osti33
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posted July 20, 2005 03:43 PM
 Edited By: osti33 on 20 Jul 2005 17:24
Cam problems (with pics)
On my last trip to the track on the last pass of the day my bike lost some power and started "ticking". No exhaust leak so I thought I tapped a valve. I went home did a compression test(it was fine, 210psi in every hole) pulled the head off the bike all the valves and pistons all look good.
The cams and buckets however don't look so good. These cams only have about 30 passes on them and are showing some serious wear. My guess(and it's only a guess) is that maybe the cams weren't hardened properly. Hopefully you guy can look at these pictures and tell me what you think the problem is...
Never found the source of the tick. Pulled the pan. No bearing material. I have to dig into the head a little more. I'm going to pull all the valves and springs and see if mabye I have a broken spring or something. I have to find this noise.
What do you guys think? Any help would be great.
Thanks.
I know the pics are big. It makes them easy to see. 
First picture is one of the cam lobes. All the lobes aren't like this but most of them are.
This pictures is of one off the buckets. Most of the scratches you can't feel but the ones I circled are pretty deep and can easily be felt with my finger. Not all of the buckets look this bad but they all have some wear.
  
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aliveagain
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posted July 20, 2005 06:15 PM
I wondered if your oil filter clogged or colapsed.Also,were the bad lobes and buckets on the exhaust side,maybe bad seals?
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osti33
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posted July 20, 2005 06:19 PM
Edited By: osti33 on 20 Jul 2005 19:20
quote:
I wondered if your oil filter clogged or colapsed.Also,were the bad lobes and buckets on the exhaust side,maybe bad seals?
Both cams had bad lobes on them and all but about 3 or 4 buckets are bad. I checked the oil, cut open the filter and dropped the pan and pickup. Didn't see any thing obvious.
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VincentHill
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posted July 21, 2005 06:35 AM
My 1983 Honda Interceptor started ticking on the way back home from Baltimore in I-95 and took it to the dealer. I had flat followers. I was told that getting cams for a 12 is problematic because of the Heat treat they need and it is usually not compatible with the engine. I assume the Cam lube was used and non Synthetic Oil for break in?
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osti33
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posted July 21, 2005 07:57 AM
quote:
I assume the Cam lube was used and non Synthetic Oil for break in?
Yes and yes.
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VincentHill
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posted July 21, 2005 09:20 AM
quote:
quote:
I assume the Cam lube was used and non Synthetic Oil for break in?
Yes and yes.
Then the Surface / Heat treatment was not agreeable. The Lady that owns Web Cam once told me that on the Kawasaki Liquid Cooled engines, they had real problems making Cams that "Lasted" (Not worked) SHe suggested that I leave that alone and look for HP Elsewhere.
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aliveagain
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posted July 21, 2005 09:20 AM
I'm only guessing,but how long does it sit in between rides?Could it be from acid or race gas contaminate in the oil?
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entropy
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posted July 21, 2005 09:56 AM
Edited By: entropy on 24 Jul 2005 03:49
"The Lady that owns Web Cam once told me that on the Kawasaki Liquid Cooled engines, they had real problems making Cams that "Lasted" (Not worked) SHe suggested that I leave that alone and look for HP Elsewhere."
Something smells funny... :thumbsdown:
I had a set of Web cams go South and there was NO damage to the buckets.
My Muzzy cams look as almost as pristene as the day they went in (2 years and 3 motors ago)
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osti33
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posted July 21, 2005 12:02 PM
quote:
I'm only guessing,but how long does it sit in between rides?Could it be from acid or race gas contaminate in the oil?
No race gas here. Just good ol 93 octane pump gas. I don't ride it during the week but race it pretty much every weekend.
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osti33
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posted July 21, 2005 12:05 PM
quote:
"The Lady that owns Web Cam once told me that on the Kawasaki Liquid Cooled engines, they had real problems making Cams that "Lasted" (Not worked) SHe suggested that I leave that alone and look for HP Elsewhere."
Something smells funny... :thumbsdown:
I had a set of Web cams go South and there was NO damage to the buckets.
My Muzzy cams look as pristene as the day they went in (2 years and 3 motors ago)
Yeah, I'm going to try and work it out with the person who I got these cams from. If I am not happy with that I will probably just go with the Muzzy cams. The grinds on the Muzzys and these are very close anyways.
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VincentHill
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posted July 21, 2005 12:19 PM
And Muzzy knows what it takes to make the cams compatible with the other Metal in the valve train! I would still ask what the cam life is going to be though!
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harryzx-12
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posted July 21, 2005 03:31 PM
Improper heat treatment it looks like to me.
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osti33
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posted July 21, 2005 04:53 PM
Harry, those buckets looked fine when I took my stock cams out. Do you think these cams were to hard or to soft??
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MadMike
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posted July 21, 2005 08:26 PM
Oh Harry dosent know shit about metals... just ask outlaw... Oh he left...LMAO......
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NOS1290
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posted July 22, 2005 03:42 AM
Another thing you should consider is Spring pressure. I know its counter-intuitive, but low spring pressue destroys cams and buckets. The 12 has very low spring pressure. I think I measured mine to be around 40 - 42 pounds after only 1000 miles on the motor. This pressure drops into the high 30s as milage builds up. If you run the motor at redline, you will begin to float the valves, gauranteed. High lift cams are really bad. As the valve floats, the bucket slams back down onto the surface of the cam, and brinelling occurs. Its not a wear failure, it more an impact failure. Sometimes the buckets dish out like yours. Sometimes the cams go away on the back side of the lobe. The solution is to bump up spring pressure and keep the cam in contact with the bucket. For high lift cams or people that spend a lot of time at 11.5 k, you should be running 60 - 62 lbs of seat pressure. Thats not to say that a bad lubrication system or poorly hardened cams won't wipe things out either. Check to see if the wear on the cam is on the back side of the lobe. If it is, its definitely spring pressure. Just a thought.
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MadMike
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posted July 22, 2005 06:44 AM
Hey does have the HD Spring kit in his motor...
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Y2KZX12R
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posted July 22, 2005 07:36 AM
Looks like the cams are soft. Bring the cams to a local machine shop and have the surface hardness tested. Show the results to who ever you got the cams from. Were they welded or new from blanks? How close is the cam lobe coming to the edge of the tappet?
Is/was it running off? Looks like it was. check the tappets that have less wear, they will show the edge better. The area where the wear is, is usually from running off the tappet, I can tell they had the lobe tapered for tappet rotation. Thats good. But is it excessive? Usually you will see less than 50% contact at the beginning of the opening ramp and at the full lift area more than 50%.
Use new buckets and a good cam lube for startup with new cams even if they look like they have little or no wear. Break in the cams on atartup. The first 10 min cams are run will make a big difference in how long they will last.
Good luck.
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bossman12r
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posted July 22, 2005 08:29 AM
I have not heard of anyone having problems with megacams, is it just WEB cams that has this problem?
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osti33
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posted July 22, 2005 09:02 AM
Thanks for all of this info guys. I plan on pulling all the valves and springs out of the head this weekend. When I do that I am going to check the pressure on all of the springs.
NOS1290, Most of the lobes have wear on the back side of the lobes but some of them also show wear on the front of the lobes as well.
Y2KZX12R, We have a full machine shop at work. I will have them check the hardness and let you guys know what I find out. Any idea what the hardness should be? The cams are welded not made from blanks.
I will post a picture of the bucket with the least amout of wear on it and maybe you can tell if is running off the tappet. It doesn't look like it is to me but another opinion never hurts.
Thnaks for all the help guys.
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VincentHill
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posted July 22, 2005 09:25 AM
quote:
I have not heard of anyone having problems with megacams, is it just WEB cams that has this problem?
The good news is, Web Cam knows this wan stays out of this area. They make great cams for the Air Cooled engines but cannot get it right on the water Cooled engines!
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osti33
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posted July 22, 2005 10:27 AM
Here is a pic of the bucket with the least amount of wear. I'm sorry it came out a little blurry. It shows no real wear at all.
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entropy
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posted July 24, 2005 02:46 AM
Edited By: entropy on 24 Jul 2005 12:47
yep - yep - yep!!!!!
For a "one post wonder"  NOS1290 is right on the money!!!
In oct 2004 i put in a new set of heavy springs to go with the Muzzy cams; measured seat pressure of all valves at 62-64#
yesterday i measured again; exh were all at 61-64#, but intakes are down to generally at 57-59, except #5,#6 at 55-56.
I looked carefully at int cam lobes #5,#6 and sure as shit there is a bit of wear on the backside. (coincidence???...)
another thing to watch out for if you have lo spring pressure and are using ss valves is mushrooming of the valve collet groove.
quote:
Another thing you should consider is Spring pressure. I know its counter-intuitive, but low spring pressue destroys cams and buckets. The 12 has very low spring pressure. I think I measured mine to be around 40 - 42 pounds after only 1000 miles on the motor. This pressure drops into the high 30s as milage builds up. If you run the motor at redline, you will begin to float the valves, gauranteed. High lift cams are really bad. As the valve floats, the bucket slams back down onto the surface of the cam, and brinelling occurs. Its not a wear failure, it more an impact failure. Sometimes the buckets dish out like yours. Sometimes the cams go away on the back side of the lobe. The solution is to bump up spring pressure and keep the cam in contact with the bucket. For high lift cams or people that spend a lot of time at 11.5 k, you should be running 60 - 62 lbs of seat pressure. Thats not to say that a bad lubrication system or poorly hardened cams won't wipe things out either. Check to see if the wear on the cam is on the back side of the lobe. If it is, its definitely spring pressure. Just a thought.
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osti33
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posted July 24, 2005 12:39 PM
I think that may be my problem. I am going to measure the spring pressure on day this week when it cools down a bit.
It's 101 degrees and 62 percent humidity right now. I know some of you guys are use to that shit but not me. I'm about to die!
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dougmeyer
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posted July 24, 2005 06:35 PM
What valve springs and cams are these?
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osti33
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posted July 24, 2005 07:36 PM
Doug, I don't want that information public just yet. I sent it to you in a PM. Check it out and let me know what you think.
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