient.
The 28mb quoted by the mag for the 9R, was that actually 28mb ABOVE outside pressure or simply a reduction of 28mb of the vaccum prevailing in the airbox due to the engine drawing air in?
FK
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted February 28, 2002 12:26 PM
The 28mb was above atmospheric pressure. That test in sportrider used 2 sensors. One in the AIRBOX and one for barometric pressure.
This test took readings in the throttle bodies from the factory MAP sensor.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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FearsomeKawasaki
Novice Class
Posts: 61
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posted February 28, 2002 01:24 PM
So does this mean the data above is flawed, or that it was measuring relative movement in pressure but from a different startpoint?
In other words, they were calibrated differently? Was it reading just below ambient when in fact it was +30mb or something in the box itself???
The data from the Sportsrider test and this test do say the same thing. This clearly shows a vaccum position exists even at 210mph, if only slightly. Certainly no pressure above ambient.
FK
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted February 28, 2002 05:01 PM
Edited By: psycho1122 on 26 Nov 2002 07:52
This test has got me thinking also..........The info that I obtained was from the "Intake Air Pressure Sensor". This sensor is located on the frame , just in front of the T.B.'s
It get's it's pressure/vacuum from lines that draw from just below the butterflies.
Does it acctually measure Airbox Pressure ?!?!
What remapping did you do Fearsome? On the DJ250, the A/F ratio's were right on even w/ the Hans !!
Out on the road, because of the sensor "seeing" less pressure, the bike is being leaned out by the ECU. (my nice dark grey soot has turned lite slate color and the bike feels flat)
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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