Ra12r
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posted May 22, 2004 05:52 AM
Do Dyno's Kill Engines.....
I would like to ask the question....Do Dyno's Kill Engines?!?!
I have my own personal opinion as stated below to a quote made by a fellow board member.
quote:
(Brake Dyno's don't hurt your engine......Load is Load.)
Reply:
Why don't you tell that to the Truck driver's. They could just use their Ford 150's to pull anything. We wouldn't need a "BIGGER TRUCK" with a "BIGGER MOTOR" with a "TOWING PACKAGE" if load didn't effect things. The point is LOAD will break your equipment, if your equipment is not designed to handle the load.
Bikes will run for thousands of miles with NO ISSUES. But, on a dyno, they blow up REGULARLY because why.........??? The oiling system changes when you put your bike on a dyno???
A person can do roll-ons all day and night for weeks and months and it will NOT do anything but burn gas. But make any bike work an un-natural force (IE: the wheel drum and then a brake) it puts way too much resistance for the design of the machine. The resistance for acceleration of a bike with rider, is not even close to the resistance created by the drum.
His bike didn't blow-up at the track, it blew up on the dyno like thousands of other bikes. It ran fine, and then He decided to "dyno tune". The dyno KILLED the motor!
Even if it went 160 pulls on a dyno, that is how many miles?? Seeing that you can hit the rev limiter in just a matter of feet or at least 4 times in a 1/4 mile. That comes out to about 16 pulls = 1 mile. That would be 10 miles of use on your motor. So you tell me,,,,,Do Dyno's KILL engines???
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TurboBlew
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posted May 22, 2004 06:02 AM
Short answer.....NO. Dynos dont kill anything... they are tools. Operators on the other hand.....
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swft
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posted May 22, 2004 06:13 AM
Zactly!
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psycho1122
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posted May 22, 2004 09:11 AM
This is the same guy who "machines" his passages to find a "cooling" problem. 
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Ra12r
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posted May 22, 2004 10:07 AM
Turbo, then why dont ALL the OPERATORS (ie: Riders) kill their motors in the first few days or weeks of riding. Most riders ride there bike "Aggressive". But not any more aggressive than twisting the throttle wide open in 2th-5th gears on an open stretch of road and shifting at 11,500 rpm in several gears. However we can do this for thousands of miles.
Swft, this is about the principle of what is happening concerning the extreme occurance of Engine failures on dyno's.
I will make a bold statement,,,,,ALL engines will fail with less than 50 dyno miles.
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johnnycheese
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posted May 22, 2004 10:14 AM
quote:
Turbo, then why dont ALL the OPERATORS (ie: Riders) kill their motors in the first few days or weeks of riding. Most riders ride there bike "Aggressive". But not any more aggressive than twisting the throttle wide open in 2th-5th gears on an open stretch of road and shifting at 11,500 rpm in several gears. However we can do this for thousands of miles.
Swft, this is about the principle of what is happening concerning the extreme occurance of Engine failures on dyno's.
I will make a bold statement,,,,,ALL engines will fail with less than 50 dyno miles.
Am I will say this I have a 4.5 year old 1397 Busa with no less than 175 pulls on it still running and only adjust the valves once in those years
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TurboBlew
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posted May 22, 2004 11:46 AM
There have be numerous reported occurances of engine failures from anyone of the OEMs within an initial breakin period.
Matter of fact, there was a R1 that failed within 10miles.
Our local dyno has seen a few engine failures.... but they were directly attributed to poor assembly practices or plain incompentence by the builders of these bikes, NOT the dyno itself.
However, if you get some pimple faced doofus operator who thinks he's making a record pass on every dyno run, complete with full tuck and accentuated body movements...
its time to locate a competant operator.
Just having the tool is 1/3 the battle.... knowing how to use it is another problem entirely. Why do you think DJ offers certification and instruction for these machines?
quote:
Turbo, then why dont ALL the OPERATORS (ie: Riders) kill their motors in the first few days or weeks of riding. Most riders ride there bike "Aggressive". But not any more aggressive than twisting the throttle wide open in 2th-5th gears on an open stretch of road and shifting at 11,500 rpm in several gears.....
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k bryant
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posted May 22, 2004 11:50 AM
I have an F4I dyno mule. It now has over 400 dyno runs, 4458 street miles, 3 track days. The engine makes within 1 hp (yes, 1 hp) of what it did when it had 300 miles on it in year 2000 when it first ran on the dyno .
I've never even pulled the valve cover to check the valves.
Inertia Dyno's when properly used, do no harm whatsoever.
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worm~hole
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posted May 22, 2004 12:06 PM
 Edited By: worm~hole on 22 May 2004 13:07
quote:
I will make a bold statement,,,,,ALL engines will fail with less than 50 dyno miles.
...hey Ra-dudeguy!...yer' not related to the Colonel-dudeguy, are ya'? 
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frEEk
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posted May 22, 2004 01:07 PM
tho i can't see any reason why a dyno would harm an engine when used properly (the "Load is load" argument), i do seem to hear about engines letter go on the dyno quite often. is this just an allusion (there seem to be more than there are), is it strictly bad operators slamming the bikes into the limiters, or something else?
ra12r, as to the truck towing point, if i'm not mistaken don't towing packages usually just add bits for better cooling? like a tranny cooler etc? if so, this would make some sense in that repeated runs on a dyno will usually get an engine real hot since the usually isnt much airflow. but this would be operator error for not allowing the engine to cool and dyno setup error for not supplying cool fresh air an plenty of fans to blow it onto the rad.
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ZX12Girl
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posted May 22, 2004 07:36 PM
I agree with Turboblew. Operators kill engines. A dyno run is not doing anything different than my 1/4 mile run. Flogging it all the way to just before redline.
Except the bike is not getting the air flow....So if the dyno operator does not allow the colling time....Kaboom could be in the future...... (or) they could tag the limiter.
My bike has seen way too many 1/4 mile runs (guessing 450++) and probably at least 50 dyno pulls (by a certified dynojet tech) over the last few years...No Issues...No Kaboom motor...
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ZX12Girl
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posted May 22, 2004 07:43 PM
Edited By: ZX12Girl on 22 May 2004 20:51
Also you do have many different type of motorcycle operators.
- The guy that likes to do-it-himself but has NO clue as to how...does it anyway.
- The guy that just put a 100hp dry shot on the bike.
- The inexperienced rider who tags the rev limiter all the time.
- The builder the did not complete something correctly.
- The dyno operator that loves to see the pipes glowing red.
- The guy that just toasted 4 sets of clutches with-out changing the oil or checking the screens.
- The dumb but that forgot to add oil to his bike.
- The guy that got a map from a pal and ran the mess out of his bike....not realizing that it was starving for fuel....abd then hits the button....
- The list goes on....
It would be hard to pin point all of this to the dyno.
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slug
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posted May 22, 2004 08:44 PM
2 points
one: that r1 with '10 miles' the pictures don't make sense ;P WAY too much carbon buildup on those '10 mile' pistons....doesn't fit with the story 100 miles *perhaps* it may get that built up. 10, don't buy it
as for the dyno run
the dyno will not work an engine ANY harder than the engine CAN work. period.
the engine is not going to make more power on a dyno than anywhere else. if the engine is designed for 160 HP and MAKES 160 HP, it matters not whether it is on the dyno or on the road somewhere at 160mph. the only difference being is that the drag is aerodynamic on the road, and is mechanically applied to the drum on the dyno. if the engine doesn't make enough power to overcome the drag on it, (stiff headwind?)the bike will slow down. thus slowing engine down to new equilibrium where the drag is overcome by the engine's torque
if the engine doesn't make enough power to overcome the drag of the drum at a certain speed, the drum will slow, and the engine will as well, again reaching equilibrium at a point where, again,engine torque output can sustain the required power demand.
NOW the problem arises as someone else pointed out of cooling. and HERE is what your killer most likely is. loading an engine and making it put full power down is the same regardless of the load applied. but if you fail to cool it properly FOR that power output, you'll break it.
your F150 towing semi trailers analogy is fallacious, as the F150 doesn't MAKE enough power to move that load. on the same token, if you run your F50 at full power with no cooling, it too will surrender into a messy pile of spare parts.
accelerating at full throttle, your bike only accelerates so quickly. at THAT time at full throttle, that engine is making full power. it cannot make more. that's the machine's limit
the only time that you can overload an engine and put excessive strain on the components is if you load it to the point the engine stops turning. making an engine stop running due to excessive load IS a bit rough on the engine. but dyno properly operated shouldn't ever achieve that level of load. and if it does, it is not the dyno, but the operator who is to blame.
check this chart out:
note that they don't even start logging data until 3000 rpm, operator let clutch out, spin machine up to 3k then go with the full throttle run. at no point is this ANY harder on the engine than me going out to the highway and doing same thing.
unless you have found the magical dyno that causes engines to suddenly make more power than they CAN make...but only attached to that same magical dyno
  
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Zaphod Breeblebox
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posted May 24, 2004 10:00 AM
quote:
Why don't you tell that to the Truck driver's. They could just use their Ford 150's to pull anything. We wouldn't need a "BIGGER TRUCK" with a "BIGGER MOTOR" with a "TOWING PACKAGE" if load didn't effect things. The point is LOAD will break your equipment, if your equipment is not designed to handle the load.
Give that F150 the right transmission & differential, and a strong enough frame, etc, and the engine itself will pull an incredible amount of mass. Just not very quickly!
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Otis
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posted May 24, 2004 10:07 AM
Well said slug, well said. Hey, I thought we were going to see you at the Gap last week?
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dougmeyer
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posted May 24, 2004 12:13 PM
Couldn't have said it better myself, Slug.
Bottom line is:
Dynos don't kill engines, people kill engines....
Doug
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Ra12r
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posted May 24, 2004 12:44 PM
I have read several "good" arguements for "The dyno is innocent". I must admitt that Slug probably has the best written response.
I realize that most folks "believe" in a dyno's lack of liability where engine failure is concerned. However, if Slug's arguement is correct, then there is also NO arguement for the operator MAKING a dyno kill a motor. Cause how can an operator make the bike make MORE HP than it can make??
Personally, I also do not believe that the Rev limiter kills the motor instead of the dyno. The rev limiter simply cuts the ignition to limit the amount of rev and actually slows the motor down. So to me blaming the Rev limiter for dropped valves and spun bearings is also not accurate. Valves do not float at the Rev limit, they float a few thousand rpm's AFTER the limit if at all. 600cc have a limit at 14,000 plus so the mechanics is not much different as far as springs tension and clearances and they rev with no issues OEM.
However, would someone.....I will pick on Swft, JCheese, ARH and KCadby(all I can remember who "know" how to operate a dyno) would you guys please reply with what the most common egine failure (which parts) on a dyno?
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frEEk
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posted May 24, 2004 02:05 PM
ra12r, i think slug included an explanation of how a dyno operator can kill an engine: cooling. don't know how or if that relates to dropping valves tho.
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MadMike
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posted May 24, 2004 02:19 PM
I am going to be bearings. on the dyno... ? maybe not.
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johnnycheese
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posted May 24, 2004 03:31 PM
pistons and Head gaskets on mine all build by owner. Entropy let a valve go but I feel that was Kawi's fault due to I have seen the same valve do the same thing on a bone stocker riding on the street.
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Ra12r
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posted May 24, 2004 06:48 PM
Cooling eh........well unless the motor is "boiling over" and the temp gauge is flashing, then motor is not too hot. Hot oil is still slippery too. Plus the oil isn't any hotter than driving in traffic in the southern heat
I think Entropy's valve was related to lift and bucket diameter...(my opinion based on others with .415 lift).
We should really discuss this topic, because I believe there is an overwhelming number of engines that die while on the dyno. When folks spend several thousands of dollars to build a motor and it runs great on the street and on the track. So to be "smart" they go to a dyno for a simple run and while "checking" A/F ratios on a dyno their bike dies after driving fine for several thousand miles on the street and track, it is NOT a coincidence!
I believe the big thing a dyno does is decrease the internal tolerances due to the "un-natural" stress and that results in rod bearing failure in particular. People please don't say that their is a design flaw, cause that would mean every model has a design flaw.
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k bryant
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posted May 24, 2004 08:33 PM
What is your definition of "overwhelming"? I've done 1000's & 1000's & 1000's of dyno runs and lost one (1) engine in 19 years. That engine was suspect to begin with and we ended up making a real mess of it.... Would like to help on this topic, but really don't understand the concept or basis of your argument?
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DB
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posted May 24, 2004 09:15 PM
sounds like we just want to argue for arguements sake
quote:
Ra12r
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frEEk
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posted May 24, 2004 10:51 PM
quote:
Cooling eh........well unless the motor is "boiling over" and the temp gauge is flashing, then motor is not too hot. Hot oil is still slippery too. Plus the oil isn't any hotter than driving in traffic in the southern heat
yes, but what else are you doing in traffic? idling. not whacking er wide open and running her thru the rev range.
quote:
We should really discuss this topic, because I believe there is an overwhelming number of engines that die while on the dyno. When folks spend several thousands of dollars to build a motor and it runs great on the street and on the track. So to be "smart" they go to a dyno for a simple run and while "checking" A/F ratios on a dyno their bike dies after driving fine for several thousand miles on the street and track, it is NOT a coincidence!
i agree it's not a coincidence, but i dont think it has to do with dyno design either. if you are making a map for a bike for example, u'r continuously running the bike wide open thru the rev range. that's pretty similar to running at the drag strip over and over and over. without the cooling assistance of the wind and especially if u dont allow for much time between dyno runs (like u normally have between drag runs), it's gonna heat up big time. that's the only reason my (inexperienced mind u) mind can think of. i'll admit there is a perception of bikes breaking alot on dynos, but maybe it's a false perception to it's just tied to bad dyno operation. that would be my best guesses.
quote:
I believe the big thing a dyno does is decrease the internal tolerances due to the "un-natural" stress and that results in rod bearing failure in particular.
what "un-natural" stress? the rear wheel is turning a drum, which is exactly what's happening normally except the drum is much much bigger (the earth). i know i'm simplifying it a bit, but i just dont see where the unnatural force comes into play.
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Ra12r
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posted May 25, 2004 06:44 AM
Thanks DB for you input. When you have a bike to die and it doesn't make sense, then maybe you will want to talk about it.
Personally, challenging status quo also is a lonely journey. My questions and hypothosis may be uncomfortable, but it does address an issue within the biking community. Especially those that go beyond the OEM. I understand the dyno is a great tool. But that does not mean that the tool doesn't has some drawbacks.
Kbryant, was the "suspect engine" blowing up prior to the dyno? If yes, how long was the "engine suspect"? Why didn't it blow up before the dyno?? If the engine was suspect, why did you put it on the dyno? However, your conclusion was not the dyno but something else even though the motor was "good enough" to dyno so you thought and preceeded. I am still proposing using your example that the dyno is the cause for the bearing going out at "THAT" instance. No dyno run,,,,,,No blown motor.
If dyno's do not exert an extreme un-natural force then we should "NEVER" see good running motors die while being A/F ratio mapped. Because with the truth being told, those same bikes are also ridden aggressively on the street. There is way more roll-ons to redline prior to mapping than the few dyno runs. Example: How many passes did 1bad12R make running in the 8's and 5's and then street miles up to 1000. I would say that riding like that, if it survived 100 miles then there were NO INTERNAL ISSUES. (I lost an engine in 8 passes with issues, and that was long.) So then at 1000 miles and NO MPH loss at the track, the bike immediately losses a bearing on the dyno.............How can anyone say that something wasn't different???
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