psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted June 07, 2005 07:06 AM
ANYBODY runing a 1270 w/ 105in./105ex. Cam Timing?
If anyone responds, I would like to obtain a Dyno Graph to determine the RPM power drop off point.
Also, do you happen to know your compression psi cold??
I am currently running 105 in / 100 ex. on my 1270 and my cold psi is 245 a hole. I would like to bleed off some pressure by retarding(?) the exhaust cam.
Thanks!
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted June 09, 2005 06:37 AM
Ok....How about 105/104??........105/103??
Bueler?
Bueler?
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
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posted June 09, 2005 04:27 PM
Hey,
you've got slotted gears, move it a bit and see what you get. Then degree it........
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Ra12r
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posted June 10, 2005 03:40 AM
Doug and Rob, why is it so hard to "GIVE ANY" information about the cam settings?!?! You guys have tried everything and KNOW why the numbers are for the different settings. What would it hurt to share??? If I had a dyno and the answers, I would share. I don't understand the big deal about not operating as a team. If I sold cams, that would certainly be a great help to my customers.
Sadly, on the other pages, the busa guys will help!
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spencercyclecom
Zone Head
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posted June 10, 2005 08:10 AM
 Edited By: spencercyclecom on 10 Jun 2005 09:24
Every engine and application and rider is not same......
I can tell WHY engine builders dont give out info.... Its how we make our living.We are the ones that make things go fast and figure out HOW TO get the best performance out of the machines people buy and want to improve.....Sorry for being blunt...but thats why.
The reason you have it on other boards...and it is not bike specific...is cause of guys telling what they know...trying to impress people with their knowledge. In most cases this knowledge is paid for and told to them by the shops and builders that learned it from hard work and testing....so NOW this guys goes around telling the info like he is a wizard.
i know engine builders that will not give out info... and if they build you a engine they seal and if the seal is broken...the you are SOL..... I also know of a engine builder that as of last week told a guy here in MY shop what to set his numbers up on and i can TELL YOU NOW it was way to high....... they guy would not listen to my advice...so i did the cams at the numbers he wanted and the numbers that were told to him OVER THE PHONE....YES the guy called the shop on his cell phone and ASKED the engine builder what to set the numbers at......
This the same person that has blown up the engine 2 times now cause he wont listen to WHY his engines are blowing up...but he is a master builder now (since he calls all the shops and ask questions)and knows what he is doing (LOL) His engines are not blowing cause cam numbers....but for other reasons.
Let me ask you this...would you set your cams up @ 112 intake 110 exh??? LMFAO! If the application called for something lower???
Would you start a brand new engine up with out a oil pressure gauge attached???? AFTER you WERE TOLD that the reasons for blowing your engines were oil pressure issues???
This is why it is hard to get answers.
Came in the other day saying he had no midrange...I WONDER WHY!
I see it all the time...... Just stating the facts that no one else will..... pardon me for being blunt...but this is the reason. I know that any shop that is in it for the long haul will not give out info that they use to make a living.......I know builders that will tell you they dont know...or yes that could work...and heres the best one....never thought of doing that way....
RA,
If you had a dyno and all the overhaed that goes with running a succesful shop.........you would need people to PAY you for your hard earned knowledge to keep that shop up and running.
Besides dyno blow engines LOL...just kidding go easy on me there big fellow! :-)
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Thanks
Doug Ray
SpencerCycle.com
SpencerCycle Center Inc.
Spencer Performance Group Inc.
Toll Free 1-800-510-1945 ext #10
International 1-800-510-1945 ext #11
Local/Tech 1-704-642-0987 ext #12
Fax 1-704-642-0987
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted June 11, 2005 06:19 AM
Doug Spencer.
I understand what you're saying about the shops that build for the public, but there are others here in the know.
SPECIAL THANKS TO DOUG MEYER, and RYAN SCHNITZS.
they have always given good information. Kinda suprised at Dougs response especially with a muzzy kit.
Not everyone can send their bike to a big shop to get it built.
I will bet there are a lot more 1270 assembled by the ower or friends than built by big shops. One day i will have a big Carpenter , JC, or LEE built motor but I can't afford to do that now. FOR ~$1500 we can assemble a 1270/1290 with good valve springs and slotted cam sprockets if we do the labor.
A shop would want double that.
I know there are tips and tricks to perfect this build that will be missed by the locals
but you have to crawl before you walk. Help us crawl and when it's time to walk you will
probably be there too.
This is a small sport and it will only grow if we can get new people in .
No that don't mean that you give away your best setup but you could give good info.
IF all a shop has to offer is cam numbers for $1500-2500, just maybe 
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Ra12r
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posted June 13, 2005 04:56 AM
Spencer, I hope you know that I was not refering to you above. I will always call you Spencer for clearity. Now, I do agree with what you say, and know plenty of guys(some are friends) that just do not listen to "common sense". I actually know a guy that had his busa at those cam numbers! It did not MPH.....but his "builder" told him that those were good numbers. There is plenty of other good advise that folks don't listen too.
However, there are also others around and even on this website that do listen. There are also those here that have put in time and money to R&D other than yourself or Muzzy's. But, if everyone stay autistic and scarey about what they know, then EACH BUILDER is doomed to reinvent the wheel with everybike and everybuild. Most folks have to hire others to do the work even if the knowledge is shared. Spencer, you could save alot of money and time if you could recieve "information" about what others have tried and the results. Then you could help others likewise. The growth about this motor would have been much faster!!!
My experiences with this motor have been very "trial and error". Why? Because everything is a damn secret!!! I try to share and have shared as much info as I know with people here. They know who they are, I have LOST NOTHING!!! You NEVER LOSE BY GIVING.... There are limits and balance to everything, but this cam stuff is rediculous. If everyshop just tried ONE setting then we could all share the info and would ALL know for an extreme less amount of time and money! Is that so hard to think about. Then what folks decide to do with the information would be up to them. I remember calling Coby Adams back in spring 2001 when I was building my 14R. Hoping to get a few answers to short cut getting a crank larger than what Muzzy was selling in my cases. His reply, "I didn't know that large of a crank would fit, what are you having to do?" Very nice guy, but he hadn't tried it yet, so I told him what I knew. I learned about the Carillo clearances and a bunch of other stuff the HARD WAY. Sharing everything that I have learned has NOT cost me one cent or one race. If that information is ALL racing was about then I could understand that point more, but winning a race is about MUCH MORE than cam numbers.
Vance and HInes motors, that you refered to above(all secretive) concerning the sealed engines, is one of those monopoly cases. Monopoly's are suppose to be illegal. Besides those V-twins should be in their own class.
Bottom line though, these engines are NOT that complex. They are just a bit more than a briggs and straton motor. But still VERY SIMPLE as motor go! Very soon, we will all have a closed loop system and won't need dyno's or a tuner to get the maps correct. When that happens shops will NOT LOSE, there will be something else that a dyno will be marketed towards as the solution. Right now it is the "correct map" even though the bikes are within 90% of the correct ratio from the factory. Plus you already know that dyno tuning and track tuning is different......SMILE A dyno map will usually lower your MPH at the track, because dyno HP is a leaner A/F than track A/F ratio for MPH. Another secret out!!! How much money is everyone losing now?
Last thing, if a company can sell a cam and market it as better and then turn right around and SAY that they have to much money in R&D to share cam degree settings plus results to SHOW the improvement at the different degrees, then it is all a bunch of BS to me!!!
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spencercyclecom
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posted June 13, 2005 08:01 AM
Edited By: spencercyclecom on 13 Jun 2005 09:02
quote:
His reply, "I didn't know that large of a crank would fit, what are you having to do?" Very nice guy, but he hadn't tried it yet, so I told him what I knew. I learned about the Carillo clearances and a bunch of other stuff the HARD WAY.
TRUST ME!!! Coby knows how to do what you have done... that s just a good example of what i am talking about. I know him personaly and his shop is around 15 miles from ours.....Coby has been in this game a long time and knows how to play. He knows how to make a living also
A good dyno tuner will know how to set up a map for the track..... I do it all the time.
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Thanks
Doug Ray
SpencerCycle.com
SpencerCycle Center Inc.
Spencer Performance Group Inc.
Toll Free 1-800-510-1945 ext #10
International 1-800-510-1945 ext #11
Local/Tech 1-704-642-0987 ext #12
Fax 1-704-642-0987
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Ra12r
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posted June 16, 2005 04:35 AM
I guess I was the fool for "SHARING" what I knew then?! I am not trying to "make a living" off every little thing I know or learn.
Sadly, some people are ALL ABOUT MONEY. They can't see the tighter they close their fist the less they can hold or recieve. Good luck Spencer, make all the money you can now, you can't take it with later.......smile.
Spencer, I am glad you can tune a race bike on the dyno. Not many is that talented to not need to tune to "real" conditions. I guess I was not talking about you!
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fish_antlers
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posted June 16, 2005 08:17 AM
Ra... why be like that? Browse this site and see the wealth of information and the level of particpation from professionals like Doug Meyer.. from the OEMs....
point us to a site that even comes close...
ask questions in specific terms here and there's a good chance you'll get it answered, but hey.. this site isnt the genie in the magic bottle...
perhaps yer not rubbing it the right way or saying the right things fer the genie to come out?
Doug (Spencercycle)... were you at MIR? Did I miss you?
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dougmeyer
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posted June 16, 2005 10:23 PM
Guys,
Some of you make assumptions that certain people and or shops are withholding information because you assume that we KNOW something that we do not know.
Psycho and I speak on the phone occasionally and sometimes at length. I've given him my cell # and am happy to answer his questions. I like talking to him because he THINKS things through before he calls (most of the time :-) )He called me regarding my answer above. I really had no other answer. Who the hell knows what lobe centers HIS engine will require to yield a certain cranking pressure. I sure don't, so I suggested that he look for the answer. When developing engines at Muzzys, the guys build a combination- one that they intend to sell (1270 etc) and determine the best settings for THAT combination. Those numbers are freely given out. If you are using different pistons, big throttle bodies, etc. The numbers will change and THEY DON'T KNOW what to tell you. The only information that Rob withholds is actual design info regarding Muzzys proprietary part designs. There's nothing wrong with that and it is normal practice.
Ra, if you were putting a big crank in a set of cases, why would you assume that Coby or Doug Ray or I or Rob have done the same? We do what we do, you do what you do because you think you know better. By the way- Missed you at MIR
My answer to Psycho was not a smartass answer. It's just what I've done at Bonneville more than once. I want cranking pressure - so I move the cams around and search for it. Then the Great Salt Dyno tells me if I was right.
Doug
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spencercyclecom
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posted June 16, 2005 11:48 PM
RA12 might be(i think) a GOULD!
He is not a azzgaurd......j
just kidding RA12...just joking around... I am a SCI FI freak and I love Stargate Atlantis and SG1
bisides RA12, i pmed Psyco days ago what i would set the cams at......ect ect.... I work in mysterious ways....see
____________
Thanks
Doug Ray
SpencerCycle.com
SpencerCycle Center Inc.
Spencer Performance Group Inc.
Toll Free 1-800-510-1945 ext #10
International 1-800-510-1945 ext #11
Local/Tech 1-704-642-0987 ext #12
Fax 1-704-642-0987
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted June 17, 2005 06:16 AM
Opps,
Didn't seem like a normal Doug M response.
Guess i mis-read it.
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dougmeyer
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posted June 17, 2005 10:33 AM
Huh?
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NINJA12
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posted June 17, 2005 10:39 AM
quote:
they have always given good information. Kinda suprised at Dougs response especially with a muzzy kit.
In response to my eariler statement.
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21895
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posted June 17, 2005 05:09 PM
quote:
RA12 might be(i think) a GOULD!
He is not a azzgaurd......j
just kidding RA12...just joking around... I am a SCI FI freak and I love Stargate Atlantis and SG1
bisides RA12, i pmed Psyco days ago what i would set the cams at......ect ect.... I work in mysterious ways....see
dont get me going... I know more about that than you ever will... I built it.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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fish_antlers
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posted June 17, 2005 05:09 PM
seriously
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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spencercyclecom
Zone Head
Posts: 535
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posted June 17, 2005 06:27 PM
got any pics of what you did????? I am a BIG Fan!
cant WAIT till the new season that starts in a few weeks
____________
Thanks
Doug Ray
SpencerCycle.com
SpencerCycle Center Inc.
Spencer Performance Group Inc.
Toll Free 1-800-510-1945 ext #10
International 1-800-510-1945 ext #11
Local/Tech 1-704-642-0987 ext #12
Fax 1-704-642-0987
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fish_antlers
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The Truth is Out There
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posted June 17, 2005 07:39 PM
I do have pics.. lots... worked there for 8 years... whaddya wanna know? (of course I cant tell ya anything about this season etc.. duh! )
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ra12r
Zone Head
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posted June 18, 2005 06:47 AM
I did miss MIR!  I WILL be at an event in the future however.
Doug, when Muzzy offered a 7mm crank for sale, why wouldn't I think folks were doing the same? Besides we ALL know that is what drag racers do and Muzzy was all about drag racing the zx12 during that time.
If all must know, I am the one who punished "Q" for his actions of interference!!!
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted June 19, 2005 05:11 PM
Well, you might- But like I said, it's about the combination, and what we did had no connection with what Coby may be doing and most times information was not shared.
Doug
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted June 19, 2005 11:54 PM
doug,
check yr PM's! 
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