horse
Parking Attendant
Posts: 15
|
posted January 19, 2002 04:57 PM
New ZX1200 -- Not your Dads ZX
130 Modifications -- focusing on :::::
1. Low to Mid power Range (mapping)
2. Better gear mesh
3. Thicker shift shaft
4. 30 percent greater air flow
5. Updated Fuel & oil pump (bigger rotor) -- better cooling
6. Crank rotor improvements
7. New Clutch design for better cooling
8. Reduction in Driveline Lash
9. Improved throttle response mechanism
10. Fans relocated & quieter
11. Improved Coils
12. Other stuff is cosmetic
www.kawasaki.com is better --- the Info above stopped me from Buying a
BRAND New 2001 for $9740 out the door .....
Horse
  
|
zx12richard
Pro
The Green Monster..
Posts: 1133
|
posted January 19, 2002 05:27 PM
186 limiter also. Bigger facial aera to slow it aerodynamically Personally stated to me from Kawi mechanic of 16 years discussed at regional meetings but not mentioned to public.... Bigger price tag. Busa ugly headlights. They just gave it more low/mid to improve ridability for average rider... Downgraded the brakes from 6 pistons to 4..... Basically reducing parts to make it a budget bike.....Just my opinions.............Speed war is over with the 186 agreement..............
|
Cowboy
Pro
Posts: 1061
|
posted January 19, 2002 08:47 PM
Thats why i just bought a new 2000 again.It is the ultimate!
|
TripodMeat
Expert Class
Posts: 125
|
posted January 19, 2002 09:52 PM
I missing something here...is Mr. Horse ( Ed ?? )
promoting the 2002 ZX12 ???? of course, of course....
|
Scooter
Zone Head
Posts: 899
|
posted January 20, 2002 01:23 AM
What's wrong with my Dad's 12?....other than it's red.
____________
"Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional."
|
horse
Parking Attendant
Posts: 15
|
posted January 20, 2002 10:25 AM
I expected Harsher Attacks reference the 2000 & 2001 ZX12s
Found a 2001 for $9100 out the door -- brand new -- you guys know where there are
some cheaper than that for the taking ..... the 2002s will be going for $10.9 to $10.5K,
with the upgrades due to concerns about needed changes.......
Are you all saying the Upgrades are unnecessary?
>>> No Drive lash
>>> No clutches replaced
>>> Not Hard to shift
>>> Bike never runs Hotter than expected
>>> No lurching take offs, very smooth
>>> No relocating the Fans
>>> oil level easy to figure
Does your 2000/2001 have these problems? Convince me to Buy a 2001, rather than wait.
Seriously,
Horse (Email me at horse@janrix.com)
|
Ninjaman12R
Needs a job
as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
|
posted January 20, 2002 01:26 PM
Well....
The quirks that the '00 -'01 12s are know for are easily remedied. It's up to you on what you buy. If I was in the market for a 12 I'd still want the '00 if I could find one anywhere.
____________
What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
|
ZXtra
Expert Class
Posts: 490
|
posted January 20, 2002 03:21 PM
Re: New ZX12R...
Personally, I would buy a new ZX12. The improvements made will make it a an easier bike to live with.
I have a '00 model and I am totally satified with it(and it's even a red one). The few quirks have been addressed.
For me it would hinge on weather I wanted to do 190+ mph or settle for 186 mph.
I ride with 2 Busas so I like having the extra speed to cope with them. And I do cope quite nicely too!  -ZXtra
____________
The sixth sick sheik's sixth sheep's sick!
|
redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
|
posted January 20, 2002 03:37 PM
 Edited By: redelk on 20 Jan 2002 17:55
It's assumption
... that these "upgrades" will make any kind of dramatic change to the bike. Denial? No, notice I said "DRAMATIC" change. Rather then address your comments, I'm will reprint an e-mail (thank God for copy & paste) I sent to a friend who wasn't sure if he should get a '01 or an '02.He basically cut-n-pasted the promotional info off of KMC's site and I replied to each of these "improvements".
The only thing I didn't address here is your comment about the oil level being "easier to figure out". That one I don't understand. What's so hard to figure out about the original configuration? After putting in the proper amount of oil, I look at the site glass. Checking the level with the engine both hot and cold pretty well tells me where the level should be. What needs to be easier then that?
Anyway, grab a pillow (for "while reading" naps), because here we go...
2002 NINJA® ZX-12R FEATURES
4-Cylinder 1,199cc Engine
·Compact and light weight
·Aluminum cylinders with electroplated bores reduce weight, resist wear and offer superior heat dispersion
·Balancer shaft for smooth running at all rpm
This isn't any different the the '00 or '01.
Redesigned Crankshaft
·Increased weight at the crank by widening primary/starter and balancer gears
·Added inertia via narrower flywheel with smaller diameter and thicker outer rim
This is a change. A serious 4+ pound change. They have added 4.4 (or maybe it's 4.7) pounds to the crankshaft. IMHO, this wasn't such a great move. The reason behind this is to keep the bike from revving up as quick. In other words, they've taken the "punch" out of it. I think this is where your "No lurching take offs, very smooth" would apply.
Enhanced Fuel Injection
·Oval throttle pulley improves throttle control, especially at low to midrange engine speeds
This is a good improvement. A lot of folks are trying to figure out how to adapt this pulley wheel to the '00 & '01. The '00 & '01 is known for having a hard throttle pull. The oval pulley has an easier and progressive pull.
The folks at Muzzy are working on this for the older models. The thing is, everyone will have to wait until the '02 arrives before the can start working on it.
Six-Speed Transmission
·Decreased clearance between gear dogs for better gear engagement
Kawasakis are known for "clunky" shifting. This might help, but as long as they continue straight cut gears, it won't be that much of a improvement.
·Modified clutch damper helps reduce driveline lash
This hasn't really been a problem with older models.
·Increased oil flow in the clutch pull rod and clutch hub for extra durability
This has been a MAJOR problem for 12R owners. Let me qualify this... a problem with 12R owners who either drag race or do hard launches (i.e. a lot wheelies). Clutch baskets (aka "clutch hub") have been known to literally explode.
This is due to the limited oil flow through the clutch basket. Unlike other KHI sportbikes, the 12R holds only 3 quarts of oil, instead of 4. The clutch plates of the '00 & '01 models run in very little oil. It's almost a dry clutch.
Muzzy and Falcon offer aftermarket clutch baskets that have improved oil flow to the clutch plates. Since I don't drag race or do wheelies, as well as I almost never use the clutch on upshifts (and less then 1/2 the time on downshifts), this hasn't been a problem for me.
Not only do I have the original clutch basket, but I still have the original fiber and steel clutch plates after more than 28K miles. I haven't experienced any slipping. I have ridden a 12R with a aftermarket basket. The clutch pull is a little stiffer, but overall, there really wasn't any reason for me to switch to one.
For those that have experienced the "exploding baskets", their warranty usually covered it's replacement. Still, unless you start hangin' out at the local dragstrip, this is a "non-issue".
·Shift shaft diameter increased for better feel
I can't imagine what benefit this would provide. I think it's just some "cool sounding filler" for the sales brochures.
Digital Ignition
·Ignition mapping altered to enhance low and mid-range power
·Independent timing control for each cylinder based on data from several engine and atmospheric sensors
·Stick-type ignition coils are compact and lightweight
Again, Most of this isn't new. The aspect of altering the mapping is kinda moot anyway. That is, unless you do not change the exhaust system.
Almost everyone that got a 12R, purchased an aftermarket exhaust system. Just like any other bike, if you change the exhaust system, it's best to install a free flowing air filter (i.e. K&N).
Now, in the case of carburetor bikes, you'd also need to rejet the carbs. This, of course, isn't possible on fuel injected bikes (like the 12R).
To accomplish the same thing as rejetting requires either a Power Commander from Dyno Jet or a Yosh box from Yoshimura. The small black box in the tail section of my bike is a Dyno Jet PCIII. It hooks up to a laptop and you can alter the fuel delivery in over 250 different cells that relate to the RPMs and throttle opening position.
Dyno Jet has come out with a PCIIIR that not only allows adjustment of the fuel delivery, but also allows variable ignition timing. The Yosh box has many more features, but costs a lot more, has fewer available maps for non Yoshimura pipes.
Even with a stock pipe, the OEM fuel and ignition maps are far from optimum. It's not that they are bad, but they can be improved upon. IMHO, the PCIIIR is the best route to go. It's MSRP is a little under $400. As far as pipes go, Muzzy and Akrapovic are the most popular. The Akros are "slightly" better (alway up for debate), but cost more too.
Redesigned Fuel Pump/Oil Pump
·Fuel pump regulator mounts on the pump body, eliminating a return line for easier maintenance
I'm not sure exactly what this is all about. Some of the '00 models were recalled due to a cracking of a vent tube that was inside the tank. The tank was redesigned and wasn't a problem for the '01 models.
The thing is "ease of maintenance" for who? I've had my bike torn down on numerous occcasions and I don't see how this would make it the least bit easier. IMHO, more brochure fluff.
·Increased oil pump volume via a wider rotor
As I said before, the only oil flow issue is with the clutch basket. No other oil related oil flow problems have been reported (with the exception of spun bearings after a wreck) and I can use my sources of well over 1000 12R owners to back this up.
Revised Steering Geometry
·Steering angle increased to maintain proper rake when suspension is compressed
This is the MAIN reason why I would NOT take a '02 12R, even if it was given to me. They increased the rake from 23.5° to 25°. The benefit of this would be greater stability and higher speeds. The drawback would be a much slower response to steering input and a overall heavier feel when it comes to the bike's handling.
The interesting aspect is that it's rumored the the trail measurement has NOT changed from last year. Since rake and trail are equally affected by changes in the other, this is puzzling. The trail measurement also has an affect on steering response. The jury is still out on this one.
All the same, even if the trail has not change, the difference in the rake angle will be enough to "steer" me away from this bike.
·Steering head bearings are the same size for a more planted feel
I'm still trying to figure out what the hell they mean by this. My belief? More "brochure fluff".
Redesigned Ram Air Intake
·New ram-air duct improves aerodynamic efficiency and increases intake area by 30 percent
·Incorporates ribs to improve ram-air effect at the sides and offset wind shear from cross breezes
This is probably one of the best improvements, performance wise, of the new model. The larger intake could be good for 3 to 5 additional HP. The thing is, you don't have to be doing 100 (or 150) for it to be effective. KHI's aircraft division has one of the most advanced wind tunnel
facilities in the world.
KHI's ram induction designs on sportbikes have been proven to create a positive airbox pressure at speeds substantially lower then any other manufacturer. In earlier tests, the 7R could build up a positive airbox pressure as low as 50~60 mph. The 12R wasn't available for that test, but I can assure you, being KHI's flagship, it's ram air induction is as good or better then that of the 7R's.
There is an aftermarket carbon fiber "snorkel" available that is larger then the OEM version. It's just that the gain vs. cost makes it a debatable purchase. KHI has just decided to address this while they were redesigning the front cowl. All the same, with the 187 mph restrictions, it almost makes it a moot point.
Redesigned Aerodynamic Cowling
·Improves aerodynamics with a one-point drag coefficient reduction
Whoopee! One whole point! Since a motorcycle has a drag coefficient that's almost equal to a city bus (REALLY!) this is kind of a "non-issue". That is unless your seeking speeds above 180. Oops! I forgot. These '02 models are restricted to 187! My bad!
·Wider design and high bubble screen provide extra rider wind protection
A Zero Gravity Double Bubble windscreen does the same, if not better. The 12R is already known for excellent wind protection. KHI has just tried to improve on this. The Double Bubble still looks better.
·Small, triangular mirrors are mounted lower to help improve aerodynamics
As far as this being an aerodynamics issue, folks doing high speed runs remove them completely. This is more of a well needed cosmetic fix and probably where the majority of that "one point" reduction in drag came from.
·Cover near the front brake lever reduces turbulence behind the windscreen
Yeah, what ever.
43mm Inverted Front Fork
·Fully adjustable spring preload, compression and rebound damping
·Stiffer settings to prevent front-end dive under braking
·New stepless damping adjuster with check valve instead of needle valve for improved damping
The front suspension is known for being a tad soft. That's why most folks (including myself) "crank up" the settings to just about the stiffest settings.
Bottom-Link UNI-TRAK® Rear Suspension
·Fully adjustable shock that's shorter and has a softer spring
·New stepless damping adjuster with check valve instead of needle valve for improved damping
·Swingarm pivot lowered to weight the front wheel
·Swingarm equipped with new extruded-aluminum cross brace that's lighter and moved forward
SOFTER spring? That's about the LAST thing that the 12R needed. If anything, it needs a stiffer spring. The shorter shock might compensate for this, but I see it more of a necessary change for the slight relocation of the swingarm.
Details
·Lowered handlebars for a more planted feel
This would be something I'd love. The thing is, the majority of folks have been RAISING, not lowering their handlebars. A very pricey proposition considering that the bar brackets are cast as one piece with the top triple clamp. I doubt if the '02 triple clamp will be interchangeable with older models.
·Increased wheelbase
REAL BAD MOVE! Like the increase of the rake angle, this will improve the bike's overall stability. All at the expense of it's precise handling.
·New friction-reducing sealant on the front brake caliper pistons improves brake feel
More brochure fluff. Rumor has it that KHI will be switching to a four piston caliper instead of it's current six piston version. I could care less about the "brake feel" when the IMPORTANT aspect is "brake FUNCTION"! This is why most 12R owners have switched to braided lines and why I have pesonally switched to a larger master cylinder.
·Three-piece lower fairing with solid center insert improves aesthetics
Amen! Actually, it makes maintenance requiring the remove of all the lower fairings easier. Something the average owner would never have to worry about.
·Shorter, sportier front fender
Since the original design of the bike was for speeds in excess of 200 mph, the front fender played an important part of that design. Since the voluntary 300 kph (187 mph) restriction, that fender is no longer needed. The new fender does look nicer.
SOME THINGS NOT MENTIONED
The '02 has two smaller fans on the radiator, instead of the one large fan that's on the '00 & '01. Some who drag race or spend a lot of time in stop and go traffic (i.e. L.A., Dallas, Chicago, etc.) have complained about the bike getting hot. Over heating has never been a problem. Just
getting hot in certain circumstances. Where and how I ride, this has NEVER been an issue.
Red Elk's Bottom Line
Though it's appearance is nicer then the earlier models, the changes to the steering, wheelbase and crankshaft weight is all the exact opposite of what I personally would want from such a bike. It alone, would be enough for me to not even consider the '02 12R as a possible purchase.
Having done so many things to REDUCE my wheelbase and rake & trail, increasing these numbers start to put it in the "Busa" catagory (instead of the 9R) when it comes to the 12R's backroad handling. This WAS one if it's strongest selling points.
Now with that changed and with the 187 mph restriction, it makes the '02 just another fast cruiser with side fairings. It's more like a updated ZX11 and hardly deserves the "R" to be still attached to it's name.
If anything, the '02 ZX-12R IS MY FATHER'S 12R!
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
|
horse
Parking Attendant
Posts: 15
|
posted January 20, 2002 04:50 PM
Sounds More Like your Mothers ZX12 :)
Okay -- now the 2001 appears a Good Buy for $9100??? Last Question -- with Normal Driving
the ZX12 2000/2001 does Not Have Oil Delivery Problems in the engine, but the clutch
can have starvation?
Horse......good responses.
|
redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
|
posted January 20, 2002 05:18 PM
Edited By: redelk on 20 Jan 2002 17:24
Hey dude!
I hope I didn't sound like I was raggin' on ya (though I probably did)! It wasn't really directed towards you. It's just that the "steering changes" got me all whacked out. It doesn't really make sense to me that KHI would take some of the best aspects of the 12R (steering and the engine's free rev'ing nature)and "de-tune" them BOTH!
I suggested to my friend to get the '01 since the majority of us will not see the business side of 180 (actual, not according to the bike's speedo). The best I've done is 169.7 (actual - about 185 on the bike's speedo), but I'm a certified wuss!
I also believe the term "oil starvation" is a tad harsh. That is BY NO MEANS to suggest that those that have experienced spun bearings are talkin' BS. No, not at all. It's just that one needs to closely examine the circumstances in which this problem has occured.
I'm also not suggesting that they were "abusing" their bikes. From what all of them have said about what they had done, it should not have happened. Still, big bore kits, drag racing and accidents do seem to be a common thread in many (not all) of these problems.
Since I don't have a big bore kit, I don't drag race (my reaction times would be laughable) and I hope I don't have an accident... the most common precursers to this promble doesn't apply to me. That's not to say it couldn't happen to me, it's just that after more than 28K miles on my '00 12R, it hasn't yet.
Though KHI has addressed the oil/clutch issue, no one can be sure if they have effectively addressed the issue concerning the bearings. Natually, they wouldn't even admit such a problem even exsisted with previous models, if it did.
All the same, after 28K miles, two track days (getting my road racing license and a open track day), I have not had any clutch related problems. IMHO, most of the clucth problems have been related to hard launches. This is not to say this should be expected, because it shouldn't. It's just that I don't do hard launches and it hasn't be a problem for ME (and I'm just speaking for myself).
All the same, the MAJOR changes in the 12R handling package (and I think most of us here would not have to ride an '02 to realize that there have been changes with those kind of numbers) would be enough for me to "take a chance" with the oil issue on the earlier models.
For the type of riding I do, the "anal" approach I have towards upkeep and having an extended warranty... I really don't think I'm taking that much of a chance. Of course, that's just my opinion. It's not like I'm any kind of expert on such. I'm just some nut with a keyboard, no life and a 12R!
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
|
horse
Parking Attendant
Posts: 15
|
posted January 20, 2002 05:27 PM
Thanks for the "Vitality" of your Answers....no harm taken....is $9100 a
good price for a 2001? Iam looking in the Carolinas.
(horse@janrix.com)
Horse
|
redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
|
posted January 20, 2002 05:50 PM
That's always debatable
I'm one of those idiots that paid $11,700 for my '00! I did get a REAL GOOD trade in value for my old '97 7R, but even after that, it was still a LOT higher then $9100. Given a chance to do it over again, all I can say is... I'd do it in a heartbeat! Before the '01 model came out, some places were selling '00 models for $8900. That was about the lowest I ever heard.
Personally, $9100 sounds like a fair price, but it would be nice if the dealer threw in an extended warranty. I can't remember what my friend paid for his '01 Silver, but I'm guessing it was somewhere around $9500 with a 3 year extension on the warranty a they threw in a Pit Bull rear stand with spools.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
|
|
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC