DrewHerc130
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Posts: 140
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posted May 11, 2008 07:13 PM
Suspension set up
I'm curious to see what type of suspension set-ups people are running depending on their weight and type of riding their doing. I'm mostly interested in the touring settings for long distance comfort, but also curious about setting up for the twisties. I'm new to suspension tuning, so any help is welcomed.
While I've been getting a sore lower back/lumbar I've been tweaking my suspension to try and help this condition. Turns out my bike was delivered to me with 0 rear preload, full soft. So I moved it up to the "factory setting" of 12 clicks in and still got pretty sore after 100+ miles. Today I went up to what I figured was WAY too high on the hard side, with 24 clicks in (max is 34 for full hard preload). I then went on a 100 mile ride looking for bumpy roads. Turns out even rural GA has mostly smooth-as-glass roads. But that setting along with the rear damping set full out (least amt of damping) I did not get any lumbar cramping and soreness.
What are you all running for your weight and riding type?
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2008 C14, flies out, Area P-Carbon, BMC, PC3, Spencer Seat Mod, Alaska Leather, Helibars with Ram GPS mount, Nuvi 250W
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oncourse
Expert Class
I hate flies!!!
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posted May 13, 2008 04:00 PM
I don't know what to tell you, but just fiddle around and see what works for you. I will have to check the factor settings on mine but it feels good to me...
Rob
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fbrr
Parking Attendant
Posts: 9
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posted May 14, 2008 11:30 AM
I have the rear pre-load set at 14 clicks in ( 180lbs.) And the rear dampenging out 2 turns!
On the front I have tried dampening from 3 clicks out ( stiff ) to 7 clicks out ( soft ). If I'm out for a long ride or overnight I use the front 7 clicks out to smooth the harchness of the "tar strips". If I just go out to carve a little I turn the front down to 4 clicks out! I now leave the rear alone as it is pretty "harsh" even at the soft dampening setting. If my memory serves me 2 1/4 or 2 1/2 are the most you can go on the rear dampening.
Good Luck
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KrautBurner
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posted October 03, 2008 04:05 AM
bump,
I too am curious if anyone has any suggestions for setup for a bigger guy 225#
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DrewHerc130
Expert Class
Posts: 140
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posted October 13, 2008 08:36 PM
fbrr- those sound similar to what I've found works for me at about 190 lbs. Thanks.
I certainly agree when guys say you just have to ride it and see how your ride changes with adjustments. It does take some time.
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2008 C14, flies out, Area P-Carbon, BMC, PC3, Spencer Seat Mod, Alaska Leather, Helibars with Ram GPS mount, Nuvi 250W
"Life moves pretty quick. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."
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Phytrax
Zone Head
Posts: 526
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posted October 22, 2008 08:58 AM
 Edited By: Phytrax on 22 Oct 2008 17:00
I see the dampening adjustments say rebound dampening. Does anyone know if this affects compression dampening also or is it independant? I'd like to have my compression softer and my rebound slower. I'm not sure if slow rebound is considered soft or hard. The terminology seems different than what I'm used to on dirt bikes. You just increase or decrease dampening. For compression, hard or soft seems obvious but on rebound it could go either way depending on how you look at it.
Basically I'm asking if making the rebound harder makes it rebound slower or faster?
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DrewHerc130
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Posts: 140
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posted October 22, 2008 10:19 AM
The rebound is independent of compression preload. ON the forks the black knobs are rebound damping and the threaded nut below is the preload.
Hard rebound setting just means it rebounds faster.
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2008 C14, flies out, Area P-Carbon, BMC, PC3, Spencer Seat Mod, Alaska Leather, Helibars with Ram GPS mount, Nuvi 250W
"Life moves pretty quick. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."
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Phytrax
Zone Head
Posts: 526
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posted October 23, 2008 04:32 AM
Compression dampening and preload are two completely different things. Compression dampening stops compression from occurring too quickly, like in a hard MX landing. Preload just loads the springs. Spring compression force is only dependent on compression position, not compression speed. Compression dampening is dependent on compression speed. Compression dampening is not affected by spring preload. I just don't know if it's affected by rebound dampening or if it's completely nonadjustable.
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RIP+ZX-14- Brock's Gen3, Heli Risers, Corbin Bags, Corbin Seat and Oval Backrest (Burgandy Snakeskin and black alligator), Muzzys Frame Sliders, flies out, 18t front sprocket, PC3, Puig Double Bubble, Pirelli Diablo Strada's
KX450F - kickstand
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DrewHerc130
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posted October 23, 2008 06:08 PM
No, there is not a compression damping setting.
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2008 C14, flies out, Area P-Carbon, BMC, PC3, Spencer Seat Mod, Alaska Leather, Helibars with Ram GPS mount, Nuvi 250W
"Life moves pretty quick. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."
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Phytrax
Zone Head
Posts: 526
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posted October 23, 2008 07:00 PM
But will adjusting the rebound dampening affect the compression dampening? I'm no suspension expert but it seems like they could design them so one valve affects both. I guess they wouldn't say rebound dampening if it was for both, but anyway.
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Concourse14- Corbin Seat, Candy Apple Red Paint, Area P Slip-On
RIP+ZX-14- Brock's Gen3, Heli Risers, Corbin Bags, Corbin Seat and Oval Backrest (Burgandy Snakeskin and black alligator), Muzzys Frame Sliders, flies out, 18t front sprocket, PC3, Puig Double Bubble, Pirelli Diablo Strada's
KX450F - kickstand
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DrewHerc130
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posted October 24, 2008 02:21 PM
This is good. Phytrax, you got me thinking and doing a little research. Both the owners manual and service manual just specify that it is only a rebound dampening setting. However, I did learn doing some surfing that there are some bikes that have a both-in-one rebound and compression damping setting.
Also, the kawi info states about the PRELOAD that if you want a softer ride to loosen the setting. It almost sounds like they are inferring that the preload is like a compression dampening setting. But as you said, preload is only for adjusting sag due to the weight of the bike and rider. So why would the maintenance manual say:
"The spring preload can be left soft for average riding. But
it should be adjusted harder for high speed riding or riding
with a passenger. If the spring action feels too soft or too
stiff, adjust it in accordance with the following table."
Does it sound like they are bringing PRELOAD into the realm of compression damping? Hmmm...
____________
2008 C14, flies out, Area P-Carbon, BMC, PC3, Spencer Seat Mod, Alaska Leather, Helibars with Ram GPS mount, Nuvi 250W
"Life moves pretty quick. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."
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Phytrax
Zone Head
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posted October 27, 2008 03:09 AM
No, preload is definitely not dampening. I'm pretty confident about that. Turning up the preload would make it a little harder to compress the spring overall though and would make it rebound faster. So that does make it ride harder, especially if you over do it. Actually I lost track of my main question, which was "does setting the rebound dampening 'harder' make it rebound faster or slower?" I'm guessing faster but it's really not clear. i think it could make it ride harder or softer depending on the road and preload settings.
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RIP+ZX-14- Brock's Gen3, Heli Risers, Corbin Bags, Corbin Seat and Oval Backrest (Burgandy Snakeskin and black alligator), Muzzys Frame Sliders, flies out, 18t front sprocket, PC3, Puig Double Bubble, Pirelli Diablo Strada's
KX450F - kickstand
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jsa
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posted October 27, 2008 08:46 AM
Edited By: jsa on 27 Oct 2008 19:23
Dampening slows down the spring's compression and rebound. Without dampening, the forks and shock would act like a pogo stick every time the bike hit a bump. The harder the damping, the slower the spring(s) respond, if the compression dampening is too soft then the spring responds to bumps too quickly giving a mushy pogo stick ride, if the dampening is too hard, the spring doesn't respond quickly enough and the ride is too harsh. The same for rebound, too little dampening and the spring responds so quickly that it feels like a pogo stick, too much dampening and the spring rebounds so slowly that it may "pack down" and give a harsh ride on the next bump.
On the C14 cartridge front forks, the rebound and compression dampening are completely separate circuits and the only way to change the compression dampening is to change the weight of the fork oil. Changing the weight of the fork oil will also change the rebound dampening but you may be able to compensate for the new oil with the rebound dampening adjustment. My experience is that their is too much compression dampening in cool weather but the compression and rebound dampening is fairly balanced when the temperatures are 85-95 degrees. If you mostly ride in cooler temperatures then you may need to go to a lighter fork oil .... good luck figuring out what oil to use since the viscosity of fork oils is not consistent between brands.
The OEM shock is a different story. That type of shock USUALLY uses a common stacked shim valve for both rebound and compression damping and the adjustment USUALLY changes both even though it is stated to be rebound only. My experience on the C14 is that the adjustment does change both rebound and compression dampening, the problem is that they seem to be out of balance with each other. I can get the compression where I want it or the rebound where I want it but not both at the same time. I set mine up for the best rebound dampening since rebound is required over the entire stroke, compression dampening only effects the first part of the stroke. There probably is some rider weight and temperature combination where they are in balance but that is a hit and miss. Since the shock is a sealed unit and not rebuildable we are stuck with what we have and the only real solution is a adjustable, rebuildable, aftermarket shock.
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Phytrax
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posted October 27, 2008 12:42 PM
Thanks for the input jsa. Kind of what I was thinking but good to know they're tied together on the back.
Just another thought with hard dampening as you described it. Let's say you hit a bump 3" high, such as a speed bump. If your rebound dampening is too high your fork may only be able to rebound 1" before your tire hits the ground causing the front to drop 2", where as if it's set softer it may be able to rebound 2" or more causing the front to drop only 1" or less after the bump.
On the other hand when you hit a pothole the opposite would be true. The "softer" your rebound is set, the "harder" the forks will kick when they return to their normal position. Just trying to illustrate why you need balance for a smooth ride.
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zeexman
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posted October 28, 2008 07:19 PM
http://www.moto-racing.co.uk/Guides/motorcycleSuspensionSetup.htm
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DrewHerc130
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Posts: 140
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posted October 28, 2008 11:50 PM
quote:
On the other hand when you hit a pothole the opposite would be true. The "softer" your rebound is set, the "harder" the forks will kick when they return to their normal position. Just trying to illustrate why you need balance for a smooth ride.
By "harder" you mean faster, correct?
This is what had me confused. I see what you are both saying now.
So is it safe to say then that:
"Hard" = Heavy Spring Damping = SLOW return
then
"Soft" = Light Spring Damping = FAST return
I guess the labels on the shock had me misled. So if I want a slower shock response I'd turn it more toward the "H" setting (clockwise)? Is that correct?
____________
2008 C14, flies out, Area P-Carbon, BMC, PC3, Spencer Seat Mod, Alaska Leather, Helibars with Ram GPS mount, Nuvi 250W
"Life moves pretty quick. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."
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jsa
Parking Attendant
Posts: 3
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posted October 29, 2008 05:33 PM
quote:
I guess the labels on the shock had me misled. So if I want a slower shock response I'd turn it more toward the "H" setting (clockwise)? Is that correct?
Yes, to increase dampening and slow the spring's response, you move toward the "H" setting and to make it even simplier, that direction has been clockwise on every dampening adjustment I have ever seen.
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DrewHerc130
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posted October 29, 2008 09:35 PM
At first I thought the "hard" and "soft" was in reference to ride quality. Got it now.
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2008 C14, flies out, Area P-Carbon, BMC, PC3, Spencer Seat Mod, Alaska Leather, Helibars with Ram GPS mount, Nuvi 250W
"Life moves pretty quick. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."
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Phytrax
Zone Head
Posts: 526
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posted November 05, 2008 10:25 AM
Well it's supposed to reference ride quality. On MX bikes you can adjust compression dampening and in that case hard and soft are a lot more obvious. It's just not very intuitive when you talk about rebound dampening.
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RIP+ZX-14- Brock's Gen3, Heli Risers, Corbin Bags, Corbin Seat and Oval Backrest (Burgandy Snakeskin and black alligator), Muzzys Frame Sliders, flies out, 18t front sprocket, PC3, Puig Double Bubble, Pirelli Diablo Strada's
KX450F - kickstand
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MSA1956
Parking Attendant
Posts: 9
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posted November 14, 2008 04:34 AM
WOW, You guys got me there, I need to make some adjustments on mine, I need to do a little more research and riding before I do. Have a Great Kawai Day!!!
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DrewHerc130
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Posts: 140
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posted November 15, 2008 12:32 PM
From my original post :
quote:
But that setting along with the rear damping set full out (least amt of damping) I did not get any lumbar cramping and soreness.
As we've talked here, and many thanks to everyone for their input, I've learned that the above statement is backwards. With the rear damping "full out" or full counterclockwise, that provides the least damping and the fastest spring return rate.
This also explains my confusion that I got when I rode into an on-ramp fast and hit a small bump. This setting "full soft" damn near bucked me off the bike like a bull at a rodeo.
I've since moved the rear damping to 3/4 turn out, from full clockwise (hard) for a more plush ride. But this feels a little squishy doing anything but just driving straight. So it's all making sense now.
Moving on.......................
Now that I've got a handle on the damping, what about preload settings? I read the very well written article that zeexman posted and it says to try and set the sag to about 1/4 to 1/3 of the full travel. Which seems hard to achieve. I sat on the bike with 12 clicks of preload in (recommended stock setting) measured the sag, then moved it to full hard, 34 clicks in and there was only about 1/4" sag difference over a 22 click span. Has anyone tried this?
____________
2008 C14, flies out, Area P-Carbon, BMC, PC3, Spencer Seat Mod, Alaska Leather, Helibars with Ram GPS mount, Nuvi 250W
"Life moves pretty quick. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."
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jsa
Parking Attendant
Posts: 3
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posted November 16, 2008 09:59 AM
quote:
Now that I've got a handle on the damping, what about preload settings? I read the very well written article that zeexman posted and it says to try and set the sag to about 1/4 to 1/3 of the full travel. Which seems hard to achieve. I sat on the bike with 12 clicks of preload in (recommended stock setting) measured the sag, then moved it to full hard, 34 clicks in and there was only about 1/4" sag difference over a 22 click span. Has anyone tried this?
My experience is that even though the suspension is supposed to be set up for a 160 pound rider, the recommended stock preload is too stiff. Back it all the way off to 1 or 2 clicks, measure your sag, and start from there. If you can't find the "right" sag, then that is an indication that the spring is the wrong weight.
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DrewHerc130
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posted November 16, 2008 07:11 PM
I measured it with O preload and it gives me about 1 1/2" of sag, btw i'm 190 lbs. Which should be about right. Haven't rode it like that yet. At 12 clicks in, I get about 1 1/4" of sag. The 1 1/4" is at about the 25% of full travel.
The CalSci website has some good tips of this subject as well. Once I ride it awhile, I'll report back here.
Drew
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2008 C14, flies out, Area P-Carbon, BMC, PC3, Spencer Seat Mod, Alaska Leather, Helibars with Ram GPS mount, Nuvi 250W
"Life moves pretty quick. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."
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Silver Hawk
Zone Head
addition to riding no rehab4me
Posts: 725
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posted November 17, 2008 05:11 AM
I would say if you are traveling more than a couple of hours away and have clothes in the bag softer the better...if you are just tooling around town then keep it hard for handling purposes and moving out of the way...
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2008 Concours ABS 23k miles in a yr Sold
2009 R1 16k miles in a yr Sold
2005 Honda Goldwing..6k miles in 2 months ..Sold
2012 Concours ABS 5k in 1 month..Sold
2011 ZX 10r 2k in 1 month...Sold..
2012 ZX 10R ABS black and red 144 miles as of 4-23-2013 sold.
2013 F6B deluxe sold
Back to the 2012 Connie present
2014 Green and Black ZX14r ..Beast mode!! present.
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Silver Hawk
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addition to riding no rehab4me
Posts: 725
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posted November 17, 2008 10:45 PM
being on the east coast suck sometimes...it is cold as %^&* outside....but I have my cold gear now.....proper pants could get ride of the heat problem but as the temp is here right now i do not feel anything..
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2008 Concours ABS 23k miles in a yr Sold
2009 R1 16k miles in a yr Sold
2005 Honda Goldwing..6k miles in 2 months ..Sold
2012 Concours ABS 5k in 1 month..Sold
2011 ZX 10r 2k in 1 month...Sold..
2012 ZX 10R ABS black and red 144 miles as of 4-23-2013 sold.
2013 F6B deluxe sold
Back to the 2012 Connie present
2014 Green and Black ZX14r ..Beast mode!! present.
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