shrpshootr
Parking Attendant
Posts: 11
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posted October 18, 2004 11:01 AM
Yet another exhaust question?
I posted a question sometime back about exhaust for my 04 zx12 and was advised to consider a full system. My question now is which one? I have done some saving and I want to get something nice. I am considering the micron serpent, arata, or titanium muzzy. Please let me know if you have any experiance with any of these systems or if there is something else I should considered priced around a thousand to twelve hundred or so. Thanks a lot!
  
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beansbaxter
Needs a life
Posts: 5911
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posted October 18, 2004 11:23 AM
One word. Muzzys.
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Zaphod Breeblebox
Expert Class
Posts: 117
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posted October 18, 2004 11:32 AM
I recently bought an Arata full-titanium system. It's a beautifully-made system and weighs about 8 or 9 pounds from headpipes to the exhaust exit. That means you will drop about 20 pounds from your bike, and you will notice an instant change in the dynamic behavior of your bike as well as getting a nice power bump. It's quite a bit louder than the stock system, but so far the neighbors haven't complained. 
I ordered it direct from the Arata importer at http://www.arata-ex.com. Point of contact there is Owen Weichel. Nice guy and excellent customer service.
Cost was right at $1,200.
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Zaphod
Y2K ZX-12R
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Zaphod Breeblebox
Expert Class
Posts: 117
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posted October 18, 2004 11:39 AM
 Edited By: Zaphod Breeblebox on 18 Oct 2004 12:39
shrpshootr -
In a previous thread I posted pictures of the Arata components before I installed the system. Here:
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=1&TID=12336
There was also a thread with installation pictures, but apparently the images have been bumped off the hosting service.....
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Zaphod
Y2K ZX-12R
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shrpshootr
Parking Attendant
Posts: 11
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posted October 18, 2004 01:04 PM
Zaphod
Those pics look really nice. I found one for $1099.99, so the price is right in there. How much HP gains did you get? Thanks.
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Zaphod Breeblebox
Expert Class
Posts: 117
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posted October 18, 2004 01:54 PM
shrpshootr -
I have not dynoed the bike, so I don't have any hard data. Owen Weichel says a typical ZX-12R will see an 8 to 10 HP gain.
I can only tell you my butt-dyno impressions. Slight loss of torque between idle and 3500 rpm. Back to normal at 3500 with a slight bump at 4500, and a noticeable hit at 5500 and on up. Low-speed driveability is not affected; there is no lurching at low revs in first or second gear. My bike exhibits a minor idle hunt.
So in all, it's a very driveable system. (By the way, I am not using a Power Commander.) I don't know if it ultimately makes as much horsepower as an Akro race system, but does seem to have a nice broad power band.
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Zaphod
Y2K ZX-12R
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danohall
Parking Attendant
Posts: 4
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posted October 18, 2004 04:41 PM
Have the Serpent on mine. Will need a PCIII as the header causes the 2500 rpm flat spot. Other than that love it. 179.6hp dyno'd.
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Canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted October 18, 2004 05:39 PM
Both the Ti Force and the Hindle Race pipe work well, but I suppose the most important issue is: what do you want from the pipe? Both the Hindle and the Ti force have been shown to produce the most HP, but if that isn't the most important, then consider the others. The Hindle is cheaper than the Ti Force, and you can see that from the fit and finish, but it's still a great pipe, and is actually not too loud, but with just enough snort to turn heads when you open it up. The Ti force is a work of art (seems to me to be about the same quality as the Akrapovic) and makes really good power...especially on the top end. When I dyno'd my 1270 with the Ti Force it just kept pulling and pulling right to the limiter (and beyond I'm sure). I like the sound of the Ti force better than the Akra, but then again that may have been the big bore talking!!! 
Personally I think the price of the pipe has to have the price of the power commander added in. I hear guys talking about how the "butt dyno" is so accurate and how they don't need a PCIII or R, but we were able to add over 15 hp to the best butt dyno settings I could figure out, and I have been able to eliminate all of the 2500 rpm hesitations as a result of tuning time on the PCIIIR. The only thing left to tackle is the very rare stalling at closed throttle at about 3500 rpm. I know how to fix it, but haven't had it happen in so long that I am hesitant to change the map.
Also these engines seem to love timing. I have added 5 degrees to the top end and have gained 2-3 HP per degree on the top end (timing ramped up from 0 degrees at the lower rpm's) and am willing to bet that it might like even more (although I am hesitant to go much beyond 6 or 7 degrees).
I have no personal experience with Muzzy pipes, but when I was shopping, I knew that they did not have anything I wanted...and that included the Ti pipe.
One thing to consider: If you buy a Ti pipe and it does not have a bung welded in for an o2 sensor, you will have a very hard time putting a sensor in your pipe. I have searched high and low and have not been able to find any bungs.....once I get my lathe that will change, but for now we are Shit out of Luck.
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shrpshootr
Parking Attendant
Posts: 11
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posted October 19, 2004 11:07 AM
Canadamaxxer
Thanks for the info. I agree that a power comander is essential. After some searching I am really leaning toward the Arata. I can get it for $1097.00 and a PC for an additional $239.00. That is the best price I have found so far. I am really drawn to the full titanium systems. I have looked at the Ti Force, but I like the overally look of the Arata a little better. I do love the mello sound of the Ti Force. My buddy has one on his zx10 and it sounds great and its definitely not too loud. The o2 sensor will not be an issue for me because we have no emmission standards in my state. Again, thanks to all who have responded.
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TurboBlew
Moderator
BUSY DOING THE SCHIAVO
Posts: 4590
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posted October 19, 2004 11:09 AM
Ive got a Ti force you can buy for $775 plus shipping.
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Official Charter Member of the RIDERS OF KAWASAKI MEMBERSHIP REVOCATION CLUB
Also a BadAss Internet Forum Moderator 4 Hire!! Come at me brah!
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted October 19, 2004 01:43 PM
Canadamaxxer, What you wrote is about the most accurate assessment of the pipes you mentioned. You were most correct about Looks! The TiForce and Arata (Both designed by the same man Arata Last) are so beautiful that they can make a little less HP and you just do not care. Compared to the very Industrial looking welds on the Hindle. Just Like an Fugly Woman, do not let her get hold of you, because she will make sure that you do not want anything else! I had an Akrapovic and it was Art Work also. I tuned it for years! The Very first pull with the hindle (Using the Akra Map), it made 2 HP more while being quieter! I really hated to sell the Akra but I sold it used (Bought it Used) for close to the same price I paid for the NEW Hindle and I have not looked back!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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Rob Hughes
Novice Class
Posts: 76
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posted October 19, 2004 06:15 PM
THe one thing I will throw into this one is the Tiforce has the "steadiest" idle of any pipe I have heard. It's all about the last collector being way back on the mid pipe...for what it's worth I have yet to hear a TiForce hunt at idle. And Turboblew's got a killer price on his........
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Rob Hughes
Orient Express
1-800-645-6521
NY 516-546-5232
Rob@OrientExpress.com
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10rmotor
Novice Class
Posts: 100
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posted October 19, 2004 08:56 PM
Edited By: 10rmotor on 19 Oct 2004 22:40
Oxygen sensor bungs
CanadaMaxxer
K&N sells oxygen sensor bungs and plugs. Part number is:85-2440
See it here:
www.knfilterchargers.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=85-2440
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Canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted October 20, 2004 05:38 AM
Edited By: Canadamaxxer on 20 Oct 2004 11:29
10Rmotor: those look like mild steel to me....and that cannot be welded to a Ti pipe....unfortunately.
sharpshootr: I was not suggesting an O2 sensor for emissions. Both Dynojet and Spencer Cycle have data loggers using the wide band 02 sensor technology that can be used to tune the bike's mapping based on throttle opening, rpm, and air/fuel ratio (potentially a person could tune for perfect a/f ratio right from idle to WOT and never have to hit a dyno to do it)...and have the potential to do a whole lot more. Ask Entropy what he is doing with his...it is amazing how much infomation can be gathered with a data logger and the right sensor inputs. I will be getting one of those one day soon....I just need to find or make a Ti Bung.
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eastbaydave
Needs a job
Posts: 2245
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posted October 20, 2004 05:48 AM
Edited By: eastbaydave on 20 Oct 2004 06:48
I lean toward Muzzys on everything......BUT....
I also very much like my Akropovic EVO full system; & I also like the Tsukigi system http://www.tsukigi.com/menu.htm
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Enjoy the ride!
02' ZRX1200
00' ZX12R sold
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shrpshootr
Parking Attendant
Posts: 11
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posted October 20, 2004 08:35 AM
Canadamaxxer
Oh, Okay. I learn something new every day. That is interesting though.
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Canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted October 20, 2004 10:33 AM
I can't wait to get one of those data loggers. I am not sure which to get (the Dynojet one looks smaller and is only one unit as compare to the Spencer cycle unit that, if I remember correctly, needs an add-on to make it really effective) as they both have benefits. I think the cost is about the same for either (by the time you add in the extra pieces). I guess it just comes down to side-by-side comparison and a choice from there.
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10rmotor
Novice Class
Posts: 100
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posted October 20, 2004 05:09 PM
Canada
Sorry I missed the part about the Titanium pipe. The K&N parts are steel like you guessed. McMaster Carr sells Ti, BTW. Have you welded Ti before, and if so, was it very difficult? I'm thinking you need to weld it like stainless with more gas flow and longer coverage over the weld area, and back purging too.
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Canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted October 22, 2004 02:18 PM
10R motor,
No I have not welded Ti before , but I think you are probably right about the back purging, etc. I do want to learn how to do it, and do have the equipment, I just have a hard time with the cost of raw materials for practice...and to try to weld a Ti pipe without practice may be an expensive mistake. The "problem" (for my needs) with the design of the Ti-force pipe is that the final 2-1 collector happens immediately before the muffler...which would mean that an 02 sensor would be hanging in the breeze right before the muffler joint. I am thinking that I will put my Hindle pipe onto the bike with the Ti Force currently on it, and will just weld a bung to the Hindle pipe. It will be interesting to see what kind of power output is possible with that engine using the Hindle. That will be the real test for me. The Ti -force seems to build power right to the red line, while the Hindle seems to peak at 10,500 rpm.....but the difference may be cam timing, or some other variable (keeping in mind that both of the 12's I own are 1270's so they breath a little heavier than a 1200). I am very curious to see the final tally, but unfortunately the closest "real" dyno is almost 4 hours away. I will get most of the tuning done with the wide band commander (or spencer cycle LM-1?) first for both the base map and the Nitrous and then head down for a final test.
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted October 22, 2004 02:33 PM
Edited By: CrotchRocket on 22 Oct 2004 15:33
I have an Akrapovic on my 2002 ZX12 with 16-44 gearing, Muzzy kleen air system blockoffs, BilletBasket, slammed, 57inch wheelbase, use MR9 fuel and the rest of the bike is OEM...
Best ET & MPH to date is 9.47 @ 152.83 foot shifting without a PowerCommander!!!
Akrapovic will always be my choice of exhaust from now on!!!
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Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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hbeat12r
Parking Attendant
Posts: 25
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posted October 29, 2004 10:34 PM
Muzzy/Arakapovic
I just changed my exhaust from the Muzzy full (polished oval can) to the Arakapovic full race (carbon can). I had Muzzy install the quiet baffle in the can and it made no difference...that is until I took off the power commander! Once I removed the power commander my baffled Muzzy had "very" little idle hunt and it had "NO" hesitation/stumble problems at all. I wish I had removed the power commander before I ordered the Arakapovic. Since I had already ordered the Arakapovic, I installed it and low-and-behold it performs about the same as the Muzzy! Like I said, if I had known before I ordered the Arakapovic, I would still be a Muzzy man! The Arakapovic is a great pipe and I'm happy with, but I do miss that oval polished can. Who knows, maybe I'll change it back!
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lucian36
Parking Attendant
single
Posts: 21
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posted December 11, 2007 09:16 AM
hello . I got k&n air filter ,full system yoshimura trs carbon. Last days I received PC3 for 2004. Which map do I have to use?? A lot of friends are telling me the P.C is useless ,fuel consumption will go up the engine will not run nice etc etc .
ANY HELP? TKS Lucian
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twista
Zone Head
" Get up, and Stay up ! "
Posts: 797
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posted December 11, 2007 12:12 PM
MUZZY CARBON FIBER FULL SYSTEM W/ Packing removed and 1 1/2 inch shortened cannister,, thing is a lean and mean busa azz kicking machine,, no PC yet,, so i do have a very mild pulse at idle!
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" When in Doubt, There is no Doubt !"
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted December 11, 2007 01:38 PM
WTF is up with avatars?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Hells Dark Lord
Needs a life
living life, and loving it.
Posts: 7981
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posted December 12, 2007 04:36 AM
quote:
hello . I got k&n air filter ,full system yoshimura trs carbon. Last days I received PC3 for 2004. Which map do I have to use?? A lot of friends are telling me the P.C is useless ,fuel consumption will go up the engine will not run nice etc etc .
ANY HELP? TKS Lucian
if you are running a full system on your bike, you will almost certainly get results from having a PC....I went with a full Muzzy on my 02 12, and it had a very bad flat spot at about 4 grand on the tach. Had the PC installed and had it custom mapped and it ran perfectly.
With the Full Ti Muzzy, K&N filters, 4.5 degrees with a mechanical advance, and some tuning in the throttle bodies. Removed the KLEEN air crap. The bike went from 154hp stock, to 180hp tuned. And was just as smooth at idle as it was stock, just not as quiet....
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When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
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