ra12r
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posted February 02, 2002 05:59 PM
Closing off exhaust Emission holes
Has anyone closed off the the holes that is the Emission air passages in the head. Has this created a internal engine pressure problem?!
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ZXtra
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posted February 02, 2002 11:25 PM
???
If you're talking about the kleen air system that vents air into the exhaust, the answer is yes. They can be blocked with some plates that can be purchased from Muzzys. But the passages only vent into the exhaust ports and not into the crankcase. So, no pressure problems.  -ZXtra
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EastBayDave
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posted February 03, 2002 06:25 AM
quote:
Has anyone closed off the the holes that is the Emission air passages in the head. Has this created a internal engine pressure problem?!
Other methods besides block-off plates: Epoxy the holes in the head, weld the holes, make your own block-offs (I used two plumbers tap type plugs w/teflon tape-works), connect the two rubber lines to each other. Don't forget to plug the airbox line w/a automotive freeze plug or it will suck air...
good luck
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ra12r
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posted February 03, 2002 08:42 AM
If you study the clean air system real close and examine the reed valve under the valve cover, i do believe that you will see that it is also pvc valve.....i used the muzzy block off plates and it created a pressure oil leak around the spark plug tubes!!! I removed them, leak stopped immediately!!!
Think, if both tubes are connected to the airbox, and the kleen air valve is vacume regulated via the FI and the vacume valves connect to the valve covers and to the airbox, creating a closed loop between the crank case tube and the kleen air/pvc, then it is serving a dual role.
If this is correct, then at road speeds, the internal engine pressure would have to have a higher pressure than the air box in order to vent.
So if the Kleen air/pvc system is removed, and "block off plates" installed, the pressure would try to relieve itself:
1)after bike slows down via crank tube to airbox.
2)out along the valve stems
3)out along the alternator wires (explaining wires leaking oil)
Poll question.....Of all you guys with bearing problems, are you using block off plates?!
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MadMike
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posted February 03, 2002 09:07 AM
Nope, no block off plates here! and my bearing were about ready to go.
MM
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redelk
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posted February 03, 2002 10:22 AM
I did it like my 7R
... and just connected the two tubes together. I was inspecting the reed valves last night. DAMN! "Gunk" sure does build up in there! It also kinda messy to clean up too. Still, I did and everything is all clean and "happy". I don't know if this matters, but when ever I remove and clean them, I always put a little Silkolene grease around the rubber edge before I install them back. I forgot where I heard or read about it or why to do it, but that's what I do.
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ra12r
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posted February 03, 2002 07:53 PM
Question Red Elk, why is that stuff building up?!
Mad Mike,,,,"about ready"....is that like "almost won"?! Without knowing YOUR bearing wear rate, it could have been like that since the first time you ran your bike low on oil to gain more horsepower.............I know you tried that at least once!!!? Remember, it only takes one sperm!!!
We have all made assumptions over the past two years about several things that are for sale just because the "right" people endorse them, however everything should make sense. Why did my leak start and then stop based on those block off plates.....????
If it is simply allowing "CLEAN AIR" into the exhaust ports, then why does Red Elk have a junk build up?! Where is the pv system on our bikes?! We know where the exit is, where is the entrance?! What if we have it all backwards. Does anyone have the explaination for how the system works from the factory publishings?! That would answer my questions.........
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krexken
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posted February 03, 2002 09:01 PM
I'd guess that the exhaust pressure caused the gasket under the valve cover to fail thereby possibly creating excess crankcase pressure. I don't see how the system could act a PCV system at all. It can only suck in. What little does blow back is pressure. Not good, especially in your airbox. The reed valve port isn't connected to the crankcase in any way with them plugged or disconnected. Your is the first I've heard to cause an oil leak. Perhaps your valve cover isn't properly compressing the sparkplug/reed port gasket.
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redelk
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posted February 03, 2002 09:30 PM
 Edited By: redelk on 3 Feb 2002 21:34
Any guess... would be JUST THAT!
I don't even have a clue. I can only suspect that it is "cooked" MX4T oil. It has all the chacteristics of that, when I cleaned it out. I'm real anal about what brand and at what level I keep my oil. I've used Mobil 1 MX4T ever since we busted open the crate and I do not run it "low for HP". I'm too slow to need it (and I don't do ANY drag racing).
I just got finished doing the oil pressure mod (thanks for bringing that topic up) and checking my valves. I also removed all my clutch plates and inspected that area. I throughly inspected the lower end while the pan was off, as well as the area around valves and cams. After 28K miles, the inside of each cover (especially the valve cover and the oil pan) were almost clean enough to eat out of. No build up or debris of any kind. Also, there is no signs of oil leaking on ANY of the engines gaskets or covers and plates.
It's be almost 15K miles since I last inspected the reed valves. The tubes that come up from the case to these valves, seem to be clean also. I'm figuring that what little oil might migrate up to this area above the valve cover (as a "fine "mist" or even as a "gas"), gets trapped.
The "tubes" in the valve cover go straight up and then bend at about a 45 degree angle as it goes into the area that the reed valves are in. The opening in these two "chambers" is not on the bottom, but is about half way up the side. Even if it's just a slight mist of oil, it will eventually collect on the bottom of these "chambers". Now that this oil is basically trapped and is not circulating, all it can do is just sit there and "bake" from the heat of the valve cover and engine.
Since these "chambers" are sitting almost directly over the exhaust valve and get next to no cool air circulating over the cover plates, I'm guessing that over a period of time, it would get hot enough to "fry" any type of oil. Of course, the amount of oil I'm talking about is less then 5 cc(about a teaspoon's worth or .0018% of the bike's total oil capacity) in each chamber. Still, it doesn't take a lot of oil to make a mess and a total of 10 cc of "cooked" oil can make a big mess of sludge.
I can't help but figure that this has to be the case, since the "tubes" that are coming out of the head (and connect into the bottom of the valve cover) do not have any signs of build up. It seems like the oil is either burnt off or flows back down into the crankcase. To further my "trapped" therory, the rubber connecting tube I have going between the two plates, also did not have any kind of build up. It did have a slightly dark oily film, but no signs of sludge or cooked oil.
If I were to actually guess, I'd say that it would take quite some time for it to build up like it did. I had a similar build up when I cleaned them at 13K miles. Even with the oil goo in there, the reeds still functioned as they were designed.
It does make me wonder what it would be like if I just ran block off plates and didn't have the reed valves in there. Would it build up the same or would the oil just make it's way back down into the case? The reed valves only open one way (towards the case). Does this have something to do with it?
I'm not really sweating it. I get in there and clean it often enough that I'd be hard pressed to see it causing any concern. I also don't think that it is any kind of "sign" that something is wrong. As long as the tubes coming up through the case shown no signs of build up, I ain't goin' really worry about it (as long as I remember to clean out the "chambers" ever 13K~15K).
Of couse, sind I DO NOT HAVE A CLUE on what I'm talking about, it could just as easily mean that my engine is on the verge of blowing up. I kinda doubt it though.
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krexken
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posted February 03, 2002 10:04 PM
Edited By: krexken on 3 Feb 2002 22:06
RedElk, not sure where the oil or sludge is coming from but it shouldn't be oil. It's not connected to any oil passage or the crankcase. Only the exhaust port. It's probably exhaust goo mixed with some condensation. Block off plates without the reeds shouldn't make any difference.
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ra12r
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posted February 04, 2002 07:11 AM
Krexen, don't know your background, so here i go.....the tubes you refer to do in fact connect to the exhaust port holes and into the valve cover creating a airpassage. But, the system underneath the valve cover is not sealed in such a way that it does not have access to the air inside the motor. Hence, the way that the oil "mist" as Red Elk described it or even a greater quantity can get into this vacume valve air system. This is for crank case pressure regulating.....
IF you remove the Kleen air system and blow into it with your mouth, you will see that the air can flow in "BOTH" directions!!!!! Kawasaki is killing two birds at once with this!
Does anyone have the factories "written" description of how the system works?
I could be wrong, but if fresh air is all it needs for emissions, then it doesn't need to be connected to the pressurized air box. But, because it is connected, it is also pressurized and then it regulates by the vacume valve connected to the FI. Just because it is not electronic, doesn't mean it is not functional.
Only one tube connected to the airbox would to some degree create a "vaccume condition" or "pressure condition". But, if you remember that is the exact instructions given by some to create more HP by creating a vaccume in the crankcase. The only way to do that is by blocking one side off to block off the vent, and connect the other tube to a suction.
Once again, if it is not a pv/emission system, then where is the second vent tube for the motor?! ie: one is down by the transmission on the left hand side above the shifter area, where is the other?! hint::::look under the valve covers::::
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redelk
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posted February 04, 2002 07:24 AM
Edited By: redelk on 4 Feb 2002 13:25
Sounds logical... kinda
Krexken, I cleaned the reed valve assembly with lacquer thinner from my work. It's a industrial blend specifically made for us by a local solvent company that we get in 55 gallon drums. It's substancially strong then what's available to general public at the local paint or hardware store.
Needless to say, after soaking the reed valve assembly in it and letting it sit in the chambers with the holes plugged with a q-tip (of course, the valve cover is OFF the bike!), it can easily turn carbon deposits into sludge. After putting some further thought on it, I will admit that the original state of what's on the assembly is NOT a soft sluge, but a hard caked, jet black deposit.
I will also admit that I did NOT inspect the openings on the head where the valve cover connects to, with a "microscope". I just observed that there did not seem to be an noticable build up around those openings. As I have said earlier, This is the second time that I have cleaned these assemblies and chambers, but I have never done any kind of cleaning of the "tubes" in the heads.
Since I haven't cleaned them at all, wouldn't there be even more build up of the possible carbon (or what ever it is) in and around the openings of these "tubes" in the head? Or is is just basically "cooked off" due to the higher temps of the head vs. the temps of the valve cover? Something to the effect of it possibly being a "carbon gas" until it reaches the valve cover.
As I type this, I remember that when I was cleaning the exhaust ports (since the header is off getting the bung installed for the O2 sensor) that indeed, the build up in the chambers reacted to the laquer thinner just like the build up in the exhaust ports. There was substancilly less build up in the exhast ports, but I'd be lying if I said that there wasn't any at all. There was even a slight (and I can honestly say VERY slight) build up where the header connects to the exhaust ports, but by the time it gets to the header's collector it's just a thin " sooty coating". In other words, something you could detect by wiping you finger on the inside surface of the collecter.
Sooooo, I'd would assume then, that this would be caused by running the bike too rich and at lower RPMs for an extended period of time. Is that a logical conclusion? I did notice that the plugs were not their normal "paper sack" brown. They were slightly darker then that, but the did not have any build up on them. Does this mean that there could be a build up on the tubes in the head and I just didn't see it?
Now, I DO have a slight concern. Is this something that is extremly out of the norm? Is this some indication of a possible problem or a "condition" that needs to be addressed? If there was some kind of build up in the head's tubes, how could on clean it out, WITHOUT having to remove the head?
It's been a long, long time ago, but if I remember correctly, someone else had mentioned that the had noticed a similar build up through out the exhaust port area, when they had removed the head to have some work done on it. Since only a few others (like Old Knee Dragger, maybe TedG and less then a handful of others) have the kind of mileage on their engines as I do, Is this something I need to address? It's obvious that OKD and TedG ride faster and spend a lot more time in the higher RPM bands then I do. I do a lot more on-off throttling then they do and very rarely spend any significant amount of sustained WFO time. Is this my problem? Any suggestions? Anyone?
BTW - When I clean the reed valve assembly, I coat the rubber edge with a fairly good layer of Silkolene grease. I figure that might be part of of what's that build up could be. Now I'm just kinda freakin' and looking for anything to explain it away!
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EastBayDave
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posted February 04, 2002 07:47 AM
Edited By: EastBayDave on 4 Feb 2002 07:51
Two things I think need mentioning:
BEFORE you install "Block-off's" realize the reed valves (mounts) are "spacers!" If you install them without the reeds you will warp the Block-Off plates. This is the voice of experience, I had to have a machinist re-surface the bottom of the plates after I warped them. Take note!
PCV system? No, the Kleen-Air system is not connected to the crankcase. KAW has been making this system since 1981' in an effort to introduce cool, clean air into the exhaust port (just downstream of the valve.) It then burns unburned gases just downstream of the port & in the pipe.
This gives cleaner (leaner) emissions, so the factory can set richer jetting/injection settings. It's a 20 year old system man, read your service manual for further explanation. It's explained w/pics in there...
The chambers on the valve cover are NOT connected to the crankcase. The gunk in there is only exhaust crap/chemicals blowing back up into the little reed box via the hole/passageway from the exhaust port...
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Enjoy the ride!
02' ZRX1200
00' ZX12R sold
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Y2KZX12R
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posted February 04, 2002 08:00 AM
RA12r, there is no connection between the crankcase and the secondairy air system.
If you are getting an oil leak or oil consumption then somthing is assembled wrong.
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tuusinii
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posted February 04, 2002 09:51 AM
quote:
RA12r, there is no connection between the crankcase and the secondairy air system.
If you are getting an oil leak or oil consumption then somthing is assembled wrong.
Yeah - I'd say also so because in '90 ZX11 European model there isn't such a system, but You can see the place in the headcover where the system would come but there isnt't even a hole which were plugged - its a one peace cast. And when You remove the cover You see the same cind of holes in the head which go to exhaust. So if Kawasaki delivers bikes with "plugged" holes it can't make any bad side-efects.
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ra12r
Zone Head
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posted February 04, 2002 06:18 PM
okay, i have been looking in the service manual today, and the valve is supposed to only function in the direction toward the exhaust ports.
So, i still would like to know then why Red Elk and myself has "stuff" INSIDE this reed system and the service manual even says to clean off the build-up with petroleum based solvents? This stuff is not coming from the airbox or the exhaust ports. It is coming from inside the valve covers! I think i will just turn my valve cover upside down and fill it with water, if it leaks then the system is open to the inside of the motor, if not then it is a closed system. I have been wrong before!
No one has tried to comment on any of my other points yet though?! Remember, it must all make sense!!!
Red Elk, two of my exhaust ports were TOTALLY plug from baked in "stuff"....had to be drilled out by my head guy!
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redelk
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posted February 04, 2002 09:32 PM
ARRRGH!
Come on, ra12r! Don't be tellin' me stuff like that! I'm skittish enough, as it is! When you say "exhaust ports", you ARE talkin' about the ones that connect to the valve covers... (GULP!) AREN'T YOU?
That just brings up another question. How could one inspect or even clean these "ports" without having to completely remove the head assembly? Also, what could be the potential dangers of operating an engine if these "ports" were clogged with this carbon build up?
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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kcadby
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posted February 04, 2002 10:47 PM
Edited By: kcadby on 4 Feb 2002 22:48
GEEEz...
To repeat something (not a quote) Doug Meyer said...
Sometimes you guy THINK too much...
Red...DON'T worry about this...
ALL this does is let fresh air FROM THE AIR BOX into the exhaust for EMISIONS...ONLY!!!
(as ZXTRA, Y2K and EBD have said)...
I would be GLAD if the holes plugged themselves off...
It is COMMON practice to close off these holes on Dragbike heads...
They have NOTHING to do with the crankcase...to repeat what has been said by other people...again...
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ra12r
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posted February 05, 2002 09:43 AM
Edited By: ra12r on 5 Feb 2002 09:46
I hate becoming a dumb dumb in the issues that i am having problems with!
RedElk, i wouldn't worry about your head at this point. BUT, BUT, BUT, No one has explained this "phenomena" that we are having to this point. But, everyone is very confident about the system being NOT connected to the air inside the motor.
So, would someone that "doesn't think" too much please explain where this oil film is coming from that is inside of his "clean air" tubes?!!!!
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redelk
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posted February 05, 2002 10:24 AM
I'm not so sure that it's oil
Now that's everything is cleaned out, I really don't have anything to refer to except my memory (NOT a good thing). Because of the solvent I was using to clean with, I no longer can say with absolute conviction that it was a film of oil or just the solvent reacting with the carbon build up.
To make things even more confusing, I never had any signs of oil leaking or abnormal rates of consumption. I change oil every 2500~3500 miles and drain out just a little less then what I had put in (counting what I drain from the oil filter). I don't know, maybe a couple 100 cc at worst. Half of that could still be in the 1063 filter (I don't use the smaller 1070 filter).
Every time I change my oil, I pour the old oil through a coffee maker filter, so I can closely inspect for any possible debris or metal shavings.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted February 05, 2002 10:32 AM
Thats a good idea Red. I do the same. Also I use a roller cutter and cut the oil filter open and lay out the pleated element on newspaper to dry.
The next day you can examine whats going on inside the engine. It helps to have an eyepiece to look at the particles with. Most of what you will find is aluminum and bronz,but using a magnet you can seperate the steel if there is any. If you do this EVERY oil change you can catch major engine troubles BEFORE they become painfully obvious.
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22348bCVC
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posted February 05, 2002 02:49 PM
Edited By: 22348bCVC on 5 Feb 2002 14:50
....and so we ask,
...I vaguely remember (just like RED...  ) the discussion of which oil filter to use...most say (I think) that its the 1070....and our most respected RED here says "(I don't use the smaller 1070 filter)"...not that it makes a big diff to me which filter I use (I think), but I'm curious as to why RED doesn't use the smaller filter...its a good thing to know that if 1070s are out of stock that the 1069s(?) are an option...or is this some secret squirrel bigger filter option that promotes some engine longevity and a healthier smile?...I know that it was said by some that 1069s were used earlier because 1070s were not readily available...back to you, RED...
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redelk
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posted February 05, 2002 04:41 PM
22348bCVC , you're pretty close...
The actual part number for the ZX-12R A1(and A2) OEM oil filter is 16097-1070. With all the various delays in the delivery of the first batch of 12Rs, there was even a bigger delay on often replaced parts (i.e. oil filters and tires). Since there was a "required" oil change a 600 miles (I think), owners and dealers alike, were freaking out over the fact there were no 16097-1070 filters available and KMC couldn't even say when they were even going to start shipping them. KHI had already had enough frustration over the introduction if the 12R and this was not something they wanted added to it. Imagining hundreds, if not thousands, of new 12R owners just sitting there and looking at a bike they could not ride because they couldn't change the oil, would have been too much.
Sooooo... KHI informed all their distributors and dealers that the 16097-1063 (not the 1069) filter could be used as a substitute, until the 16097-1070 became available. At that time, the 1063 was one of the most commonly used filters. It was OEM on everything from several models of cruisers, sportbikes and I believe some ATVs.
Everybody was now happy, again. That is until the 12R owners went back for another filter and the 1070 were now available. The average cost of the 1070 was two to FOUR times of what the 1063 was. I stuck with the 1063. Eventually, the 1070 was used to replace several other older filters in the Kawasaki line and now almost rivals the 1063 as the most common filter. This has also caused the price of the 1070 to drop dramatically. I wouldn't swear to it, but I'd guess that there is little, if any, difference in price, between the two filters.
As far as "size" goes, yes, the 1063 is SLIGHTLY bigger. The key word is "SLIGHTLY". The diffrence between the two is so little, that I seriously doubt if there is any benefit in using the 1063 over the 1070. It's basically a "placebo effect" in one thinking that if it's bigger, it will filter better. With the size difference being as small as it is, I would think that this would be VERY difficult to prove.
The main reason I still use the 1063 is that it was the same size filter that is used on the 7R P series. Since I put almost 69K miles on my '97 P2, I bought a lot of 1063 oil filters. A LOT of them! I'm just used to walking into the parts area of my dealership and grabbing a 1063 off the shelf. I could do it blindfolded. Is the 1063 better? I doubt it. It not "worse", eiter. After all, it IS acceptable to use according to KHI. Basically, it just boils down to the fact that I'm a creature of habit.
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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ra12r
Zone Head
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posted February 07, 2002 06:56 PM
I would just like to thank the folks that said "I was wrong about the clean air system" and then giving an explaination for why I was wrong. Thank you for directing me to the factory service page and thank you for explaining the pv system on the motor. Thank you for explaining why the addition of block off plates "IMMEDIATELY" started an oil leak, and thank you for explaining why some memebers have gotten a leak in the wires from their alternator.......
I know that i am "STUPID" for even had suggested that the bike had a pv system and the clean air system was a dual purpose, so I just want to thank all the folks who haven't been "thinking too much" for explaining why I have had these experiences!!!!!!
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kcadby
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posted February 08, 2002 02:52 PM
I apologize for the "tude" I was in when I posted that chit...
It just so happened that I had just experienced another situation where I told someone some "facts" about something and then he (being HUMAN ) went and did just the oposite because...he THOUGHT  "it was the thing to do"...
It won't take very much oil at all to look REALLY nasty inside the reed chambers IMO...
A small amount of exhaust does get past the reeds and into the chambers. Over time it will build up....
ONE way "some" oil can get into that system is...from the air box...
Some people have posted getting some oil in they're air box (for whatever reason)...
Since most of it was probably carried into the box in vaporous form...it PROBABLY? gets sucked into the clean air system also...
I have a 12 here right now that had a LOT of oil in the air box...to the point where the air-box drain hose was completely filled (NO! maintanence)...
ANYWAY...I'll look at the clean air system that WAS on this bike and see if it's oil-eee...
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