fish_antlers
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posted October 02, 2014 07:46 AM
The streetable version will be the way to go. Not only will it have the guts of the 300hp under the hood, but it will have the lights and dot business to actually ride it somewhere. To top it off my bet is that most of the farkles will get the chop so that  business should be gone. Best of both worlds - hackable to deliver ultimate power - top heavy electronically so you can actually control the thing for the 99% of the time you don't want 300hp.
Completely agree with gunner.
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tuusinii
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posted October 02, 2014 10:08 AM
I think that that placement is the best place for compressor for street bike: you get the shortest possible distance between compressor and inlet (there is still some lag even if it's not turbo) and you get better mass centralazion with that place. Those are the things that matter most so you can get a good rideability. Bikes make allready so much power that the problem is how to handle it even without charging.
And if it would be in front it would be near exhaust pipes that are really hot. And how would you get the force to turn that turbine if it would be in front? It would also compromise the exhaust design.
About the swingarm - it can only be for the looks... And I don't like it. To me it seems like the R version was done only for marketing: 300hp looks nice and then you can probably bolt the parts to the street version to have the same power...
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extremelean
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posted October 02, 2014 10:28 AM
For those of you that may not have already read this...credit to Cycle World magazine.
Supercharging—compressing air before delivering it to the engine intakes—raises the temperature of that air. When Kawasaki supercharged the 1500cc ZX-14-based engine of its Ultra 300X watercraft, the company used a blower similar to those seen atop every Top Fuel drag car. Such Roots blowers are effective across an engine’s rpm range but they generate a lot of heat. Pushing hot air into an engine pushes its combustion toward detonation, the destructive abnormal combustion that blasts metal off of cylinder heads and pistons. That was no problem on the watercraft, which have unlimited cold water available for operation of a charge air cooler, or “intercooler” (people like the term, but it’s actually a misnomer. On wartime aircraft piston engines, multi-stage supercharging systems were common, and a cooler placed between stages was therefore called an intercooler. When there is only one stage of supercharging, engineers prefer to call it a “charge air cooler”).
Where would you put an intercooler on a bike? And how would you duct a high volume of cooling air into and out of it?
Kawasaki therefore chose the most efficient of all blower types, a centrifugal supercharger. The more efficient the blower, the less it heats the air it compresses (isn’t that almost always where wasted energy goes, into heat?). In a centrifugal blower, a rotating disc carrying tapered radial vanes on one or both of its faces rotates at high speed. Air entering along the axis is flung outward by the vanes and is accelerated to very high speed, typically somewhat more than the speed of sound, which is 1087 feet/second at sea level). Air flung from the vanes enters a surrounding scroll-shaped passage in which velocity energy becomes pressure energy. The special capabilities of Kawasaki Heavy Industries’ Gas Turbine and Machinery Co. were called upon in the design of this supercharger. Yes, Kawasaki produces both jet engines and electricity-generating turbines.
FEEL THE HEAT
A Kawasaki ZX-10R superbike engine of 998cc displacement takes in roughly 7,000 liters of air per minute. But if a compressor forces twice that volume of air into it, its horsepower will double. A limit is set to this process by heat. As the combustion flame spreads from the spark plug, expansion of hot combustion gas compresses the unburned charge remaining. As unburned charge is heated by this compression, pre-flame chemical reactions within it accelerate. If these reactions go far enough, bits of unburned charge go off before the flame front reaches them, generating shock waves of sonic-speed combustion that make the noise we call “combustion knock,” or detonation. The destructive effects of detonation set limits to our power hunger. Typically, compression ratios of supercharged engines are lower than those of unsupercharged engines to subject the fresh charge to less heating, thereby staving off detonation. Supercharged aircraft engines of WW II typically had compression ratios around 7:1, while engines of F1’s first turbo era ran at about 9.5:1. Splitting the difference, we get about 8.25:1.
Won’t this lowered compression reduce engine torque? You bet, but maybe around-town performance is unimportant for a track-only bike. Or this may further support the idea that Kawasaki has torque-flattening technologies we have yet to see.
Many of us have seen the Kawasaki patent drawings and text available on the Internet. They show the supercharger drive packaged into the space behind the cylinder block of a transverse in-line engine. Gear teeth cut into one of the engine’s flywheels turn a jackshaft behind the cylinder block. That shaft in turn drives a shaft above it, ending in a compact planetary step-up drive just before the centrifugal impeller itself. The impeller is small, as the very similar-in-concept impeller from one of my R-4360 aircraft engines has a diameter of only 14 inches (4360 cubic inches, by the way, is 71 times the displacement of a ZX-10R). Compressed air output from the blower’s scroll housing flows upward, pressurizing the intake airbox above it (which is presumably something more robust than the usual Samsonite-looking ABS structure). In Cosworth fashion, we can expect normal-looking throttle bodies and bellmouth intakes, projecting up into the box from the engine’s cylinder head. Cosworth engineer Keith Duckworth once said that a supercharged engine is just a normal engine operating at the bottom of a really deep mine (where air pressure is higher).
SLOWING DOWN THE BLOWER
Although patents are written as broadly as possible, what we can see on the web shows a dog-shifted two-speed drive to the supercharger shaft. Why? This might be because the output of a centrifugal blower increases as the square of rpm. Thus, if the blower was delivering a modest 5 psi of boost (that’s 5 psi above atmospheric) at 6,000 rpm, it would be trying to deliver 20 psi boost at 12,000.
Why not just go with that? One problem: The resulting torque curve would rise so steeply that it would make the bike unrideable. One way to change that is to run the supercharger on a high ratio at lower engine rpm, and then at some point shift to a lower ratio to limit top-end torque to something usable. Best of all would be a continuously variable supercharger drive that could keep boost constant for improved rideability.
Also seen in one of Kawasaki’s teaser videos is an audio track of the Ninja H2R accelerating with soprano whine through the gears, emitting little squeaks at each shift. This is the sound of the airbox pressure relief valve, venting excess pressure. The rpm sounds high, so I’m sure those of you with hand-held oscilloscopes have displayed a pressure trace to reveal the rpm (In 2007, at the first test of the then-new 800cc MotoGP bikes at Valencia, a knot of Yamaha techs had an oscilloscope down at the far end of the pit straight, harvesting the free sonic information).
Why not just turbocharge a ZX-10R? Same objection: Turbo power is very hard to make rideable, which makes it even more certain that Kawasaki has one or more torque-flattening technologies in the H2R. And another thing: We know some of the measures Kawasaki has had to take to make ZX10-R-based Superbikes reliable at 220 horsepower. But with 36 percent more power, and as a product offered to the public, the H2R must have received major beefings-up in all departments.
Go here to read the whole article.... http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/09/30/2015-kawasaki-ninja-h2r-supercharged-sportbike-unveiled-at-intermot-2014-motorcycle-show/
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DRB
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posted October 02, 2014 10:45 AM
And as Gunner explains...... there's no way the street version has 300 or 250 rear wheel horsepower....... we'll be lucky to see a real wheel HP at 200. But that's just my opinion........
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fish_antlers
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posted October 02, 2014 10:49 AM
so you just totally avoided explaining yourself.
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Gunner
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posted October 02, 2014 10:52 AM
quote:
Completely agree with gunner.
I think I just felt my heart flutter... LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By no means an I bashing this bike I'm just pointing out the obvious... To be honest I HATED the looks of my Gen 1 10R when I bought the thing only to later have it become my all time favorite in the looks department so until one of these gets within eye shot who can say which has also already been stated by several. The bike has huge potential without doubt even if I don't agree with all the styling departments ideas for cool. I would have much rather seen them go to BST and fit the thing with Carbon rims as OEM top of the line and Ohlins forks and shock any day of the week as a single sided swingarm. I really hope and pray it's IMPOSSIBLE for the bike to be fitted with a 20 over swingarm and slammed to the dirt AKA Rickey Racer style. Clearly this bike has been designed for those of us that's not afraid to stuff it into a corner while sliding both tires in a controlled manor. Let the slammed and stretched group keep the 14R's for that kind of stuff because doing that to this bike would be like taking a Thoroughbred Race Horse and hitching it up to a PLOW! Only an idiot would do such a thing. Sure there's fields that need plowed but there's also better choices for that why ruin something that is a purpose built as this bike clearly is. Although with as much respect as I have for Brock and I do respect him I swear one of the first things he had to say was it looks like it's possible to bolt on a long swingarm!!!!! BROCK ------------------> NO!!!!! It's just WRONG!!
Personally I want the R model and add lights to it myself. I want that factory race pipe it has WITHOUT all the pollution dog shit the street pipe will have to carry along with all the carbon. After paying for having molds built to produce all the 12R body panels from real carbon whatever they charge for the stuff seems fair to me and I have no idea what they are charging I just know going it alone for that kind of deal isn't cheap or fast to get done. But trick knows no bounds when it comes to doing stuff correctly. The 10R was a factory built version of the bike I had spent over 20 years building at home with various degrees of success over the years and it even had a warranty! This new H2R is the next level up and represents the 12R I've been building for the last 4 years that's still going through the final stages before final assembly and the H2 will have a warranty and all the trick shit done right down to the real carbon fiber body panels.. All I can see it needs is for someone to design and produce an air to water intercooler that fits inside that airbox with a heat exchanger mounted up front of the radiator.. With boost comes heat and with heat comes detonation. Both are killers of motors and need controlled. Learning to control one's self when operating said boosted engine comes from age and broken motors over the years. I suspect Kawasaki will make hacking these ECU's very difficult at best for obvious reasons. Actually I'm looking at buying one of these for purposes of building parts to sell for it such as said intercooler.
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There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
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DRB
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posted October 02, 2014 11:02 AM
Gunner, I'm not slamming the H2 either........ in fact I wish I could afford it. My only point....... and Fish is not hearing it is that if the bike is limited to 186 mph then it will have nowhere near 300 or 250 HP at the rear wheel. He's just dense and always thinks he is right....... I guess we'll see when the actual H2 hits the streets
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Gunner
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posted October 02, 2014 11:18 AM
quote:
Where would you put an intercooler on a bike? And how would you duct a high volume of cooling air into and out of it?
You said a lot and I have limited to to answer it all but I'll help you with this one question. I goes inside that airbox and it has water running through it with a lower radiator (ie Heat exchanger) up front under the engine radiator. The tons of required air will be plentiful there. There's many more ways to skin a kat than just holding him down and starting at his tail. Air to liquid charge air coolers are much more efficient than air to air therefore require much less room inside the box to mount. There's several different styles of cores out there today one of which I already have on the drawing board for this application ever since seeing the first pictures 3 days ago. Massive surface area with near ZERO pressure drop in a very compact design.
As for the person above wanting to know how you would drive the blower up front and down low.... Do you not think Kawasaki couldn't have designed a new set of cases that provide a drive straight off the crank for that just like they did the set used here already? They start from clean sheets of paper they don't modify stuff like all the rest of us do. The header pipe issue wouldn't be an issue and as Extreme has pointed out as well as myself has pointed out the real enemy here is HEAT and DETONATION which go together like Ben & Jerry's on all forced induction packages.. If I were designing this from scratch like Kawasaki has done I'm thinking the blower placement could have been up front over top the exhaust ports in front of the exhaust cam below and behind the neck and driven from the side from the exhaust cam gear somehow. Enter the airbox from the front lower side just like the did the rear lower side and do away with the heat soak issues along with a much shorter air intake path... Look at above pictures where the body panels are off and the intake ducting is in place... There's room there.... There was a company called A&A that built a 10R supercharer kit that fitted the compressor there and drove it from the crank.. Kawasaki could have easily made a cam drive work for this and since they designed the blower in house they could have also made that fit nicely....
We can all redesign it all day long but the facts are it's built already and now all we can do is fix the over looked issues like the charge air cooler that's not there.. I'm looking at ways to profit from them not doing it myself. I own a shop full of equipment that pays the bills by building people trick stuff that isn't made yet or modifying something that is. It's what makes the world go round and round at least it is at my house..
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There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
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fish_antlers
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posted October 02, 2014 12:51 PM
 Edited By: fish_antlers on 2 Oct 2014 21:04
quote:
Gunner, I'm not slamming the H2 either........ in fact I wish I could afford it. My only point....... and Fish is not hearing it is that if the bike is limited to 186 mph then it will have nowhere near 300 or 250 HP at the rear wheel. He's just dense and always thinks he is right....... I guess we'll see when the actual H2 hits the streets
Again - explain what, if any, the correlation between the 186mph electronic limiter and horsepower is.
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DRB
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posted October 02, 2014 03:00 PM
Fish, we can wait and see what the actual production street bike puts out......... I'm not going around in circles with you. If the bike is limited to 186 mph and I say IF........ then it will not rear wheel dyno anywhere near 250 or 300 HP. If fact the Kawasaki press release says the 300 hp is only for closed circuit.
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DRB
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posted October 02, 2014 03:17 PM
8000 views and other than Fish and Freek only 5 people have commented........ I find that interesting :-)
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fish_antlers
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posted October 02, 2014 03:39 PM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 3 Oct 2014 00:00
Welcome to a site with something called "reach".
So basically you now admit you have no understanding of horsepower and its relationship to electronic speed limitation.
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Gunner
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posted October 02, 2014 04:50 PM
DRB there's about to be history made here because I'm going to have to agree with Fish on this one after he agreed with me already once today. Check your clocks because time just stood still.... It could have 500 Hp and still be limited to 188 Mph.. Once has nothing to do with the other. Now will it take 300 Hp to go 188 mph NO not even close to that but with the excess power it will pull your arms right out of their sockets getting there. Hopefully Kawasaki don't kill all the fun factor with a bunch of electronics but that's just hopeful wishing.. I would wish for it to be Generation 1 ZX10R style POWER !!! Still my all time favorite bike... In fact I'm in the process of buying myself a replacement one back for the one I sold like a dumb ass a few years back... Found a sweet 04 with only 4K miles that looks like new... I'm tickled !!
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There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
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frEEk
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ummm... yeah
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posted October 02, 2014 05:27 PM
DRB, i say this out of love, go edjemecat yourself on this issue. Unless you have some very odd unspoken definitions behind your statement, you are just plain wrong. Speed limiting doesn't limit power, it limits speed.
Fish, i don't HATE the single sided swingarm... it looks cool and all for one. but it strikes me an odd choice when you are apparently trying to make the most insane bike ever.
On the frame, i'm not bashing them, it just strikes me as odd again. Now I'm no chassis engineer so that don't mean much. Maybe this really is the best possible frame choice. What has worked for ducati for decades has nothing to do with that though. Bias-ply tires were the winning choice for decades too,
Gunner on the supercharger location, while I definitely get what you're saying, why would they care about sitting at street lights? The race bike ain't intended for that situation anyway. A street version is almost certainly gonna be detuned so heat won't be as much of an issue, and when you are in stop n go land, it isn't like you need max power. Also, it isn't on the exhaust side, and there looks to be maximized separation between the block and the housing, plus as we know a VERY open fairing. That thing is going to get a decent amount of airflow around the supercharger.
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Uncle Zed
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posted October 02, 2014 06:51 PM
Why are you guys think this thing is speed limited to 186 mph? This is not a street bike, it is for closed course use only! Do you think all those wings on the thing are just for cruising around town? I bet this thing will run at least 220 and maybe 230. Kawasaki has just flipped the whole world the fuckin bird and you guys are acting like a bunch of old women! I think it's butt ugly as hell but I'd give my left nut to ride one. It's probably got that hand of God feeling that no other bike out there could match!
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DRB
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posted October 02, 2014 07:41 PM
Zed, we're talking about the street version.
And yes, to everyone else...... you can have 300 HP and be electronically limited to 186. But as Gunner rightfully stated....... the 1st three gears would almost be useless with all that power and a short wheelbase. Kawasaki has already stated the street version will not have 300HP. My point is this.... and only this....... the street version will not have 300 or 250 hp........ especially if limited to 186 mph. If anyone thinks it will then they're out of their mind lol.
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
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posted October 02, 2014 09:03 PM
Don't think anyone has suggested it will have the full 300hp... though personally I don't think that options is completely off the table, I just think it is unlikely. Yes, of course that much power is useless at least for the first 3 gears, but 14R power is useless in the first 2 as well, and yet we still have it. Hell, even with slicks the H2R is almost certainly going to have the computer holding back the engine anywhere near WOT most of the time. But such is the reality of this particular error of the motorcycle (and for that matter many top end cars): we are much better at making power than we are at making traction. Hence why electronics have received so much attention. We get the electrons to control most of that wasted power to usable levels most of the time just so we can have that extra dose of mad power those rare moments when we can actually use them. But again, that isn't really a new concept. Bikes have been needlessly powerful for most circumstances for quite a while.
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DRB
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posted October 02, 2014 09:33 PM
This is the most excitement Kawasaki fans have had since 2004 :-)
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fish_antlers
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posted October 02, 2014 09:41 PM
What was the 14? Chopped liver?
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ZXLNT
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posted October 02, 2014 10:24 PM
quote:
But when you limit the 300 HP bike to only 186 mph then the bike isn't making 300 HP anymore. It may have the potential for 300 but isn't putting 300 to the rear tire. It's not rocket science lol
It does while its getting to 186mph and THATS what counts. Not how much horsepower it makes while "crusing" at 186mph..
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Gunner
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posted October 03, 2014 09:18 AM
quote:
Why are you guys think this thing is speed limited to 186 mph? This is not a street bike, it is for closed course use only! Do you think all those wings on the thing are just for cruising around town? I bet this thing will run at least 220 and maybe 230. Kawasaki has just flipped the whole world the fuckin bird and you guys are acting like a bunch of old women! I think it's butt ugly as hell but I'd give my left nut to ride one. It's probably got that hand of God feeling that no other bike out there could match!
WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT THIS BIKE......---------------------------> We are discussing the as yet unreleased H2 and speculating on it.....
TO BE CLEAR ------------------------> CRYSTAL CLEAR <----------------------------- I don't think for a second that the H2R is speed limited whatsoever in anyway why would it be it's a race bike only as released........ This is how shit get's twisted...
To answer freak about the compressor placement I'm also speaking about the street bike that we haven't seen yet.... Race bike won't be sitting at traffic light heat soaking.... Street bikes will be sitting there burning to the ground.. Since we can only assume they haven't developed two completely different engine packages the compressor placement will be in the same spot. I could be wrong but I'm a betting man I'll take that wager if anyone cares to lay one. My last FunnyBike turbo placement was in the same spot I discribed... Under the neck and out front of the exhaust cam. It blew back across the top of the cam cap into the intake.. If I were to ever decide to turbo a 12R it would also be there with the inlet to the airbox being located right behind the neck on the bottom UNLIKE what the rest of the world has done that has got in wrong now since 2000 and blew into the ram air inlet because it was there and easy to access. That creates the wrong kind of air flow within the box. You never want laminar air flow inside a turbo or supercharged airbox it creates favored cylinders and red headed step children cylinders as well. Turbulant air flow that evenly pressurizes the box is desired. FYI.. All that said they could have done a sweeter job on this one's placement.. Who pays 58, 68, 0r 88K for a top line racer that isn't outfitted with the best of the best top shelf parts? I love my Kawwasaki's and will always support them but they aren't the end all be all at suspension parts, wheels, or brakes... Yes they went with Brembo on the binders but where's the Ohlin's forks? Where's the top shelf wheels? Why does this so called race bike have a tail light and gear indicator WITH handlebar switch gear as used on street bikes? Race bikes have NONE of that garbage....
Kawasaki ran out mof time this is a combination of H2 and H2R parts tossed together in the 12th hour and called the H2R but I have a feeling it's really neither bike as they will be seen in final form... It's a part from this one and two parts from that one and GET THE DAMN THING TO THE SHOW NOW!
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fish_antlers
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posted October 03, 2014 09:21 AM
It will be unveiled at EICMA
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Gunner
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posted October 03, 2014 09:33 AM
quote:
Zed, we're talking about the street version.
And yes, to everyone else...... you can have 300 HP and be electronically limited to 186. But as Gunner rightfully stated....... the 1st three gears would almost be useless with all that power and a short wheelbase. Kawasaki has already stated the street version will not have 300HP. My point is this.... and only this....... the street version will not have 300 or 250 hp........ especially if limited to 186 mph. If anyone thinks it will then they're out of their mind lol.
One very interesting note on this point............. Look closely and you'll notice there's no secondary butterflies in the throttle bodies.... I also see a throttle cable stand so I'm wondering how Kawasaki will limit the power in the thing since they have used the secondary butterflies since 2004 for that purpose.. One would think drive by wire design but the cable stand says different unless that cable wheel only turns a rheostat that goes through the ECU before opening the throttle blades? Possible our Infinity M45 was that way and while it worked the DELAYED throttle response SUCKED MONKEY BALLS! So I'm certainly hoping this won't be the deal with the H2.. I'm OLD SCHOOL GIVE ME A CABLE AND LET MY RIGHT HAND DECIDE HOW MUCH POWER I CAN STAND! Again why I'm buying another Generation 1 10R..
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There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
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tuusinii
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posted October 03, 2014 10:01 AM
The throttle cabel doesn't seem to go the the butterflies as I said so it must be ride-by-wire. And I think that the compressor design was indeed desided for mass centralization and no intercooler because they can reach the power level they targeted without. So it makes it simpler, less weight and more importantly cheaper. It allready has more power than can be used on streets so the maximum power wasn't as important as other things.
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Gunner
Needs a life
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posted October 03, 2014 01:57 PM
quote:
The throttle cabel doesn't seem to go the the butterflies as I said so it must be ride-by-wire. .
I hope they do better at that type design than Infinity done. Sad if they didn't because that car felt totally disconnected from the driver input because of the lag between the drive input and the cars reaction. They actually sell add one boxes to speed up throttle response on drive by wire cars it's that bad in many cases and the bikes that have already gone there have had problems.. I DON'T WANT DRIVE BY WIRE! I want a cable PLEASE!! But without secondary butterflies there's no other way to allow the ECU to have control over power output and the secondary systems are far too easy to work around by simply removing the blades. Kawasaki had to make sure that couldn't happen with a motor with this much power output.
As far as picking the design apart that's what I do and how I've made a living for many years. Looking for ways to make things work better or run faster. except for a brief stint of 5 or so years building guns I've made a living in the motorsports industry for the last 25 years working in other people's shops but now I have my own shop and my own business so looking for ways to better stuff pays my bills and buys my toys.
I think the current design as Freek pointed out makes more than plenty of power for most people but there's always going to be the one's wanting more that someone has to give them if at all possible and everything is possible. The current design is beautiful even if it's not optimized for maximum possible power output. Remember they are selling this with a warranty and all. Plus they can't make sure they all land in someone's hands like my own that's going to do maintenance on the thing like it's suppose to have and beyond actually.
I want one but I want the one here not the street model I want to make this one street legal or at least able to get a tag for it so I can say it's street legal. The price however will be a factor since for the numbers they seem to be letting everyone assume it will be it's simply NOT worth it. For that kind of money it should have all Ohlin's front and rear with active suspension along with top of the line wheels from one or two of the top manufactures only. Titanium axles etc. Carbon fuel cell all made from PrePeg materials in an Autoclave which it appears to be. The poser single side swingarm needs to go and top shelf quick change hardware like WSB or MotoGp bikes come with. Clevis style adjusters and brake caliper that stays in position. I love the frame which after years of a 12R anyone would love! The wings etc all look super sexy to me as well. I'm also wondering where the air filter will find a home on the street H2?
Where is all the people that should be here discussing this thing also? I'm fine with it but idoes seem strange
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There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
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