Ra12r
Zone Head
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posted May 18, 2005 11:11 AM
Balancing Billet Clutch Basket
After recently doing a major balance check during assmebly, I decided to have all the rotating parts checked for balance. After my last rebuild, I really felt that the vibration was excessive, so this time I am trying to minimize vibration through balance.
I don't have many MUZZY parts on my bike, but as many know about my original problem with the return of my clutch core for the billet clutch basket I purchased. So long story short, I have a Muzzy billet clutch basket in my bike.
I decided since it also rotates to have its balance checked. The place that balanced my crank and rods checked it. It was off by 3.2 grams during rotational balancing, on one side of the basket. I am not sure at what ratio the clutch basket turns, but at thousands of RPM's this can contribute to vibration.
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ZXLNT
Needs a job
Kawpuke Extraordinare
Posts: 2853
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posted May 18, 2005 01:33 PM
1.596 is the primary drive ratio
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matt sterbator
Pro
Hiding in the bushes
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posted May 18, 2005 03:52 PM
I was under the impression that the billet baskets are balanced.
...atleast from Falicon anyway.
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BA
Pro
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posted May 18, 2005 07:14 PM
yeah, me too Matt. nothing like paying for something you think you're getting and then not getting it. (I could spew for 30 min on my recent engine build alone)
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your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
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posted May 18, 2005 07:18 PM
under the impression that falicon made the baskets muzzy sold.
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osti33
Needs a job
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posted May 18, 2005 07:24 PM
quote:
under the impression that falicon made the baskets muzzy sold.
You are correct.
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TurboBlew
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posted May 18, 2005 07:52 PM
Im sure Falicon will rebalance it for you.
Ive seen quite a few baskets... and YCIS's is the only one without any kinda balancing grind marks.
He has the perfect specimen.....even on the welds of the new rivets!
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
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posted May 18, 2005 09:48 PM
The billet baskets are not balanced as there is no need to do this. They are by definition turned from a solid billet of aluminum. Lathes like this are generally true to a tenth or better. The axial portion of the machining is done by a CNC mill, also accurate within a tenth in all axis, so the whole part is concentric and true and can't really be "out of balance" to any appreciable degree. The billet part is much more consistent and consistant than the stock casting. Just look at the two parts. The billet basket is attached to the gear with some fairly precision bushings to ensure concentricity. What probably IS out of balance, though, is that whole cush drive mess with the springs in it. As you can easily see, the springs rattle around in the stamped steel retainers and these part are not exactly "precision". If you don't have any "vibration" from a stock clutch basket you certainly won't get any by putting the billet part on it.
I'm curious. How far out was your crank? And how many places did they drill?
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rac4it
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Bergie
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posted May 19, 2005 03:59 PM
who cares about vibration anyway step up the jets you wont feel a thing 
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krexken
Zone Head
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posted May 19, 2005 04:25 PM
I see no machining marks on the inside of the basket. Looks like a forging to me. The outside is machined but I see room for error if the inside is simply the results of forging. Possibly it's got some funky finish on it to cover up the machine marks on the inside of it though.
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dougmeyer
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posted May 19, 2005 10:01 PM
Not so Krex. Machined from billet. Machined all over. ("billet basket" get it?.......") This is one of the reasons they are so pricey. It's a fairly big chunk of aluminum that gets turned into pretty big pile of chips.
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Ra12r
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posted May 20, 2005 01:35 PM
My crank was initially out by .78 grams and reduced to .33 grams. However, my carillo rods were off by 5 grams between the lite to heaviest. All parts were weighed seperately before assembly. The 2 rods were balanced as a whole but not end to end. The pistons (JE) were right on with wrist pins. The rods were subsequently balanced end to end and then as a whole. Now all are less than 1 gram off.
Between the carillos being out of balance and the basket I am sure that the vibration was a combo. The basket was cut in the grooves inside in the area that looks like a half circle groove to be balance in one of the grooves.
Assuming things are balanced is something I have had to quit doing.
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dougmeyer
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posted May 20, 2005 02:32 PM
It's kind of a relative term. All these parts are "balanced" in design and manufacture. You mean something like "re-balanced to closer tolerances than the manufacturer has deemed acceptable and to be within a standard error". A lot of the attention to this and other traditional "blueprinting" processes comes from a time (before CNC machining and precision casting methods) when these parameters could (and should have been) improved upon. Today, especially in mass produced high performance engines like in our bikes, the factory tolerances are better than what used to be achieved by aftermarket "massaging" not too very long ago.
Carillo rods off by FIVE GRAMS? Hmmm.... weigh a few a stock ones.
D.
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Ra12r
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posted May 21, 2005 07:35 AM
I agree that the term "balanced" can be relative. I am trying to be specific however the process of "Weight" balancing in regards to rotational movement. So that ALL rotating parts are not creating a condition like a ceiling fan with a rotational wobble.
That being said, my Carillo rods, which came with a "spec sheet" for total weight, were ultimately different from rod to rod. Then on top of that the rods were different weights when comparing the crank end to crank ends and piston ends to piston ends. When weighing the whole rod on the scale the weights were a maximal of 5 grams difference. But when weighing the ends vs ends the difference was worse. The final results were ends being balanced to the gram between each rod and which ultimately improved the whole rod balancing each other. The two rods that were wholly weighed and were the same were different from end to end.
There is just an assumption that these things are balanced "evenly" for rotational reasons. But, mass production does have tolerance variances. Us builders and users just need to know that the stuff needs to be checked and fully balanced is MOST situations. To balance my clutch basket cost $100.00 at my crank machinist.
I have never checked stock rods for comparison balance..........?! I feel you are saying something...........smile
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TurboBlew
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posted May 21, 2005 08:26 AM
$100 to balance a clutch basket? Seems expensive especially when its included in the $365 price of a new one
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Ra12r
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posted May 22, 2005 07:53 AM
I agree!!! I was not very happy when I picked it up. I was told that because they had to spend more time to figure out how to do it exactly, they charged more. It was still expensive.
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dougmeyer
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posted May 22, 2005 05:08 PM
Had to figure out how to do it??????? I can smell that fish clear from here. No balance procedure is simpler than a simple rotatiing mass with an easy to find center.
Yes, I was hinting about the rod weights. You would most likely find the stock rods closer, with a lighter small end (reciprocating) weight and I can't remember the numbers right now but I think lighter overall as well. The big end is "rotational weight" and as you move away from the crank pin the weight has a reciprocating factor rather than a rotational one. Balancing is a pretty esoteric science. Kind of an art, because you can play with the percentages of rotational/reciprocating/overall to yield different balance factors and different effects.
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Ra12r
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posted May 22, 2005 06:00 PM
Well, I think part of the "guess work" was determining how to remove the weight to balance and not weaken the hub. They verbalized that they had never recieved a request to balance this item nor had seen this item as they do car cranks. This is since that to balance cranks the procedure is to drill to remove weight. I strongly expressed when I dropped it off that drilling was not something I felt they could do and I suggested the area (where they shaved off weight) as the possible best area to remove weight to balance. I just hope things are more balanced this time.
3.2 grams is not alot of weight, I understand this, but at high rotation speed it does contribute when it does not have to be there.
Question....... "What is the tolerances that our hub is considered to be balanced?"
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kllrvet
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posted May 22, 2005 09:04 PM
I wonder if I need to get my basket balanced? I installed a Falicon billet basket on my first 12, and the clutch made quite a bit of noise at idle. I sold that bike, but kept the basket, and put it in my second 12. I still have the same noise. The sound is the plates rattling. Is the normal with a billet basket?
Tony
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kangpow
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posted May 22, 2005 11:56 PM
My billet basket does the same.
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dougmeyer
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posted May 23, 2005 06:51 PM
Areyou guys are confusing a couple things?- When you have the basket assy in your hand - off the bike, the springs rattle. This is normal, they don't rattle in use, when they are loaded. As far as the clutch rattling in use - well anybody else ever hear this on a 12?
The billet basket does have a differnt sound, but I wouldn't call it a rattle. It "rings" because of the material if you strike it like a bell - the stock part doesn't do that.
Ra, I don't know I'd have to see a stock one spun and see what the range is. I wouldn't expect there to be very much variance. Like I said earlier, I'd be surprised if any clutch basket was the source of a noticeable vibration. I guess you'll know when you get it all back together though, won't you.
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kllrvet
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posted May 23, 2005 11:18 PM
The sound I hear is just like the noises you would hear from a stock clutch, only louder. When you pull the lever in it is gone. I have just ignored it, and have put maybe 3000 miles on the basket without any adverse effects. I have always wondered if it was a balance problem, or just the way the billet basket makes the clutch sound. I have a friend who rode it, and he was commenting on it as well (his clutch is stock).
Tony
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NINJA12
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posted May 24, 2005 05:29 AM
Did you add heavy clutch springs at the same time?
I've had more noise from changing spring than changing
to a billet basket.
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kllrvet
Expert Class
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posted May 24, 2005 11:29 AM
I did three heavy springs at the same time I did the basket. Hmmm.... maybe that is the noise.
Tony
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ZX14 cam chain tensioner making noise? I have the set it and forget it fix. PM me if I can help.
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kcadby
Pro
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posted May 25, 2005 03:55 PM
How did you ballance the CAMS??? 
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