ZX10 Guy
Novice Class
Posts: 72
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posted November 20, 2004 05:31 AM
It's been a while since I had to think about materials properties; currently I'm a computer geek. The only way I recall to produce the point defects you're talking about is to work harden the material. Other things that improve strength in materials is to dope the material with other materials like nickel and carbon. These "impurities" sit in between the main material's individual grains. The impurites aid in stopping any crack propagation that may occur.
I'm surprised none of you all have looked at the meta-lax process. The process is a proven technology backed various independent tests including some scrutiny by DOE.
Until I see some actual test data where a material was subjected to this cryofreezing process, I'll have to also lean towards calling it BS. Annecdotal evidence doesn't count. I want to see some comparison testing of a part to see if there is really any improvement; tensile, hardness, and 3 point bending tests.
  
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buzard
Novice Class
Posts: 39
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posted November 20, 2004 12:39 PM
it works. xtreme thermol cycling owner and sponsor of two wheel speed is a god friend and racing buddie of mine. many busch series engine builders, race boat engine builder and a few pro stock bike teams use the process. kraft food uses the process to reduce blade failure in their production plant around here. a huge increase was seen in chains and valve spring life. if you have cast pistons it works better then the process does on the billet items. it is a slow freeze and heat process and is all computor controlled. only problem that has occurred in the process was with a harley cylinder that was cracked. it made the crack more visible. rotors, springs, chains, cranks, blocks, trans, etc... if you want to call him and ask about the process feel free. his name is dan 920-540-0305. im out. mike
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Marcos Peguero
Zone Head
Posts: 568
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posted November 21, 2004 10:19 AM
This is old news for the industry, where time and money have lots of minds finding a way to be reduced.
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ggpark
Parking Attendant
Posts: 2
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posted August 05, 2009 02:11 AM
yea!!
quote:
yeh same goes for stress relieving piping welds on a power plant. VERY picky process, and consequences are nasty for failure to do it properly. (radioactive contamination etc etc)
having a bike engine grenade at 13000rpm leaned over on track is LAST place i want to be "testing" something like thatPoint of Sale......
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kawasakijockey
Pro
Posts: 1876
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posted August 05, 2009 04:27 AM
The mother of all gravedigs!
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Get on the shortbus boys 'cause its time to get schooled.
2007 ZX-14
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9.03 @ 149mph
8.95 @153 small shot n2o
8.68 @160mph 5lbs boost
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NOX
Needs a job
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Posts: 3745
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posted August 05, 2009 06:11 AM
holy thread resurrection Batman!
For what its worth, i know some stock eliminator guys that do it down here at deep freeze of arkansas.....
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deathpulse
Pro
Posts: 1688
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posted August 05, 2009 04:47 PM
I still say BS  - lets send this in to the EXPERTS....
MYTHBUSTERS!!!!!
Someone want to submit it?
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted August 05, 2009 07:01 PM
I have an idea.... the real experts: 
Tim, Doug, Jim?
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted August 06, 2009 04:35 PM
When I was in graduate school nearly 20 years ago, I asked my materials science professors about this process. These are the guys who study metals at the molecular level and teach classes on fracture dynamics, elasticity, crack propagation, creep, etc. They had never heard of the process, and couldn't understand how it worked.
(This is from 20 years ago, so some of the details may have become corrupted over time.) Metal heat treatment happens at high temperatures, where molecules of alloying elements move around relative to the molecules of the base metal or where grain boundaries are reconfigured or where certain metallic and non-metallic phases go into or out of solution. These events all depend on molecular diffusion to occur. Cooling the material below its diffusion temperature then locks the molecules in place and the metal freezes. In other words, once the metal is frozen, no more diffusion is occurring. Cold working (or work hardening or strain hardening) works by deforming the material and thus the grain in the metal, locking the dislocations up against each other to prevent additional relative motion, increasing yield strength and reducing ductility.
Cryo treatments do not use molecular diffusion and do not generate sufficient strain to work-harden the material. So how does it work, or does it work? I dunno - I've never seen any hard evidence that it actually improves a material's mechanical properties. All I know is a lot of people use it, and a lot of people used to use Slick 50.
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted August 06, 2009 04:37 PM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 7 Aug 2009 00:38
Also, if you use a special green marker on CD's, they are supposed to sound better. The more you spend for the marker, the better it sounds.
Better soundstage and clarity. 
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DR JOE
Expert Class
Posts: 352
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posted August 06, 2009 06:26 PM
I did a set of my friends Busa clutch steels and they worked and lasted a very long time (over 2 years) on a slick and bared busa with a rider weight of 240/260.
Doc.
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NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted August 07, 2009 04:15 PM
Thats interesting......, but I could go on a dissertation on clutch steels...., so we wont go there........
I do know this, an engine builder here...., who just sent a motor to alanabi racing......., just did my daughters piston......., teflon coating, they say its worth like 8 hp per hole in a v8........
I am scared her car is gonna run in the 6s...., it was doing 7.3s with a wore out cam, and wore out rings.......
and, it was lean.......
So........
She is very anxious to help build it next weekend...........
Link to a pic of her car......., scroll down
http://www.shotimeproductions.com/Centervillewebphotos/Centervillephotos.html
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dubious
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Posts: 8442
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posted August 08, 2009 04:31 PM
I don't think cernaic or dry flm makes any ,more HP, it jusy provides a bit extra insurance before the piston holes, or the skirt scores...
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NOX
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Posts: 3745
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posted August 09, 2009 07:25 AM
Well, I quoted wrong..., my father in law was here yesterday, we were assembling part of Little nox's motor......(teflon coated wiseco piston), they only coat below the rings....., but, he said in talking to Koontz, (who just sent a motor to al anabi), they are getting about 25 hp on a v8. 2 or 3 hp on Maddies motor, I will take that.....
I spoke with him about the cryo treating........, whole motors are possible.......
He runs a a/sa stock eliminator car......, and it aint no slouch, it has outrun peter biondo heads up enough that peter called tech on him.......
Stock eliminator in NHRA is forced to used stock rocker arms......, they dont like 7500 rpm......, in a big block. he was also having crank issues.......
cryo treated both......
hasnt hurt any since......., and that was years ago.........
it makes the metal stronger.........
and, intheory, makes the parts last longer.........
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted August 09, 2009 08:45 AM
And the difference in Rockwell hardness is...? Like ZX10 Guy said, anecdotal evidence doesn't count. We want to see some lab results. Remember, people used to run their Slick 50 treated motors for hundreds of miles without oil or coolant. And Shamwows hold 20x their weight in fluid, too.
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted August 09, 2009 08:56 AM
Edited By: tcchin on 9 Aug 2009 16:57
.
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NOX
Needs a job
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posted August 09, 2009 07:21 PM
Well, its like this......
The stuff is being done in super stock, etc, in NHRA, and in stock eliminator......
I have seen pushrods go through these rockers in the past....., and now, it dont happen......
I do know what you are saying......
I would like to see some hard testing too......
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dubious
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Posts: 8442
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posted August 09, 2009 07:54 PM
apparently the grain is aligned and the molecules become meor edense when they are frozen to absolutre zero.
Thats what I read about 15 years ago when it was all new to the public.
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natural selection.....
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NOX
Needs a job
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Posts: 3745
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posted August 09, 2009 08:19 PM
Thats the theory I was told, just did not know how to put it in type........
____________
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Ricksgsxr
Zone Head
Posts: 511
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posted August 24, 2009 01:57 PM
Inquire with these folks
http://www.evansperformance.com/
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted August 24, 2009 05:10 PM
Those guys can't even spell "residual" or "strength" - it's unlikely they understand metallurgy at the molecular level. They claim that carbide diffusion is the strengthening mechanism of cryogenic treatment, but diffusion can only take place on other than a geologic schedule if the material is heated. Let's see some electron micrograph images!
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Ricksgsxr
Zone Head
Posts: 511
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posted August 25, 2009 09:20 AM
Edited By: Ricksgsxr on 25 Aug 2009 17:22
LOL!
Going a bit off topic but the logic is somewhat teh same.
I ran into a similar issue when looking at the many types of friction, oil shedding and performance coatings availble and what was on at the time (DLC) a future offering.
The idea of using never orignated from motorcycle specific vendors or reading on motorcycle website simply put none existed.
But also i'm a modaholic and my inquiring mind and resulting shrinking savings account has been taken advatage of with the hard to beleive clams, however not all has been bad...
The idea was from research of other forms of racing such as Marine, Karting, Formula 1 , NASCAR , yep good old NASCRAP you would be hard pressed to find any other form of racing that has tried more stuff and R/D out there. Still makes for bad T.V LOL!
No hard data exists that would cover every possible scenerio be it dyno, wear, oil and water temps before and after specific to a modern day high reving inline 4 cyc motorcycle engine.
Best one may find is some tests on 350 chevy or 302 ford and even than is limited mainly to the Head and CC being able to use lower octane gas safely with high compression and or better explosion by retaining heat which in theory a bigger bang equals more hp.
I did REM+Cyro my tranny and have a host of other coating types on many parts from pistons skirts, underside, tops, rods, oil pan, valve springs, cc, ex ports, crank shaft and main bearings and did not do before and after tests that would be price prohibitive
Not all are performance (HP) enchancing nor was that the intended goal.
This is just my opinion and my money I spent wondering. wish vendos took "Gregrickery Iwonderdollars"
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Y2KZX12R
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posted August 25, 2009 12:33 PM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 25 Aug 2009 20:37
quote:
And Shamwows hold 20x their weight in fluid, too.
Vince says the slapchop is 10x faster than a knife... !!!
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted August 25, 2009 05:14 PM
Believe me, there are industries that generate hard data covering every possible test scenario for materials and processes. Somehow, both cryo treatment and the Shamwow have slipped through the cracks in their testing schedules.
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted August 26, 2009 04:15 AM
HIPing (Hot Isostatic Pressing) is becoming very popular for cast parts to eliminate any defects in castings.
BUT, its done HOT. Its more of a crushing process. It does help eliminate any possible porosity in cylinder heads.
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