VincentHill
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posted October 20, 2004 09:22 PM
 Edited By: VincentHill on 23 Oct 2004 05:21
Bike is Not Starting? "RESOLVED"!
This is Beyond me! The end of the story is, The fuel Pump had 43 Pounds of Max Pressure and puts out 4 Oz of fuel in 3 seconds! I have a Bright Spark at the Plugs, The Compression PSI is about 170 per cylinder and the Bike "WAS" running fine! There is no fuel going through the Injectors. I even changed the Throttle Bodies and still nothing! I checked the Crank Sensor for Cranking Voltage and it read low, so I replaced it. I am getting "NO Codes (The FI Light comes on when I turn the Key on and after the fuel Pump cycles it goes Out. I turn the engine over and the Oil Pressure light goes out but the bike does not start?
After I put it back together and started it up I took it out for about 50 miles and the only think I noticed was a slight hestation at 5,000 rpms. I came back and changed to regular Motorcycle Oil (Still Non SYN) and the Next day it ran badly above 5K. and a little badly everywhere. I checked the map in the PC and the computer could not read it so I reprogramed it and the Bike ran fine. I took it over for a little DYNO Tuning and when it got to 7 K it Crapped out. We disconnected the PC and the Bike started back up. We then checked a few things and it never started again.
I checked the Wiring Sunday and saw nothing wrong. Tonight when I replaced the Crank Sensor it did not start. That is when I changed the FI (from a 2001 Model) and Nothing different. (Turn on the Key and the Pump Cycles then turn it over and it does not start). From Experience I know that a Bad "Vehicle Down Sensor" Will allow the Bike to turn over, but not start. So I took the Battery tray out and you could feel it click and the Bike turned over. I pulled a "Stick COil" and put a plug in it and grounded it and it fired all of the time.
I tried to see if the Computer was storing any codes but it will not flash when Grounded and you turn on the Key (No matter how long you wait.) The Only think I cannot Check is the "MAIN ECU" itselfI have 10 days to go and this bike will be going to Maxton even if it just sits there and goes no where!
Anyone got any ideas?
I am thinking of taking it to a dealer (One with a Tester for the ECU) to see if it will tell them anything once I get everything back together.
If the Injectors sprayed Fuel, The Bike would be running because everything else works! I need Help!! See Last Post!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
  
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beansbaxter
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posted October 20, 2004 11:10 PM
When my ECU wasnt giving me back any error codes, it ended up being the ECU itself.
Sorry I'm not much help...
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VincentHill
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posted October 21, 2004 03:39 AM
Beans, I am at this same Place! The "Only" other thing I plan to do is "Check" each wire on the Bike! First between the ECU Connection and the FI! This could be a degraded / broken wire!
SOmetimes when It seems that everything is working (sensor wise) and something still does not work, it can be a "Wire"! So I am going to check this first. An ECU Is not a "Cheap" Item to be swaping and find that it is not it!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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rac4it
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Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted October 21, 2004 03:50 AM
fuse, plugs, coils, ecu, pc3?
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tuusinii
Pro
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posted October 21, 2004 04:06 AM
Have You checked it has signal on the injectors? Propably not if is not giving fuel. Then check if the appropriate pins at the ECU give signal to the injectors. Do You have access to oscilloscope? But if some sensor or injector would be off it should light the FI light. And one simple thing, You are sure that the fuel lines are correct?
And one thing still, measure the voltage when You're cranking it. Maybe the battery voltage is too low and Ecu can't work correctly? Just a thought...
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catman12
Expert Class
Posts: 169
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posted October 21, 2004 04:09 AM
Vincent, there are a 10Volts signal that goes from the ignition switch to the ECU check for 10 Volts there(yes 10Volts not 12V there are is a resistor in the ignition switch). Maybe the resistor in the keylock has gone bad. I had the same problem, the wire had broke just where the wiring from the ignitionswitch passes the fitting for the radiator (clamp)
I´m at work now I can give you the wire number tonight swedish time.
Hope this helps // Mikael
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6.23@126.7mph 1/8mi , 9.44@150.99mph 1/4mi 60" Arm, 1361cc, manual shifting.
http://www.kiruna.se/~mgrape
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VincentHill
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posted October 21, 2004 06:48 AM
All Fuses Good (Including the "2" Behind the Battery. The PC3 has been bypassed and the Stick Coils fire the Plugs (Ones in the Bike and ones I stick int them. The Only thing I do not know (About this problem) is the ECU and Wiring. The idea about the Switch is a "Great One" and I plan to check it out also when I check my wiring tonight! The thing about this is the Performance slowly went away and finally no start. I also Watched through the Throttle Bodies to make sure I saw no fuel and the plugs are DRY! (You also can hear the Injectors when Working and I cannot hear them!) Thanks everyone
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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Zaphod Breeblebox
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posted October 21, 2004 07:41 AM
quote:
Maybe the battery voltage is too low and Ecu can't work correctly? Just a thought...
I'd check it with a fresh battery, just to eliminate the possibility.
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Zaphod
Y2K ZX-12R
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VincentHill
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posted October 21, 2004 07:48 AM
How about a 20 AMP Battery with 13.1 Volts. (But I will also check this "Under a Load" which tells ALL!) I am going home for Lunch and do a "Few" things! and get back to everyone. Thanks
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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dougmeyer
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posted October 21, 2004 10:02 AM
Fuel pump
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VincentHill
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posted October 21, 2004 10:58 AM
Edited By: VincentHill on 21 Oct 2004 12:10
quote:
Fuel pump
Even though it will put out between 41 & 43 Pounds of Pressure (I have a Fuel Pressure Gauge that I used on the Porsche 911 that I put in line to test this) and flow 4 Oz's in the 3 seconds (The Min is 2.9 OZ)? You still think that?
I would "LOVE" it to be the Pump, but please tell me why you think so? (Thanks Doug!)
Catman, you were thge first, but now 2 people have said the same thing and I have "12.5" or more volts on every Wire out of the Ignition Switch! One person said it was the "GRAY" wire that should read lower (about 9 + volts)
Doug, would this stop the bike also? (AntiTheft device in the switch?)
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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catman12
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posted October 21, 2004 12:30 PM
Edited By: catman12 on 21 Oct 2004 13:35
Mr Hill the 8-10 Volts I talked about is on pin 39 on ECU, GY wire. If you do not have that voltage then you do not have voltage to the fuelpump when you hit the starter. But you have voltage (3 sec.) when you switch on the ignition switch to the fuelpump.
(This is on european model, I think you have the same pin numbers.)
Just an idea...
Thanks // Mikael
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6.23@126.7mph 1/8mi , 9.44@150.99mph 1/4mi 60" Arm, 1361cc, manual shifting.
http://www.kiruna.se/~mgrape
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VincentHill
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posted October 21, 2004 01:52 PM
quote:
Mr Hill the 8-10 Volts I talked about is on pin 39 on ECU, GY wire. If you do not have that voltage then you do not have voltage to the fuelpump when you hit the starter. But you have voltage (3 sec.) when you switch on the ignition switch to the fuelpump.
(This is on european model, I think you have the same pin numbers.)
Just an idea...
Thanks // Mikael
Mikael, I owe you on this one because another person said the exact same thing (Used different words). I have ordered an Ignition switch ($70 is a lot cheaper than $500 for an ECU) or $350 for a Fuel Pump). I will check this tonight and see if I can interfer with a resistor to make it start!
Thank you!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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catman12
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posted October 21, 2004 02:11 PM
Vincent just put 8-10VDC on pin 39, if your fuelpump runs then, there is where you have the problem. I do not remember what the ohms in the ignition switch should be (100 ohms?). Why they have 8-10 volts there, is because this is a lowcost anti-theft system from kawasaki...
// Mikael
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6.23@126.7mph 1/8mi , 9.44@150.99mph 1/4mi 60" Arm, 1361cc, manual shifting.
http://www.kiruna.se/~mgrape
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dougmeyer
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posted October 21, 2004 08:49 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 21 Oct 2004 21:50
I suggested the pump because there is no fire. The pump may be bad or the supply voltage is non existant. Could very well be the switch, or the relay.
I'm just suggesting that you look in that area. I've seen both fail. You can jump the fuel pump relay and make the pump run without the engine running. I forget which wires right now but I'll get back to you if nobody else remembers. I discussed this a few years ago when people wanted to know how to pump out their tanks. ECU failures are extremely rare. I've actually never heard of a documented case, only hearsay.
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VincentHill
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posted October 21, 2004 09:45 PM
Update! Mikael, Even though the "Connector" for the Ignition Switch white wire and everything else all flowed 12+ volts, the #39 Pin had 9.6 Volts. Where ever they do it, they do have a resister in the circuit somewhere! I have now ruled that mostly out
To the Fuel Pump. That is what I wanted to know. I also have "Heard" that the ECU is fairly "Bullet Proof" and Hope I can find someone in the DC Area that has a 2000 ZX12R to plug mine in to rule it out.
Doug, you are right that it is "Something" to do with the Fuel Pump because after going over everything I sprayed a little starting fluid onto the AIr Box and the Bike started and ran until the spray ran out. I also changed the Pressure Sensors (I had and extra one) because they can cause and Intermmittent problem also. This also did not cure it.
When I turn on the Key, the pump runs the 3 seconds, turns off and I try to start the bike. It stumbles along and I can hear the Pump running, but the engine never seems to get enough fuel to continue. Just for "Grins", I added +45 fuel in the start Area on the Borrowed PC3 (no "r") and that did not do anything. WIth a good Map I also added and subtracted on the Buttons and no change. I watched the Injector with WOT and saw about "1" Squirt of fuel and that was that.
Tomorrow, I will check into bypassing the relay (Carefully) and see if the Bike will run with the Pump running full time. That should tell me something? It looks like the "White /Yellow" wire has the Power but which one to connect it to? Wouldn't it be noce if it was "JUST" a relay that the Ecu did not pick up? I will test the 2 relays (ECU and Fuel Pump Relay before I go to work tomorrow. It is now late and I am Old! 
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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catman12
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posted October 21, 2004 10:12 PM
Vincent do you want me to send an ECU here from Sweden that you can test?
The ECU and fuelpump relay are the same, (on european models).
Vincent I did see that you testad a 2001 ECU, you know that you also need to change location on the cam sensor pickup on the exhaust-camshaft? They are installed on different degrees between 2000 and 2001 models.
Have you tested the cam sensor?
// Mikael
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6.23@126.7mph 1/8mi , 9.44@150.99mph 1/4mi 60" Arm, 1361cc, manual shifting.
http://www.kiruna.se/~mgrape
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Five 0
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Posts: 215
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posted October 22, 2004 04:21 AM
Edited By: Five 0 on 22 Oct 2004 05:22
Relays
I have tons of the relays laying around you can have. We cut them all out on our cars. Have you had the fuel lines off for anything?? We have had problems in the past getting the fuel to pick up after a disconnect. I always pull the line off and turn the pump on then connect after all the air is out of the line.
5-0
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VincentHill
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posted October 22, 2004 05:17 AM
Mikael, Mad Mike is a lot closer if I need an ECU> The 2001 plugs do not fit was the main problem.
5-0, I am going to check a few things right now and bypass the relay for the Pump to see if that helps and take the tank off and make sure the screen in clean.
I have not tested the "Cam" Sensor "YET" but will.
The thing about this is the performance just slowed to this. It is not like it was not working perfectly to begin with. That is why I am going to look at the Pump filter screen!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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VincentHill
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posted October 22, 2004 06:30 AM
I checked the Fuel Pump relay and found that the "White Yellow wire had volts and when switched on, for 3 seconds, the "White Red" wire has current, I put in a "U" Jumper between these 2 wires and the Pump ran all of the time. The Bike still did not run after the starting fluid ran out.
I am back to the ECU or the Fuel Pump as DOug Suggested. I did not have time to remove the Pump and check the screen or anything else, but if it is the Pump, it was one tricky SOB! It runs, Has 43 Pounds of Pressure and puts out 33% more fuel in the 3 seconds than needed! Yes, the Pressure gauge was hooked in line! (As opposed to dead ended)
Mike, You have mail for your ECU and anyone have an "Extra" Pump"
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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rac4it
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Bergie
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posted October 22, 2004 06:48 AM
I find it hard to believe there are no zx12s at no-so-champion motorsports in herndon that they wont let you ECU swap just to test yours...call that douchbag and tell him after dicking me over thats the least they can do for you
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VincentHill
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posted October 22, 2004 10:09 AM
 You talking to ME? I do not think they have a 2000, but I will check. The problem is, the 2000 is different from the 01 and the 01 is different from the 02. I think the 02 & 03 are fairly close. I will be in touch!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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dougmeyer
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posted October 22, 2004 10:47 AM
Vincent- Sounds like you've tested the pump adequately. Next check the pins in the engine harness (where you put the P/C) and the mating plug on the main harness. Make sure none of them are pushed back, not making contact. Might do the same at the injector harness plug.
Doug
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VincentHill
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posted October 22, 2004 11:32 AM
DM, I wrote this where I was "Looking for the Pump and ECU
Here is the Latest! The Expresion "We have Met the Enemy and he is us"! Just might hold true here.
Anything Doug Meyer says, I take "Extremely serious" it can be a Bright sunshining day and if he says it is going to rain, I take a rain suit.
Knowing that the bike will run on spray (Starting Fluid) really lessen the chances that it is the ECU, but does not 100% Rule it it either. Bypassing the pump and holding the Throttle WOT and seeing the dribble out of the injectors tells me that it needs more fuel. Driving old cars and (of course being Po) I have run out of gas and had crap in the fuel tanks which allowed them to run but not well. Add to this Speaking to Pierre in SA telling me of his experience with bikes I have come to this conclusion.
Remember I made the tank I use, I have had to sipon the fuel out many times. The Larger the hose the faster you remove it. I have a large hose that just fits the opening and "Sometimes is Chaffed on the sides when removing it." Take this and maybe too many fuel bottles that may not have been strained properly, and you can have a Clogged filter / Screen. There are 2 places in the Pump this can happen and tonight I will take the Pump out, clean everything and Bypass the Filters and install an External in line FI Filter, then try it again. For the First time, the possible problem matches the symptons and I actually feel like this does have a Shot.
Already checked the Pins, they tried to be Dam Fool Proof with those Yellow Plastic clips to stop "MOST" People! Thanks DM, As soon as I get home I am taking the Tank off and doing these things and report back (I am "Starting" to get tired, but the "Chase" (like when I could REMEMBER being Young and was after the Women!)
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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beansbaxter
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posted October 22, 2004 12:18 PM
quote:
ECU failures are extremely rare. I've actually never heard of a documented case, only hearsay.
When the odo on my 12 turned over at 20,007 miles, the bike went dead. Fish told me to check for error codes, but none were coming up. So the dealer diagnosed it, and it was a bad ECU. Replaced under warranty. That was 10k miles ago and all is good so far.
Any reason then why it happened if it is so rare? Cause everything in that area is all stock on my bike.
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