TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted May 03, 2005 08:51 AM
 Edited By: TedG on 3 May 2005 14:16
ZX12 + ZX10 owners
I have a question for the people who have owned or do own a ZX12 AND own or have owned a ZX10. What do you think of the 10 compared to the 12? I am not talking about comfort or riding position. I am talking about stuff like throttle wheelies, and how much fun the bike is to ride in comparison to the 12. To me the 12 is a hoot, and has been a stellar performer. But lately I have not had much time to ride, or even visit these forums. With that being said, and only having a limited amout of time to ride, I was thinking of getting someting that fits my schedule better, a 2 hour road burner. It seems from the little I have read that it is about equal to the Suzuki. Am I wrong? Also is the 10 as brutal as the 12? Because its brutality is one of my favorite things about the 12.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
  
|
fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
|
posted May 03, 2005 01:24 PM
Ted.. first off.. welcome back.. long time no see... second.. check out the 10R section of the site.. lots of info about this there... http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=19&TID=10641&pagenumber=1
IMHO I prefer the 10R... I'll try to dig up som links as I've given my 2 $ werth on your question before... mostly located in the 10R Zone..
(main forums index or from the homepage )
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
|
fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
|
posted May 03, 2005 01:33 PM
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=19&TID=10705
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
|
TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted May 03, 2005 02:08 PM
After reading Fish's and Swft's reviews, I am not that excited. Let me drill down a bit. Compared to the 12, how are the roll on wheelies? Remember I live at 4500 and sometimes ride at 7000 feet and I take a power hit of 10-25% which effects smaller displacement bikes worse. If I am going to buy a "short haul" bike the sucker better be fun. I enjoy the wrestling match of the bigger bike (something to do the flat tracker in me, why a 40 incher is more fun than a 360 was). But there is nothing better than a bike that will head for the moon with nothing more than a gentle turn of the wrist.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
|
TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted May 03, 2005 02:39 PM
Also does it have a fuel guage?
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
|
zx9rcr500r
Expert Class
Kawasakis UNI-TRAK®
Posts: 361
|
posted May 03, 2005 03:39 PM
No gauge. Just a low " FUEL FUEL FUEL"lndicator and light.
|
CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
|
posted May 03, 2005 04:38 PM
I also like the bigger bike...But the 10 is light and small for running around town...
But it depends on how tall you are and your weight...I'm 5' 6" and was'nt happy with how small it is...I didnt like how close my helmet shield came to the windscreen when tucked in, also you have to put the helmet on the tank to get under the windscreen, good for racing but not for street riding!!!...just my .02 cents...
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
|
redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
|
posted May 03, 2005 05:02 PM
Edited By: redelk on 3 May 2005 18:02
quote:
After reading Fish's and Swft's reviews, I am not that excited.
Obviously, Fish didn't want to curse you with my "review"...
An hour long read - Redelk's ZX10R review
quote:
Let me drill down a bit. Compared to the 12, how are the roll on wheelies?
Let's see... if you go one tooth down on the counter, how about having the front wheel lighten up in... say... SIXTH GEAR suit you? You just need to remember two things, I don't (know how) to wheelie and I weight 230+ in full gear. I kid you not. Fourth gear stand ups with just a mere roll on (no jurking the bars or feathering the clutch) are something I've almost gotten used to... NAAAAAAAAAAAAW! It still scares the shit out of me as I'm coming out of a high speed sweeper. Just like having the rear wheel spinning up at the same time. I might have the last name of McCoy, but my first name is NOT Gary!
quote:
Remember I live at 4500 and sometimes ride at 7000 feet and I take a power hit of 10-25% which effects smaller displacement bikes worse.
Expect a "hit" of about 6% to 8% in RWHP and 9% to 12% in torque (both in stock form). All expect a 90+ pound weight difference in curb weight and a 2.6" difference in wheelbase.
quote:
But there is nothing better than a bike that will head for the moon with nothing more than a gentle turn of the wrist.
The 10R has a weight-to-HP ratio of about 2.6:1 and the 12R is closer th 3.0:1. The 10R is dramatically shorter in wheelbase and lighter in weight. If your looking for a bike that has a front wheel that doubles as as a high altitude wind gauge, you will not be disappointed with the 10R.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
|
fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
|
posted May 03, 2005 05:27 PM
Ted... like I said... ask this question on the 10R side.. You'll get answers from members who have switched...
And BTW Ted.. if ya wanna know the REAL truth about the 10R vs the 12R... right click and save as:
http://www.cpbmiami.com/images/20962_IKEA_LAMP_60.mov
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
|
TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted May 03, 2005 06:26 PM
Red,
I will have to find some time to read though your epic novel. I tried to wade through the RVs, parking lots etc. but I don't have time at the moment. Let me ask this, in what gears would each bike wheelie without the clutch? I.E. The 12 1st and 2nd. The 10 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. I am a rider that likes to slide, Many a time have other riders commented on the fact that I will leave 2 black marks on many corners.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
|
redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
|
posted May 03, 2005 07:01 PM
Again, let me underscore the fact that I do NOT do wheelies... intentionally. The same could be said for breaking the rear loose in a apex... intentionally.
Having a 12R with a shorter 7R swingarm and dyno'ed at a 182 RWHP, needless to say, it was a "wheelie monster". Plus it had no problem leaving massive darkies everytime I twisted the loud handle. I remember on the last long ride (2 day) I took on the 12R before trading it, once I WHACKED the throttle in fourth and remember the front end slowly rising up off the ground. It kinda surprised me (even with -1T front/+1 back) because I never remember it doing that before.
One thing I do remember is that bringing the front end up on the 12R was always a "big production" and I rarly felt totally "in control". In other words, when I should have just rode out the unexpected power wheelie, I'd panic and hammer the front end back to the ground. Even though I was almost never aware of the time I broke the rear loose (only to hear about it at the next gas stop), on the times I was aware, it too was a tad frightening and left me unsure as what to do.
I guess my point is that with the 10R, since I feel far more "connected", I'm also far more aware of when the front end comes up or the back end breaks loose. Unlike the 12R, I don't "panic" when this occurs on the 10R. It is as if the differences in weight between the two allow me to be much more confident and I never get that feeling that I am not in total control of the 10R. Because of this, it is almost like the bike will reward me for not panicing and making and abrupt throttle or brake actions. Basically, I'll just ride it out.
Like I told Ninjaman in a different thread, I am going between 10-20 mph faster on my favorite twisties with the 10R. Sometimes as much as 30 mph. THe only aspect I find "scary" about all of this is that I at no time, feel like I am doing anything that would endanger myself or others around me. For me, if I attempted to duplicate the same speeds, lines through the corners and braking points on the 12R, I'd either be in the hospital or dead. Of course, I would have never have to worry about such since I would have scared myself long before I even came close to what I am doing on the 10R.
Oh, and just a FYI, I have already had that same feeling I got on my last 12R ride on several occasions with the 10R. The only difference was that I was in fifth gear with the 10R, instead of fourth.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
|
redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
|
posted May 03, 2005 07:02 PM
Oh... and I forgot.
Welcome back, stranger.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
|
TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted May 04, 2005 07:39 AM
Thanks Red,
I am just tossing around the idea. and I probably would keep the 12.
Here is my worry, with a bit of background. First of all every street bike I have had has been a relative powerhouse, Starting with my first YL1, then my R5, then my H2, and the Ninja, 900, ZX10, ZX11,and ZX12. Not to mention my various race bikes. Now that being said I also live at high altitude and the bikes take a serious hit in power. Take for example the 12, where you live you are able to manage the occasional 3rd gear wheelie. Here it isn't coming up in second. The only way I get a 3rd gear wheelie is to shift into it while is it is up in the air. So that means I have to shift into first and loft it, then start running through the gears. Now remember a smaller displacement bike will feel the effect of altitude more than a larger one will. So here is what I am trying to determine, will the 10 do a second gear wheelie at this altitude? Which would be awesome, and would probably have me running down to the dealer and just write him a check (well maybe not the local dealer).
I am a two stroke lover, the power band of a two stroke is just a blast for me.I like throttle wheelies, especially roll ons, If makes me smile each time. Also a nice big hairy rear wheel slide is heaven to me. Especially if the thing ends with the front wheel coming off the ground when it hooks up. The 12 will do that at sea level, but the front wheel only gets light if you are not in first at the altitude I ride at, and I find myself jerking on the bars (with my 155 lbs. it doesn't do much) to try to get the thing to loft. I am hoping the 10 would do that. Also I love to let the engine spin at 7000+ and from what you say the 10 lives for that.
Sorry if I keep digging, but I will not be able to test ride the bike, so I have to ask, I would hate to be disappointed.
Thanks
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
|
redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
|
posted May 04, 2005 11:22 AM
It is a shame that no one in your area has a 10R that you could ride.
I did a little rough calculations concerning altitude vs. HP. Figuring one would have a pipe, filters and maybe even a PCIII on their 12R, at sea level, the RWHP would be around 180 (higher with a custom made map). Where you are at, it would be in the area of 150. Putting a slip on and a filter on a 10R would put you somewhere in the mid to high 150s at sea level. That would bearly break 130 where you are at.
The nice thing is that altitude does not change weight diffrences. I would also assume that going one tooth down on the counter would be standard fair where you are out. Though changing counter sprockets was a big leap on the 12R, it is even a bigger leap on the 10R. Many 10R owners have had second thoughts and have switched bacl to the OEM counter and just added one or two teeth onto the rear instead.
The brute power of the 12R is actually needed when one thinks of it's additional weight. Going by just "the numbers", There is about a 18%+ difference in weight, but less than a 15% difference in HP. When you factor in you obscenely light weight, the advantages of the 10R get that much bigger (numerically speaking).
I hardly would be an authority on such, but it would seem to me that the 10R would be everything you have enjoyed in your 12R... and MORE! Just my opinion (which though it's ignorance... ain't worth much).
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
|
TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted May 04, 2005 08:44 PM
Well here is the deal, I called the Carson city dealer (who is supposed to give good deals) and he told me 12,400 out the door. Kiss my ass, I don't want one that bad. That it tax, shipping, papers, etc. Then I went at lunch to the local dealer and he told me under MSRP and no fees, I pay tax. So I went back to work and mulled it over, called the old lady and asked what she thought, and she started chanting "Get it, Get it" so after talking to others I called the dealership and told them to have it ready for me by 5:30.
That being said, it has a whole 17 miles on it and here are my first impressions. First thing is it is really comfortable for me, The seat is a big improvement., I love the seating position and the lean over the tank is pretty good. I was instantly used to riding it (but I was a motorcycle mechanic for many years and I get used to anything quickly) Next the info center is just so so, Having no fuel gage requires you keep an eye on the trip meter and that mean the clock isn't displayed. Please tell me the power gets better than this. The little bit I rode, felt very lethargic to me. Twist the grip and all that seems to happen is it makes more noise. Boy do I hope the power over 7000 improves dramatically or this thing is history. The clutch is clunky and weird stuff comes through the lever. The bike seemed to vibrate when I first pulled away from the parking lot, but amazingly it is already getting smoother.The few turns I took with it didn't lift my skirt. It seems no easier to ride than the 12. But those were just bends in the road at slow speed. The power is bugging me at the moment. I am sure hoping it will impress me once I get some miles on it and can dip into the power band. Those are my first impressions, I realize that I am on the 12 side but I started this thread over here and I will migrate over to the 10 board eventually. Right now I am comparing this thing to the 12 so  if you can't take a joke. Right now if I had to make a choice, the 12 would win hands down. But nothing can be determined on a bike with only 17 miles.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
|
redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
|
posted May 04, 2005 10:03 PM
Okay, I'm guilty of not mentioning a few thing. Not that I was doing so on purpose... I just forgot.
1. You will likely hear a lot more engine/driveline noise than you did with the 12R.
2, Like the 12R, the engine does not truly "loosen up" till you have closer to 2,000 miles on it. Just more so with the 10R.
3, Unlike the 12R, don't expect it to "come alive" by merely adding a exhaust and a filter. Though benefits of a full system is debatable, I find a good slip on and a BMC filter to be worthwhile additions in the near future.
4. So would a 16T counter sprocket. Maybe even before getting a pipe and filter.
5. If you will be expecting the "punch your eyeballs into the back of your helmet" acceleration you had with the 12R, you'll be forever disappointed. The 10R's "punch" at 7K is nothing like the 12R's "kick to the balls" it had in the 5500-6500 range.
6. At one time, I thought the the 12R was "electric motor" smooth. BULLSHIT! The 12R might be a dominating whore, but the 10R is more like a pixy slut (How do you like that description?). In other words, you got what you paid for with the 12R. Latex and leather are standard. The 10R will constantly be surprising you and you will think there is a 30% speedo error. For the 10R, it's more like pigtails, way too short cut offs and a flannel shirt tied just below her... well, you know. You will foolishly believe you could take "her" home to meet the parents. Don't do it! She will constantly be making you do "stupid shit" that you would only do on the 12R after so serious forethought.
7. The 12R was a "MAN'S motorcycle" and pulled with the purposefulness of a freight train. Numbers on the speedo went past like flipping through pages of a book. All the same, you better have some serious balls or she will laugh at you. You play "rough" with the 12R and you better have your "game face" on. The 10R is almost a childish imp. She will forever be begging you to take her out a "play"... and she likes it rough too. A lot rougher. The 10R wants to be tossed about, yet almost has a split personality. Under 7K, it acts like a "grocery getter". You would almost feel the same as it approaches 10 grand... until you look down at the speedo. The numbers will be rolling past faster than a slot machine and you still will think the 10R is crawling at a 140. While the 12R might ask if that is all you got, the 10R will be begging you to do it again... but faster this time.
8. Forget every braking point on every road you have ever ridden the 12R on. Though some (myself included) have complained about the vague lever feel on brakes of the 10R, it's only because we are spoiled little brats. The 12R's power, combined with it's serious weight DEMANDED not "good", but "AMA Superbike quality" brakes. You'd need every bit of them to just scrub off speed. The 10R doesn't have to have such powerful brakes. Not because it's lighter weight makes it unnecessary, but instead, you won't see a reason to slow down due to the fact that you'll be able to carry the corner speed on the 10R. Not to mention the fact that it might take a short while to realize that you have "slipper clutch" and concerns of "catching too low of a gear while approaching the apex will be a thing of the past.
9. Anyone can appreciate a "race like" stiff suspension while riding at a spirited pass on a smooth back highway, but odd are, due to your light weight, you will be yearning for more out of the 10R forks and shock. A lot of it can be "tuned out" via the adjusters, but it will take a little more time to get "just right" on the 10R than it did with the 12R. I guess what it boils down to is that you will eventually (far sooner than later) be demanding more out of the 10R that you ever did out of the 12R.
10. All silliness aside, what I love about the 10R is that it rewards me everytime I do something right (or even close to it). It's nimbleness is far more forgiving and will actually tolerate a mid-line correction. Not that it will not point out your missteps, it just won't slap you in the face over it. I would almost feel like a physics professor while piloting the 12R through a corner. Inertia was both my friend and my enemy. In either case, I was getting to know it well.
11. Spinning up the 12R's rear wheel coming out of the apex was a given. I believe more so due to the weight of both the bike and rider than just raw horsepower. Eventually, the front end would lighten, but only after dumping a 100 miles worth of rubber on the pavement. Not that the 10R won't spin up the rear, because it will. If anything, easier than the 12R. Unlike the 12R, the front end is not just lifting a few inches off the ground as you straighten up after the curve, but the 10R will be changing your perspective of view since you can no longer see the road just ahead of you. All while your are still in mid apex. Your "darkies" will now be much farther back into the curve and will likely have an arc to them instead of looking like it was laid down by a '67 Chevelle without a positrac rearend.
For now, at least until you finish your break in, the 10R will tease you like a cheerleader at the football game while your third chair in band. That okay though. Soon, every ride will be "Prom Night". Just remember to wear proper protection.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
|
TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted May 04, 2005 10:48 PM
Well Red, thanks for the latest input. Wow, I need to get it broken in and dialed in. I noticed a bunch more noise out of it, but that doesn't bother me a bit. I also noticed that the brakes seem to require more effort to stop. You read the articles and they leave you with the impression that they are the most powerful and best brakes ever. So far everything seems to be a toned down 12. God I hope not. Also I hate noise, so a pipe is out of the question. Also I never geared down the 12 because top speed is important to me. Nor do I intend to gear down the 10. I didn't buy the bike to get a sport tourer. I wanted a raw, brutal no holds barred sports bike. Something that will propel me at insane speed up the mountains leading out of Reno. I blipped the throttle where the 12 would do a nice little wheelie and the 10 just made more noise. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know the 10s power band is up higher. But I am hoping I wont have to be going 70 before I can get the front wheel up.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
|
justoyz2
Zone Head
Justoyz Racing
Posts: 858
|
posted May 05, 2005 05:25 AM
I have both as well, but my 12 is now a turbo. I will express my before turbo riding time...
I like both bikes, the 10 is smaller/lighter and closely the same hp. I will ride my 10 when going out for fun, but if i want to ride on a longer cruise, like Tampa to Orlando, I perfer the 12. More room, but heavier. The handle is close, but the positions are different
|
Megabyte
Pro
Posts: 1047
|
posted May 05, 2005 06:39 AM
My 1361 and I went riding with an 04 zx-10, and it suprised me how easily i could pull away or catch him @ all speeds. However, I believe the 10 might be more of a fun bike because of its power to weight ratio etc. But, what is all this talk about wheelies? One of my greatest challenges is to keep the front wheel down, especially when I'm racing. Lofting the front wheel just slows me down 
____________
We First make our habits and then our habits make us.
|
TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted May 05, 2005 01:31 PM
quote:
quote:
After reading Fish's and Swft's reviews, I am not that excited.
Obviously, Fish didn't want to curse you with my "review"...
An hour long read - Redelk's ZX10R review
quote:
Let me drill down a bit. Compared to the 12, how are the roll on wheelies?
Let's see... if you go one tooth down on the counter, how about having the front wheel lighten up in... say... SIXTH GEAR suit you? You just need to remember two things, I don't (know how) to wheelie and I weight 230+ in full gear. I kid you not. Fourth gear stand ups with just a mere roll on (no jurking the bars or feathering the clutch) are something I've almost gotten used to... NAAAAAAAAAAAAW! It still scares the shit out of me as I'm coming out of a high speed sweeper. Just like having the rear wheel spinning up at the same time. I might have the last name of McCoy, but my first name is NOT Gary!
quote:
Remember I live at 4500 and sometimes ride at 7000 feet and I take a power hit of 10-25% which effects smaller displacement bikes worse.
Expect a "hit" of about 6% to 8% in RWHP and 9% to 12% in torque (both in stock form). All expect a 90+ pound weight difference in curb weight and a 2.6" difference in wheelbase.
quote:
But there is nothing better than a bike that will head for the moon with nothing more than a gentle turn of the wrist.
The 10R has a weight-to-HP ratio of about 2.6:1 and the 12R is closer th 3.0:1. The 10R is dramatically shorter in wheelbase and lighter in weight. If your looking for a bike that has a front wheel that doubles as as a high altitude wind gauge, you will not be disappointed with the 10R.
Well I finally read Red's version of Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance. And sorry to say I got absolutely no insight about the 10r other then you can get wet riding it in the rain. Which it is currently doing here in Reno. I will take his word for it and wait till the rain passes.
Desperation is setting in. My first impression of the lackluster performance gave me nightmares. Everything I read says this bike is arguably the king of the street.and will hurtle you from corner to corner and through a corner like no other. I find it difficult to believe that everyone is lying and justifying their having spent the money on one, and since the magazines are drooling all over it and they never drool over a Kawasaki there must be something to it. But it may be they have never ridden a 12 extensively, and discovered what a truly fantastic bike it is especially when it is shod with a set if Michelin Pilot Race tires and a 190 rear. THe suspense is killing me.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
|
TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted May 10, 2005 03:58 PM
As the saga continues for this board, I have been able to ride it and have a whopping 300 miles on the thing. Of the few times I ran up the RPMs (not hammering the thing) it showed me a side that I can't wait to explore. It looks like the weather is going to clear at least for saturday and should be able to get a couple hundred more miles on it. I am so curious as to how it compares to the 12 at least power wise.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
|
|
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC