MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted August 11, 2004 01:00 PM
dont forget to also check your valve to bucket clearence. That will tell you if you have a problem with the cam being 1 tooth off.
AMEN to what RA says I did the same thing heard something strange and listened to a "Mechanic" who said run it and I luckly only bent a valve and hung it up.
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ba
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted August 11, 2004 01:15 PM
wow. Serious engine damage RA. Thanks for the tip!!! Seriously. Sorry to hear about the damage though man......that sucks.
Mike,
"Fear the Black Flag",....dude, I made that up! You can use it in your avatar though. 
RE: the cam chain gear marks, I read the manual and was WONDERING if the dots on each cam gear should point RIGHT AT each other or not. You are correct in that they do not line up exactly. The right-side seems to be a tooth off to me as well. I didn't know if that was ok or not.
I will look closer tonight and read some more.
I also noted the mention in the manual about "counting pins" but didn't know if this applied to aftermarket gears. Sounds like you're saying it does, so I'll re-read that part and check it.
Sounds like I'm lucky I didn't break anything yet. WHEW!
The pics to me look like I AM NOT 180 degrees out from what I've read and heard here. The "1 tooth off" theory seems to be the next logical investigation here.
Please keep thoughts coming. I really appreciate the help.
Obviously, I'm pretty skeptical about calling the builder on this, but you can bet I'll talk to them when it's running.
BA
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted August 11, 2004 04:04 PM
In the picture of the Rotor, 1 - 4 are at TDC byt like I was saying, #1 Cylinder "IS" at TDC starting the Intake Stroke and just finishing the exhaust stroke. Now that I am home and looking at the book I realize that when the crank rotates 180 degrees more and the nub is at the pick up, #1 cylinder will have just fired! so it is OK!
Count your pins backward and forward to make sure and not fool yourself. You are not using a thiocker base spacer are you?
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted August 11, 2004 06:29 PM
Very cool. Thanks for that confirmation Vince.
I feel good now that I am NOT 180 out, but I gotta tell ya, those damn cam gear dots are 2 teeth off from each other. (see photo #2)
It seriously concerns me!
They are APE gears and I've read here in the past that others have had problems with the APE gear markings not being, ahem, reliable. I didn't know if that meant 2 teeth off though!!
I've got the plugs out now to do a quick cranking compression test. The local expert, and I do mean expert, was curious as to the compression to see if it's significantly too low or too high. A clue in the making perhaps!
I've loaded the Cliff Randall "final" map, I figure it should be real close and better than my original map. I wasn't going to fire it up until the compression was verified first.
I'm also working on borrowing an ECU or verifying my new one. Tomorrow holds some promise. 
I'm currently on hold because my damn compression testor fitting won't fit into the spark-plug hole!! It's for a car and is too big! Arrrgghhh! Off to Sears during lunch tomorrow!
Peace Out.
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted August 11, 2004 06:29 PM
I'm learning so much. It's crazy. I don't remember signing up for this......
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted August 11, 2004 07:44 PM
I'd chime in, but the photos don't come through for me.
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swft
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
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posted August 11, 2004 07:59 PM
What's your eyeglass prescription, Doug? Wormy can loan you his +2 glasses if ya need em.
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted August 11, 2004 08:44 PM
BA; I recognized the APE sprockets. Do you know for sure if they were pressed on the cams properly?! Do you see the "Scribe" line on the end of the cam shaft that shows where it aligned up w/ the line under the word "EX" on the OE sprocket? This should allow you to know FOR SURE if your sprocket(s) were installed correctly.
Now if these cams were running in the engine before the rebuild, they are probably OK.
I strongly recommend having the "Cam Sprocket Installation" sheet faxed to you from APE if you do not already have it. It is very important to have any time you would remove the cams for service etc.
PLUS you can CONFIRM that your "ONE DOT, TWO DOTS" questions are answered.
Basically....The One silver dot on the Intake Cam lines up w/ the OE position of the line under the word "IN"
The TWO silver dots on the Exhaust Cam line up w/ the OE position of the line under the word "EX".
Then confirm That pin 1 (Just above the two silver dots on EX Cam) counts over to pin 31 (Just above the one silver dot on "IN" Cam) and pin 32 just below one silver dot.
It's hard to tell..But your pic's do not represent this.
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted August 11, 2004 08:51 PM
That first pic of the cams shows two sets of double dots next to each other, like the "EX" cam is 180 out.
I know that the sprockets have two sets of dots....One silver and one black.
But it still points to one of the cams being 180 out....POSSIBLY, hard to tell by the pic's.
Hope this helps to some degree....
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted August 13, 2004 04:47 PM
Damn, I forgot to call APE today. Crap!
Psycho, I've got to tell you that I'm not so sure that the cams are on the new sprockets correctly. I do not have the original's here either, they are probably at the builder's shop.
The cams I have are stock OEM, 10,000 miles on them.
I verified the ECU on another Y2K 12R and it is fine.
I NEED to do the counting of the PINS still, and I hope to do that Saturday afternoon.
I was thinking, per the others' notes above, that I wasn't 180 out since my cam lobes seem to be in about the right place for the #4 cylinder. (10 and 2, roughly)
HERE'S THE BAD NEWS!!!!!
I did a compression check and came up with these numbers.
#1 - 50
#2 - 50
#3 - 175
#4 - 175
I even double checked. WTF!?!?!?
I was expecting something in the 220's. I thought that is what I had read in some older threads for BB 12R engines.
I do not have the tools for a leakdown test, but it seems like I need to get them.
Thoughts anyone? How fucked am I here?
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mrfast
Expert Class
Posts: 114
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posted August 13, 2004 08:13 PM
Make sure the hose is sealing properly in the head, most Kawasaki's have a shoulder next to the seating area of the spark plug and a lot of testers will not seal. If you suspect bent valves, check the valve lash, if they are bent the clearance will increase.Make sure you are using the correct mark on the cases to find TDC. It has been a while since looking at one but are you sure it is the seam where the cases meet or a different mark cast into the cases? When checking cam timing,make sure the cam chain is tight in the front of the motor and look at the marks on the sprockets as well as counting the pins. Double check after installing cam hold down caps and chain tensioner.(TIP, loosen chain tensioner center 12 mm hex bolt before removing from cylinder, this will aid in reasssemby)Also check to make sure the TPS plug and the airbox pressure sensor plugs are not reversed, they are different colors (grey and black) but totally interchangeable! If they are reversed it will run very rich and have a hesitation when the throttle is blipped.Just some ideas to try.
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mrfast
Expert Class
Posts: 114
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posted August 13, 2004 08:21 PM
BTW, if you find you have reversed the two plugs I spoke of in my previous reply,the pressure sensor will probably be fried, the air pressure sensor on the right side in the tailsection is exactly the same and can be installed in place of the airbox pressure sensor for testing purposes.Yes, I have had a little experience with this one!
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MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted August 14, 2004 04:37 AM
Allen, Dude I hope you checked your valve clearence before you did a compression check!!
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted August 14, 2004 09:13 AM
 Edited By: dougmeyer on 14 Aug 2004 10:14
Pics came up today.
The rotor position is correct.
The general cam orientation is correct.
Most aftermarket sprockets, IF THE HUBS ARE ON CORRECTLY, put the bolts in the center of the slot at stock cam settings. Looks to me like the inlet cam is advanced quite a bit.
I can't see enough to make a comment on the "dots, marks, and pin count".
I suggest that you find a set of stock cams and compare the hub position to them. (we use a jig to align them when pressing on).
Stop right now and do a leak rate check to veryfy the integrity of the valves. This will positively tell you if you've bent any valves. If not, focus on the timing issue and do it right. If the leak rate is bad, you've got to remove the head, of course and you can do this in the frame if you want. Just RTFB.
If all this is correct and it still runs crappy. mrfast is absolutely correct.
Doug
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted August 14, 2004 04:44 PM
quote:
BTW, if you find you have reversed the two plugs I spoke of in my previous reply,the pressure sensor will probably be fried, the air pressure sensor on the right side in the tailsection is exactly the same and can be installed in place of the airbox pressure sensor for testing purposes.Yes, I have had a little experience with this one!
You have given some real "SAGE" advice about the compression check and making sure the tool is "SEATED"!!
Second about the clearance because if the valve is bent it will be stuck in the down postition provided the head is still connected!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted August 14, 2004 05:28 PM
Whoops Mike, I didn't realize I should do that first. Of course, NOW it makes sense what with all you guys are teaching me.
The leakdown test is complete. Sheesh. It's a wonder my engine runs at all. 
#1 - 100% leaky, Intake and Exhaust
#2 - 100% leaky, Intake and Exhaust
#3 - 15%-18% leak, no intake, tiny tiny exhaust, mostly Rings
#4 - 30%-35% leak, Intake and Exhaust
I double and triple checked measurements.
I ensured good seal at the spark plug threads of the adapter. (Snap-On, with a 1/4" rubber seal.)
I realize that some clearance numbers would probably be nice right now, but, one thing at a time here!
I'll go start the valve clearances.....
Air Box Pressure Sensor plug and TPS plug are correct. My TPS is nicely marked with a white paint mark from plug to receptacle.
Thanks Fast, Mike and Doug....
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mrfast
Expert Class
Posts: 114
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posted August 14, 2004 07:43 PM
A tip that should eliminate this in the future. Start by retarding (valves will open later) the intake cam in the sprocket to the end of the slot and advancing (valves open sooner) the exhaust cam to the end of the slot and snug sprocket bolts.This will give you large lobe center #'s and max valve to piston clearance.This method will save the valves if you are a tooth off and engine is forced over.Install cams as normal,check cam sprocket timing, then degree cams "down" to your desired specs.Once you get this thing together correctly you will love it! I have been running the Muzzy 1270 for 4 years and 11000+ miles and am still impressed.
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted August 14, 2004 07:58 PM
that's awesome info MrFast, seriously, and lord I hope someone here will benefit from it and not go through what I'm going through, but I don't do my own engines. I'm not skilled enough.
I'm gonna save the info in a file for reference though.
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted August 14, 2004 10:55 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 14 Aug 2004 23:56
quote:
but I don't do my own engines. I'm not skilled enough.
Neither, apparently, is the guy who assembled yours....
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted August 15, 2004 06:13 AM
agreed.
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Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted August 15, 2004 06:18 AM
BA, the best part about this is you caught a problem early. Now stop saying you are not skilled enough and get to learning! Then you will be able to wade the shark waters of builders better.
I always watch who's winning and back track from there to the builder. I went and borrowed a cam degree video tape the time before last. When I did this, I discovered that the guy I had been paying to degree my cams to "special numbers" was in fact setting them at the fail safe 105/105. Basically, the set screws were always in the center of the adjustable sprockets. No wonder he only needed about an hour for me to return after I dropped off the motor. Dang was I mad!!! But, if i hadn't watch the tape, and practiced for 4 straight days with the motor on the engine stand, then I would still not know. I hope you have a good head guy, cause you need to have your guides checked too if the valve clearances don't correct you leak down. Personally, I would take the head back off and get things right on the bench. Think about it, 5min to get the head off. 15min to put it back on. Less than a good meal at McDonalds.
These are our TOYS, so make every part of this process fun. Please don't be in a hurry to get it back together either. That extra time really pays off when you get it right or REALLY COST if you work at it with a hard on.....LOL
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All must bow to the "Ra Supremecy"...
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted August 15, 2004 07:12 AM
can I re-use my head gasket? (fire suit donned)
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted August 15, 2004 09:14 AM
a lesson learned the hard way (running valves into pistons):
Next time i will:
1. dissasemble the head, take all valves out; check the stems, and keeper grooves
2. chunk any valves which even MIGHT have tagged the pistons
3. split the cases and check out the bearings.
I had an incident (oil drive shaft parted) after which the head/valves looked fine, and the valves even held alcohol poured into the ports. The pistons had only slight valve marks in the carbon so I thought "Whew, that was close..."
wrong-o was I. Shortly after putting it back together a valve head parted from the stem on the dyno, trashed the head & 2 pistons, gouged the block, screwed a cam and the bearings.
Re-using your head gasket?? I dunno???
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted August 15, 2004 10:04 AM
eloquently put.
I'll get a new one and check my piston tops assuming the head does end up needing to come off as I suspect it does.
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted August 15, 2004 12:31 PM
Edited By: BA on 15 Aug 2004 13:35
Here's my pin count stuff......I think I did it right.
In Pic #1, my single white dot on the cam gear is between two pins of the same link, I PRESUMED that PIN 1 was the pin just below the dot.
In this pic, you can also see what Doug Meyer was saying about my Intake cam on the left being very advanced.
In Pic #2, my single white dot is again between pins, but this one is between links. The manual kinda looked like the dot (stock) should be btwn pins on a single link.
I went ahead and counted up to the pin under the dot for a count of 35.
I marked the picture as to where pin 31 & 32 are at.
As I understand the manual, pin 32 should be just after the single dot and mine is actually pin 35. :-/
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