redelk
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posted November 11, 2004 01:31 PM
Well, it seems that my first link now just shows "Forbidden". Did anyone copy that video before the site went down or know where there is another working link to that video? E-mail me at adcraft@sbcglobal.net.
I'm a lttle miffed that my picture link is down too, but I assure you, I do not believe that it's the government out to shut these sites down. If that's what they wanted to do, it would have been done long ago.
Here's another interesting link:
http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/pentagon.htm
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
   
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted November 11, 2004 03:09 PM
Actually. I friend of mine was slightly injured working on the roof when the Plane hit. (Do not laugh, but his arm was abraided by a passing Sani John when the explosion blew it past him. He stated that the plane sort of came in low and dove too steeply and "Bounced" off of the Heli-pad "UP" into the building. It was a case where you cannot believe what you are looking at and want to run, but you cannot because you are not sure which way to run and want to see what happens "ALL AT THE SAME TIME"
On the other thread, Hard to believe that no one came to bomb my house and even my conservative Buddy Otis offered me help on my Race Program! (Only in America) Did you know that the guy that wrote the Chronicles about the Muslim faith that had a price on his head "WAS" Found and killed? I hope it never gets that bad here!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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DaveInDaytona
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posted November 11, 2004 06:50 PM
Sherm, get it while you can.
http://www.nexusitalia.com.nyud.net:8090/pentagon121.swf
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DaytonaSportbikes Forum
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redelk
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posted November 11, 2004 09:57 PM
Thanks Dave. Now if I can just figure how to save a shockwave flash file.
Here's another link that details the actual building's pillars and has numerous pic prior to the colapse.
http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911/Eastman/m18h05.html
I must say again, I could give a rat's ass less about the political aspect of it and the linked sites are bathed in them. BFD. I would not be surprised if these pics were "doctored" no more than I would not be surprised if the pics/video of government's version was doctored. Still, the "small entry hole" is a fact not denied by either side,
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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slug
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Out in search of my mind...
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posted November 12, 2004 04:06 AM
redelk: right click his link and save as ;P
then associate the file with internet exploder
i've saved hundreds of flash files over the years, somethings are just too funny (white trash Christmas anyone?? hehehe )
 
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redelk
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posted November 12, 2004 06:06 AM
slug, I mean saving it as a wmv or mpeg to where it can be viewed offline, transfered, etc. Since the bandwidth if most of the sites that host it is often small, the sites come and go all the time. Often, when they go, the don't come back. Saving the link itself is not the direction I'm wanting to go. Am I missing something in your instructions?
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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slug
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Out in search of my mind...
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posted November 12, 2004 09:23 PM
oops i missed it entirely
http://www.adshareit.com/
trythat, i am testing itnow as we speak
the more i look at that video, the less convinced i am that it is true.
the "perfectly circular" hole in the wall couldn't possibly be at the pentagon.
note the grafiti around it. i'd love to be able to tell what AP file photo that came from, what city.
i may be wrong, but i *HIGHLY* doubt the existance of grafiti inside that building. or, for that matter, a "no parking" sign it is OBVIOUS the latter photos were added from some other sources, the first frame shows no grafiti and no "no parking" sign. subsequent frames show both grafiti AND no parking sign.
so that makes THAT mucho fishy.
also looking at the "inside" (or between rings) view, it looks like a tenement row house in some 3rd world inner city, like beirut (remember the old beirut telecom joke photos?)
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the quotes about cordite bothered me.... so i did some research....
quote:
5. Cordite
Cordite is manufactured by mixing dried Guncotton (see below) with
Nitroglycerine (see below), by hand, in a rubber lined canvas bag. The paste is then
mechanically kneaded for several hours in acetone. Mineral jelly is added and the
kneading repeated. This dough is then formed into the types of products required.
Cordite is used, primarily, in rifle cartridges, artillery shells and solid rocket
motors. When burnt they produce large quantities of Carbon Dioxide, Carbon
Monoxide, Steam, Nitrogen and Oxides of Nitrogen. Some of these chemicals
recombine to form Nitrogen Peroxide. Small quantities of Vaseline and
Diphenylamine are added to stabilise Cordite. Further moderants such as Camphor,
Castor Oil, or wax are sometimes added to reduce the speed of the explosion.
cordite burns it doesn't explode... and it (as best as i can find) is of soviet manufacture...
quote:
COMPOSITION OF SOLID ROCKET PROPELLANTS
Propellant Type Composition
Balistite (USA) Double Base Homogeneous Nitrocellulose (51.5%), Nitroglycerine (43.0%), Plasticiser (1.0%), Other (4.5%)
Cordite (Soviet) Double Base Homogeneous Nitrocellulose (56.5%), Nitroglycerine (28.0%), Plasticiser (4.5%), Other (11.0%)
SRB Propellant Composite Aluminum Powder (16%) as fuel, Ammonium Perchlorate (69.93%) as oxidizer, Iron Oxidizer Powder (0.07%) as catalyst, Polybutadiene Acrylic Acid Acrylonitrile (12.04%) as rubber-based binder, Epoxy Curing Agent (1.96%)
quote:
There are two families of solids propellants: homogeneous and composite. Both types are dense, stable at ordinary temperatures, and easily storable.
Homogeneous propellants are either simple base or double base. A simple base propellant consists of a single compound, usually nitrocellulose, which has both an oxidation capacity and a reduction capacity. Double base propellants usually consist of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine, to which a plasticiser is added. Homogeneous propellants do not usually have specific impulses greater than about 210 seconds under normal conditions. Their main asset is that they do not produce traceable fumes and are, therefore, commonly used in tactical weapons.
undamaged cable spools: the momentum of the plane carried it and its debris INTO the building, not back out to where those spools were at. and i wouldn't call them undamaged...they are definately scorched ;P
as far as all the eyewitness accounts, there are plenty of eyewitnesses that saw the plane too.
butin situation like this where the witnesses had a few seconds to discern something was amiss, to look, to focus, and to actually SEE what it was, all on an object doing 350 mph... is patently useless
the video clips are so grainy (as mentioned before) as to be useless as well.
between that and the falsified pictures, (if there was a REAL coverup, whywould they falsify pictures to make their point?) i have to give this particular video a big fat *LIE* rating
(4 pinnochios out of 5)
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Ra12r
Zone Head
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posted November 13, 2004 07:58 PM
Slug, abc television was broadcasting, and I watched the broadcast prior to the collapse. Did the plane hit the side of the building and not knock the ENTIRE wall down. F=MA There would be more than enough force to break out the windows prior to the collapse. Windows are still intact and covered with the foam from the fire fighters.
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All must bow to the "Ra Supremecy"...
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
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posted November 14, 2004 01:35 AM
ra12r, if u believe it's that simple, then u'v got alot of self-educating to do. not saying u'r right or wrong, but those kind of "it's obvious" assumptions are VERY dangerous cause they very often turn out to be wrong. not flamin ya, just a lesson i'v learned over the years from first & second hand experience.
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slug
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posted November 14, 2004 04:24 AM
the problem with using the glass (especially the pentagon external glass) as a litmus test is that it is built to withstand direct impact of projectiles and concussion (shock) from explosions outside.
it is not only not suprising that they were not destroyed until the building collapsed, but EXPECTED that they would remain essentially intact when there was no direct impact on them.
the other aspect is that those windows are most likely safety glass, just like car windshield. just a hell of a lot thicker. with the ultra-high resolution pictures we have we can instantly see there are no cracks or damage marks on them.......a mangled windshield will hold firefighting foam out of the car too....but the same thing that keeps a windshield from shattering does same for MOST other applications of safety glass as well....
the same goes for the WTC outer skin, it too was not destroyed in a plane-shaped hole.....and it was glass as well.....granted the holes WERE a bit larger, but then again the WTC was not fortified like the pentagon.
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slug
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posted November 14, 2004 11:01 AM
another thing that is interesting
total loss house fire. ammo and propane tanks (on front porch) letting go, boom boom etc etc
utterly destroyed everything....
except a little antique ceramic frog.....go figure..
the strangest things survive unimaginable circumstances...
this was 5 feet from the frog:
the surface comments made by the producers of the conspiracy theory film sound good until you actually start to dig into the factual backing, and the actual EVENTS that took place.
then viewing their falsified "proof" just seals the fate of hte conspiracy. why fake it if you're telling the truth?
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Ra12r
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posted November 14, 2004 07:55 PM
{quote}it is not only not suprising that they were not destroyed until the building collapsed, but EXPECTED that they would remain essentially intact when there was no direct impact on them.{quote}
I agree, but that is also my observation, NO direct direct impact. Plus watching the Governments own video releases,(which are only 5 frames) has ONE breif explosion and then a fire that is shortly controlled. Minimally 8500lbs of jet fuel is expected to burn for more than several hours. It is also hotter than the damage that results. The roof and windows remains intact after the "airline 757 direct impact" and the fuel does not even burn the grass.
Thanks Redelk for causing me to look at this, I believe that the implications will cause the many to second guess what "still shot" evidence demonstrates. It is just easier to flow with the prescribed explanation. Also, if there is ANY EVIDENCE, a conspiracy becomes a theory. Any and all theories contain the possibilty of being a valid explanation for the idea or perspective. I believe that viewing MANY sources and "government authorized" photos presents an ample amount of evidence to support a theory regarding an alternative object hitting the pentagon in a NON-Accidental fashion. Any attack on the pentagon was and is SURELY an act of terrorism by ALL the parties involved whether directly or indirectly through coverup.
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All must bow to the "Ra Supremecy"...
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redelk
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posted November 15, 2004 06:01 AM
Ra - I agree that it all causes one questioning the validity of the explanation given to us. The fact remains and as my friends have implied... we will be "given" no more information than what we already have. Any additional questions we may have will forever go unanswered. Be it the "grassy knoll", MLK, flight 800 or the Pentagon. If there is some "information" missing. it will forever remain missing. hat being the case, it will always remain as simple speculation.
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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slug
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posted November 15, 2004 03:34 PM
unfortunately you also have to determine the possible gains and motivations to lie about the attack on the pentagon
what possible gain could there be to take the risks of being discovered and:
1. destroy an airliner for no good reason other than some nebulous possibility of political gain? especially since the WTC attacks themselves would have no less of an impact if the pentagon wasn't attacked. when people think of 9/11 they don't think pentagon. they think WTC. pentagon is a non-starter when it comes to that issue. meaningless. Besides, wouldn't it be even MORE politically useful to PROVE that the terrorists had access to missiles?
the consequences of actually cold-heartedly destroying a full airliner AND BEING CAUGHT are enormous.
the other problem? they would have to have created this plan, destroyed the airliner, and target and fire a missile within the short period of time between the WTC and the pentagon attacks.....
we are talking MAJOR geniuses and MASSIVE efforts to try to 'cash in on' the terrorist attacks.
2. What gain could possibly be worth killing that many people? ESPECIALLY with the risk of one of the hundreds of people who would have to be in on the deal spilling the beans?
the whole "someone destroyed hte plane and launched missile in to pentagon" theory lacks a MAJOR part: motive.
again, what possible gains?
i REALLY don't understand the whole theory aspect, the pictures and videos that are out there are NOT clear or detailed enough to base ANYTHING on.
anyone who has used mpeg compression at all knows that the number of frames that the plane appeared on the video (a few) got 'compressed' and cannot be counted on for a good video.
ESPECIALLY in the crappy video that was posted in that 'documentary'
i ask again though, why should i believe ANYTHING in that video when they have obviously falsified significant parts of it?
as far as why videos haven't been released, anyone who has dealt with military (or government) knows how painfully slow their processes are for collating and disseminating data.
especially when they are in an investigation...
the other aspect is this: why publish video showing the weaknesses of the building? what could possibly be gained by letting information like that out?
nothing positive that's for sure.
i'm just glad that, though i carry a healthy level of cynicism for federal government, i do NOT carry the level of loathing and hatred for the officials that would have had to carry those atrocities out that some people do.
to believe that a significant number of federal employees would be fine with destroying an airliner and all passengers on board FOR PERSONAL POLITICAL GAIN is a level of sickness that i hope not many people have.
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redelk
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posted November 15, 2004 03:52 PM
quote:
anyone who has used mpeg compression at all knows that the number of frames that the plane appeared on the video (a few) got 'compressed' and cannot be counted on for a good video.
ESPECIALLY in the crappy video that was posted in that 'documentary'
i ask again though, why should i believe ANYTHING in that video when they have obviously falsified significant parts of it?
I'm assuming your are talking about the 5 frames showing the impact. If so, I could not agree with you more on it's lack of quality and I'd even say somewhat suspiciousness of it's authenticity.
As numerous websites have questioned even the simplest aspects, such as the shadows and time stamp (over 24hrs off).
Sadly, that is the only "official" tape that the government has released to the public. Just those five frames and nothing more. I can appreciate the government's snail like pace on releasing information. Still, it the time it took them to put together those five frames, they could have just as easily released the video from the Sheraton's rooftop camera. Hell, recording a video wit a damn cell phone would have been just as good, quality wise, as the five frames released by the Pentagon.
Again, I'm trying to avoid the "political aspects" and try to guess the "whys". All I am concerned with is the "whats".
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted November 15, 2004 05:13 PM
Here are some interesting 3D renderings based on the released data:
http://www.mikejwilson.com/911/911_pentagon_animation1.zip
and
http://www.mikejwilson.com/911/911_pentagon_animation_lamps1.zip
I just stumbled across these files while looking for Solidworks technical info.
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slug
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Out in search of my mind...
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posted November 15, 2004 07:02 PM
well the problem is that we are getting to the point where the whys are AS important as the whats.
but otherwise, i still think that half the garbage that they have in that little video is BS, many parts i know full well are.
if it was true, why would hte falsify their evidence?
as was pointed out before, the WTC holes were also initially smaller than the 'expected' impact size. there were plenty of unbroken windows and such on THAT building too, and they weren't built to withstand significant penetration attempts like the pentagon was.
but i DO agree that the WTC holes showed an area where the wings and tail inpacted, where the pentagon is a much less defined hole.
however i attribute that to the huge difference in the construction of the 2 buildings. MUCH more force on the wings and such imposed by the building, and much less deformation OF the building due to its strength.
as far as the 'missing' fuel and the "small" size of the fireball an d the unburnt (in the crappy pictures we ahve anyway) grass, it (fuel in wings) had just as much momentum as the plane, it too would have gone into the place where the wings went....not much backwards damage since everything was all moving forward at same pace....rapidly....
the suspiciousness of the authenticity is not of the plane part, but of the holes shown later "proving" that something round came through the wall. the problem is again the faked pictures with the grafiti and different firefighting uniforms shown. as well as the 'no parking' street sign in the so-called proof photos....
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