BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
|
posted August 15, 2004 12:41 PM
quote:
Most aftermarket sprockets, IF THE HUBS ARE ON CORRECTLY, put the bolts in the center of the slot at stock cam settings. Looks to me like the inlet cam is advanced quite a bit.
I suggest that you find a set of stock cams and compare the hub position to them. (we use a jig to align them when pressing on).
I'm sorry to sound like a doofus, but, I don't know *exactly* what the hub is here, nor have I been fortunate enough to see a cam gear go on the cam. I presume the hub is the part on the actual cam that the cam gear/sprocket is pressed onto.
I'm kinda surprised to hear that it isn't notched or something to prevent screw-ups and to keep them properly aligned with each other.
  
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted August 15, 2004 01:33 PM
Not good BA! The #1 pin should be right at the surface of the metal on the head and the #31 pin just above the head and #32 just below the head. I see the marks and they should be even with the head where the #1 Pin is and the other one should have a Pin on each Side of them (#31 above the mark and #32 below the mark) 31 should be 3 pins down and 32 should be 3 pins down and they should be on both sides of that white dot.
The alignment should always have the marks in line with the surface of the head "On Both Cams at the same time".
I have just been through this but the cams and chain was correct but the pistons were machined wrong! You can use the used head gasket for measurements, but once "HEAT" has entered your engine, the coating on the gaskets glue themselves to the surfaces and they cannot be used again.
My strongest suggestion is to remove the cams and remove the head and see the mess you have! Also I suggest that you get some small baggies and mark them from 1-E-L, 1-E-R (For #1 Exhaust Left and R for Right) up to #4- IN-L, 4-IN-R and pull all of the cups and shims out NOW so that nothing will fall out when you forget and turn the head over to see what it looks like!
Most likely you have 4 or more bent valves. If you are lucky, you will be able to clean up the head and cylinder surface with a fine small file and have someone recut the seats and lap in the valves and get back underway! Exhaust Valves cost about $30 and about $20 for the Intake and $85 for the head Gasket. SO hopefully you will be under $500 to get back on the road. I hate this for you. Remember this if if the pistons have no real problems.
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
|
BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
|
posted August 15, 2004 05:14 PM
 Edited By: BA on 15 Aug 2004 20:48
I bought some new angled feeler gauges so that I can get a good valve clearance check.
Picked up a new black Craftsman roller bearing tool-chest too! 
I couldnt' resist, it was on super double Uber Markdown. It also makes a really cool place to keep my new $8 feeler gauges. 
|
MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
|
posted August 15, 2004 06:44 PM
quote:
quote:
but I don't do my own engines. I'm not skilled enough.
Neither, apparently, is the guy who assembled yours.... 
LMFAO.........
____________
200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
|
MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
|
posted August 15, 2004 06:48 PM
quote:
Here's my pin count stuff......I think I did it right.
In Pic #1, my single white dot on the cam gear is between two pins of the same link, I PRESUMED that PIN 1 was the pin just below the dot.
In this pic, you can also see what Doug Meyer was saying about my Intake cam on the left being very advanced.
In Pic #2, my single white dot is again between pins, but this one is between links. The manual kinda looked like the dot (stock) should be btwn pins on a single link.
I went ahead and counted up to the pin under the dot for a count of 35.
I marked the picture as to where pin 31 & 32 are at.
As I understand the manual, pin 32 should be just after the single dot and mine is actually pin 35. :-/
Dude, who the hell did your motor?? is it the same guy who did Ed's?
____________
200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
|
BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
|
posted August 15, 2004 07:54 PM
not the same guy Mike. (Mike is referring to BadAss12's engine woes in Cincy)
Sadly, this 'little' mistake will spread throughout the motorcycle & drag racing community here and probably result in lost business for the builder.
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted August 16, 2004 06:40 AM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 16 Aug 2004 07:43
BA,
There are multiple screwups here, not the least of which is not understanding at all what the manual is telling you to do. My advice is to take the head and cylinder off, remove the pistons and disassemble the head. Have the valves all checked. Replace the ones that are tweaked. Inspect the pistons carefully and any that show damage on the dome should be replaced. Then, when you put it all back together find someone who has done this before and work with him to get a clear understanding of how it all works. Right now print out this entire thread and sue the guy that put your engine together in small claims court or call your Bureau of Auto Repair or whatever in your state and demand your money back. This thread is all the evidence you need. The whole thing makes me sick.
Doug
|
BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
|
posted August 16, 2004 03:57 PM
I hear ya Doug. I'm actually on that road now and have a confirmation from the best builder in town that he'll help out. (he's close to me anyway, it turns out) Last night I got to see a disassembled head at his place so conceptually, it all came together for me. (I'm more familiar with V8's!)
quote:
not the least of which is not understanding at all what the manual is telling you to do
I presume that was directed at the builder, the 'you' part, not at me?
ANYHOO, I GOT SOME VALVE CLEARANCE NUMBERS!!! Pretty interesting stuff everyone. Gotta wonder how an engine goes out of the shop like this.
This is my first ever valve clearance check on a motorcycle engine and of course I double checked every measurement! I'm learning so damn much!
1-I-R = .0025", .06mm
1-I-L = .0025", .06mm
1-E-R = < .0015", .04mm
1-E-L = < .0015", .04mm
2-I-R = .003", .08mm
2-I-L = .003", .08mm
2-E-R = < .0015", .04 mm
2-E-L = < .0015" .04mm
3-I-R = .006", .15mm
3-I-L = .006", .15mm
3-E-R = .002", .05mm
3-E-L = .002", .05mm
4-I-R = .004", .10 mm
4-I-L = .005", .13mm
4-E-R = .002 ", .05mm
4-E-L = < .0015", .04mm
Talk about TIGHT, and NOT CHECKED! WTF!
The manual calls for:
Intake: 0.15 - 0.24mm (0.0059 - 0.0094)
Exhaust: 0.22 - 0.31mm (0.0087 - 0.012)
|
BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
|
posted August 17, 2004 12:18 PM
I spoke with the builder today. He says that he had counted 32 pins when it left the shop, also said he set all the valves. :-/
He's got another 12R that seems to have "jumped a few teeth" as well.
I asked if he had the tensioner in place and he said yes.
Any thoughts as to whether this puppy really could have jumped a few teeth? Ever hear of any other 12R's do that after a rebuild?
Either way, can that even happen? If so, what causes it? (improper tension?)
|
MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
|
posted August 17, 2004 12:41 PM
is it a manual tensioner? if so yes but only if it is to loose.
I have never heard of a stock tensioner jumping a tooth? and I dont think I have ever heard of a stock one failing yet?
my opinion is the dude did it wrong. I think you should do exactly what Doug says!
____________
200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
|
BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
|
posted August 17, 2004 02:18 PM
yeah, it is a damn manual tensioner which I specifically TOLD the builder not to use.
I just talked to Brock and he said (as well) that the manual ones from the vendor are not that great, he prefers the stock ones and that he has heard/seen of quite a few jumping teeth upon initial startup.
I asked the builder about the sprockets, etc and he mentioned (without my telling him) that he had it set with the 'dot' between the 31st and 32nd tooth. (as it should be, but coincidentally is not that way now) TDC was properly set first, exhaust dot at the top of the head, etc.
|
MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
|
posted August 17, 2004 02:43 PM
I would call the guy and tape him if possible and just ask him a couple of questions. like what the valve clearance was? and how the bike ran when he started it? etc... then sue him!
____________
200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
|
Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
|
posted August 18, 2004 04:21 AM
Sounds like so far, you have only had major inconvience. If your able to get things rolling again for minimal expense, then I would simply divorce the guy and get back to the positive as quickly as possible. My advise is different if you have major damage at this point. Just think, you could have broken your flywheel..........!?!
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted August 18, 2004 10:09 AM
Jumping teeth? Can't happen with the top giude shoe in place. He is starting the fancy footwork.
Doug
|
BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
|
posted August 18, 2004 12:53 PM
thanks guys, I really appreciate everyone's advice, seriously.
quote:
broken your flywheel
Funny Ra, a quip from the other thread!
|
psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
|
posted August 27, 2004 03:33 PM
Well BA??!
What have you determined to be the "actual" problem at this point?
Thanks!
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
|
BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
|
posted August 30, 2004 04:59 PM
so far, I can only verify that the cam clearances were super tight. It kinda looks as if the stock shims were put back in after a valve job on the head. (IMHO)
I have the appropriate shims in place now, need to re-measure them though.
Started to degree the cams in but didn't have an appropriate feeler thingy for the bucket.
Should be able to get back at it sometime this week....
|
DoTsTeR
Novice Class
Posts: 53
|
posted August 30, 2004 06:27 PM
makes me glad I decided to buy a used engine and not fix mine..
jebus.. this is aweful
|
MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
|
posted August 30, 2004 06:58 PM
Dotster, I would have done a MUCH better job on your engine then that!!!!
____________
200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
|
DoTsTeR
Novice Class
Posts: 53
|
posted August 31, 2004 09:25 AM
I actually know you would have...
but I got a felling you and about 10 other people in the US are the only ones that could have done it right
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC