jailcop
Novice Class
Posts: 100
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posted May 09, 2008 05:31 AM
Octane Question (87,89,92,93)
What octane do you run in the C14? My first tank full I put in 89, I know the book says 90 but with the cost of fuel I figured I would try it. Now the second tank I put in 93 but the weather has the bike parked so I only have 50 miles on this tank. The other problem (like I read in another post is living in Pennsylvania) is most gas stations use a blend with 10% alcohol. I think I would try to avoid that but it's hard because most stations don't have signs telling customers about the alcohol. Anyway what octane works the best?????
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drewherc130
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posted May 09, 2008 11:57 AM
 Edited By: drewherc130 on 9 May 2008 12:58
I use 93 just because the mfr told me to. Although in my 04 vtx 1800, i used 87 frequently and didn't have any performance problems. That said, I also never tore the engine apart to inspect the pistons, rings, and valves to determine any longer term problems such as excessive combustion byproduct build up.
Alas, gas is indeed expen$ive!
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2008 C14, flies out, Area P-Carbon, BMC, PC3, Spencer Seat Mod, Alaska Leather, Helibars with Ram GPS mount, Nuvi 250W
"Life moves pretty quick. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."
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oncourse
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posted May 09, 2008 04:00 PM
Book says minimum of 91, I use 93. If you go over the octane that your bike actually needs, you will lose power due to the slower burn. Higher octane just slows the burn of the fuel down, so lower octane burns faster.
The higher octane is safer, if you are not into taking chances, but I would at least go by the mfr. as a minimum 91. Then again some stations might have more than others in reguards to the ACTUAL octane. There recently was a proposal here in pa. to have the octane ratings checked at every station in the state, like that will ever happen....
Rob
____________
True intellegence is not measured by your degrees.
04 klr 250 Lots of mods and 70 MPG!!
08 Connie 2 bros. Carbon. Helibars. Flies out, PC3!!!
2003 kx 500 SOLD
2004 KX 500 In service now, whata BEAST!
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jailcop
Novice Class
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posted May 09, 2008 05:38 PM
Edited By: jailcop on 9 May 2008 18:46
oncourse, Your right about the burn of the fuel. My ZZR called for I think 91 but I found over time that the bike ran better on 89. As for the C14 I'll stick with the 91 per the book, why take chances. By the way where do you live it sounds like your from (or near) Pennsylvania. I live in Easton, it's about 55 miles up route 611 from Philadelphia right on the New Jersey border.
Hey I just looked at your profile, your about 15 miles north of me.
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oncourse
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posted May 09, 2008 06:03 PM
I am in saylorsburg, but work in bethlehem.... I am a lot closer than you think...
you are like 5 miles from work..
We gotta go ridin' sometime. Just gotta get the helis on and remove the flys!!!
You learn something every day, just remember it :-)
You know where salorsburg is?
Rob
____________
True intellegence is not measured by your degrees.
04 klr 250 Lots of mods and 70 MPG!!
08 Connie 2 bros. Carbon. Helibars. Flies out, PC3!!!
2003 kx 500 SOLD
2004 KX 500 In service now, whata BEAST!
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jailcop
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posted May 09, 2008 07:03 PM
quote:
I am in saylorsburg, but work in bethlehem.... I am a lot closer than you think...
you are like 5 miles from work..
We gotta go ridin' sometime. Just gotta get the helis on and remove the flys!!!
You learn something every day, just remember it :-)
You know where salorsburg is?
Rob
I ride that way a lot. I take route 33 to the Salorsburg exit (if it's Sunday I stop and get a hot dog from Buddy, he parks his truck near the exit). Then I'll head over to Kunkeltown Road and head toward Palmerton then Jim Thorpe. Get on 54 and go out to Centralia or up towards Knoebles or where ever. West and north of Jim Thorpe is one of my favorite places to ride. The are some great areas in the Pocono's but the fucking traffic can be a bitch sometimes. When I ride I hate traffic. I also do a lot of rides up near Port Jervis New York, High Point State Park in Jew Jersey and route 97 through the Hawks Nest in New York. We'll have to meet up sometime. Keep in touch. Kevin
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That, That Does Not Kill Me Can Only Make Me Stronger
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TedG
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posted May 09, 2008 07:58 PM
I run 89 because I live and ride at high altitude. At altitude you lose compression points. The less compression the less octane needed unless of course you advance the timing. Always remember, the more octane the slower the flame front. That can cause less power. You only want enough octane to keep the thing from pinging any more and you start to lose power. At sea leaver I run premium if I am going to be riding it hard. If not I just run mid grade.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
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DrewHerc130
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posted May 09, 2008 10:49 PM
That sounds good Ted. All we have here in Savannah (sea level) is 93, 89, 87.
Maybe I'll try some mid grade just to see.
____________
2008 C14, flies out, Area P-Carbon, BMC, PC3, Spencer Seat Mod, Alaska Leather, Helibars with Ram GPS mount, Nuvi 250W
"Life moves pretty quick. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."
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oncourse
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posted May 10, 2008 03:42 AM
Kevin,
When you get onto kunkletown road, 2 miles later there is a stopsign, if you made a right there, then made the next right and went 1.1 miles you would be at my front door...
Small world I guess, you drive right by here...
The ride through the poconos is great, I love taking 191 right up through, especially in the fall.
Rob
____________
True intellegence is not measured by your degrees.
04 klr 250 Lots of mods and 70 MPG!!
08 Connie 2 bros. Carbon. Helibars. Flies out, PC3!!!
2003 kx 500 SOLD
2004 KX 500 In service now, whata BEAST!
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oncourse
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I hate flies!!!
Posts: 467
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posted May 10, 2008 04:25 AM
Kevin,
Did you get your C-14 from Mike Andretti powersports? That was where I actually got to see and sit on one last fall, that made my mind up. I have met most of the andretti family, as a matter of fact Mario is the co-owner of where I work, and I do work on his vehicles (except the lp-640). If you got it there maybe I sat on your bike??
I got mine from Stroud, they had to order it for me as they only had the floor model (abs) and I wanted non abs, the money saved helped by the exhaust and the helibars.
Next it will be the pc3 and the flys gone!
Thanks Ted for the insight of altitude and octane.
Rob
____________
True intellegence is not measured by your degrees.
04 klr 250 Lots of mods and 70 MPG!!
08 Connie 2 bros. Carbon. Helibars. Flies out, PC3!!!
2003 kx 500 SOLD
2004 KX 500 In service now, whata BEAST!
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DrewHerc130
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Posts: 140
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posted May 10, 2008 04:43 AM
Rob, you can let ME know how pulling the flys and installing the pc3 goes. Sounds a bit more complex than putting on ape hangers. Drew
____________
2008 C14, flies out, Area P-Carbon, BMC, PC3, Spencer Seat Mod, Alaska Leather, Helibars with Ram GPS mount, Nuvi 250W
"Life moves pretty quick. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."
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oncourse
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I hate flies!!!
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posted May 10, 2008 04:56 AM
No Problem, I know it is going to be very involved and the first time doing anything stinks. I hate ripping things apart, I love putting things back together. Once you get something apart you know how it goes back together. It is always the first time doing new things that get's me. The second time is a no brainer.
I really want what the bike is capable of, not what Kawi thinks I should have.... The ability to just short shift and be gone is alluring without having to use the tach up. I want to keep it forever, that is how much I love this bike!
Rob
____________
True intellegence is not measured by your degrees.
04 klr 250 Lots of mods and 70 MPG!!
08 Connie 2 bros. Carbon. Helibars. Flies out, PC3!!!
2003 kx 500 SOLD
2004 KX 500 In service now, whata BEAST!
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tundra tom
Novice Class
Posts: 68
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posted May 10, 2008 05:14 AM
quote:
I run 89 because I live and ride at high altitude. At altitude you lose compression points. The less compression the less octane needed unless of course you advance the timing. Always remember, the more octane the slower the flame front. That can cause less power. You only want enough octane to keep the thing from pinging any more and you start to lose power. At sea leaver I run premium if I am going to be riding it hard. If not I just run mid grade.
Here's a riddle for you. At 10.7:1 the compression is hardly high enough to warrent premium fuel. So is it the V V T that requires it?
____________
"When my time has come, I prefer to be in the Saddle rather than the Recliner"
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oncourse
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posted May 10, 2008 05:46 AM
My theory is that it is possible that the V V T needs it. Any change in cam timing will effect the pressure in the cylinder, not the actual compression ratio, which is set in stone by the crank piston and head, but the actual compression pressure and cylinder filling.
The V V T system is designed to produce more power and torque at lower rpm's, in sense, a higher load. So it is possible that the change in cam timing at lower speeds could create a higher cyinder pressure/load requiring more octane than a fixed cam setup.
Rob
____________
True intellegence is not measured by your degrees.
04 klr 250 Lots of mods and 70 MPG!!
08 Connie 2 bros. Carbon. Helibars. Flies out, PC3!!!
2003 kx 500 SOLD
2004 KX 500 In service now, whata BEAST!
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jailcop
Novice Class
Posts: 100
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posted May 10, 2008 06:16 AM
quote:
Kevin,
Did you get your C-14 from Mike Andretti powersports? That was where I actually got to see and sit on one last fall, that made my mind up. I have met most of the andretti family, as a matter of fact Mario is the co-owner of where I work, and I do work on his vehicles (except the lp-640). If you got it there maybe I sat on your bike??
I got mine from Stroud, they had to order it for me as they only had the floor model (abs) and I wanted non abs, the money saved helped by the exhaust and the helibars.
Next it will be the pc3 and the flys gone!
Thanks Ted for the insight of altitude and octane.
Rob
No, I was going to get the one at Andretti's but they don't have any good financing options. My credit union will finance bikes but will only loan 60% of the value (MSRP) of the bike and only for 48 months. That meant to much of a down payment from me. Also I was interested in the ABS model. I actually ended up getting it at Scott Power Sports on 309 in Coopersburg. I'm not a big fan of them but the trade price for my ZZR was good and the financing was good so I got it. I'll do all my maintenance and warranty work at Andretti's because Mike the mechanic is a friend of mine. So are Chris and Ford in the sales department.
____________
That, That Does Not Kill Me Can Only Make Me Stronger
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tundra tom
Novice Class
Posts: 68
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posted May 10, 2008 06:29 AM
quote:
quote:
I run 89 because I live and ride at high altitude. At altitude you lose compression points. The less compression the less octane needed unless of course you advance the timing. Always remember, the more octane the slower the flame front. That can cause less power. You only want enough octane to keep the thing from pinging any more and you start to lose power. At sea leaver I run premium if I am going to be riding it hard. If not I just run mid grade.
Here's a riddle for you. At 10.7:1 the compression is hardly high enough to warrent premium fuel. So is it the V V T that requires it?
This is off the Kaw web site:
Q: Why is the compression ratio lower?
A: The theoretical compression ratio of 10.7:1 is lower than the 12.0:1 of the ZX-
14. However, the actual compression ratio increases when the camshaft
timing is advanced higher. With intake camshaft timing becoming more advanced
than the ZX-14's via the C14's Variable Valve Timing, it was necessary to start at
a lower ratio so we could keep the actual compression ratio from becoming
higher than the engine's knocking limit.
____________
"When my time has come, I prefer to be in the Saddle rather than the Recliner"
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oncourse
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posted May 10, 2008 04:02 PM
It is not the "actual" compression ratio that changes, it is the "effective" compression ratio, they are 2 different things. "effective" is the word to use for this situation.
Rob
____________
True intellegence is not measured by your degrees.
04 klr 250 Lots of mods and 70 MPG!!
08 Connie 2 bros. Carbon. Helibars. Flies out, PC3!!!
2003 kx 500 SOLD
2004 KX 500 In service now, whata BEAST!
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DrewHerc130
Expert Class
Posts: 140
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posted May 11, 2008 08:00 AM
quote:
Book says minimum of 91, I use 93. If you go over the octane that your bike actually needs, you will lose power due to the slower burn. Higher octane just slows the burn of the fuel down, so lower octane burns faster.
The higher octane is safer, if you are not into taking chances, but I would at least go by the mfr. as a minimum 91. Then again some stations might have more than others in reguards to the ACTUAL octane. There recently was a proposal here in pa. to have the octane ratings checked at every station in the state, like that will ever happen....
Rob
My book says minimum octane rating: 90 
But, what's one octane rating among friends? 
I burned 89 yesterday and it seemed okay. Maybe a little less power, but the fuel mileage seemed better. Though we were just on state roads all day less than 70mph and you know those Hardleys take a little to get going from a stop light.
But if the higher octane burns slower, then why do the race bikes use that 105 octane race gas? Does the bike just need to be tuned different for a higher compression?
____________
2008 C14, flies out, Area P-Carbon, BMC, PC3, Spencer Seat Mod, Alaska Leather, Helibars with Ram GPS mount, Nuvi 250W
"Life moves pretty quick. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."
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DrewHerc130
Expert Class
Posts: 140
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posted May 11, 2008 08:14 AM
Also, does the lower octane fuel cause the engine to run hotter b/c of the quicker burn? It was about 90 degrees yesterday and very humid, but even on a long easy stretch of road doing 65 in OD, I was still at 3 bars on the temperature gage. Usually it'll cool off to 2 bars.
____________
2008 C14, flies out, Area P-Carbon, BMC, PC3, Spencer Seat Mod, Alaska Leather, Helibars with Ram GPS mount, Nuvi 250W
"Life moves pretty quick. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."
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oncourse
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posted May 11, 2008 09:42 AM
Ok Drew, here it is.. What Ted said is absolutley correct, you need just enough octane to keep your bike from pinging, any more and you will lose some power, it is really that simple.
Real race bikes have not a whole lot in common with the C-14, zx-14 etc.. They are pushing the envelope of internal cumbustion technology. Very radical cam and ignition timing, extremely high compression and so on, they are designed to squeeze every ounce of power from each cylinder. Given the very high loads that they have to go through, they need the higher octane to keep the engine from self destructing. Pinging, or detonation is caused by ether 2 colliding flame fronts, or too advanced timing, creating extremely high combustion pressures within the cylinders, this is not what an engine wants, you want a progessive burn, with higher octane you can start the burn sooner, have it last longer, and it is able to handle the higer compression way easier.
Ok, maybe the manual says 90 min, but I have never seen a gas pump with 90 on it, so 91 is the closest to being right. If your mileage actually improved at 89, and you heard no pinging, then that would be the way to go.
I hope this helps some in understanding engines...
Rob
.
____________
True intellegence is not measured by your degrees.
04 klr 250 Lots of mods and 70 MPG!!
08 Connie 2 bros. Carbon. Helibars. Flies out, PC3!!!
2003 kx 500 SOLD
2004 KX 500 In service now, whata BEAST!
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oncourse
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Posts: 467
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posted May 11, 2008 09:48 AM
The coolant temp may be higher on hotter days, I have seen 3 bars even on 75 deg. days, I do not think it had to do with the gas. Pinging and a heat rise are only going to be prevalent under high load conditions, like nailing it especially at lower rpm's and in a higher gear, where the load is high due to not enough engine speed. If you had the flies out, and were using the engine hard at lower rpm's I would say run premium.
Rob
____________
True intellegence is not measured by your degrees.
04 klr 250 Lots of mods and 70 MPG!!
08 Connie 2 bros. Carbon. Helibars. Flies out, PC3!!!
2003 kx 500 SOLD
2004 KX 500 In service now, whata BEAST!
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DrewHerc130
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Posts: 140
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posted May 11, 2008 12:45 PM
I don't know that I've heard pinging before. Is it obvious?
I wonder if the the high humidity here (even though close to sea level) is similar to the high altitude effect Ted mentioned. Both cause lower air density. In both cases wouldn't the compression be lowered since there's actually less air to compress?
Rob, when you say too advanced timing, that means ignition began too early before TDC, right? What about the coliding flame fronts, how does that occur?
I sure appreciate the schooling here! I'm learning a lot. Also, just messing with ya on the octane jab..
Thanks,
Drew
____________
2008 C14, flies out, Area P-Carbon, BMC, PC3, Spencer Seat Mod, Alaska Leather, Helibars with Ram GPS mount, Nuvi 250W
"Life moves pretty quick. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."
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oncourse
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posted May 11, 2008 03:22 PM
Drew I did not mean to overcomplicate my answer to your post, but I might have done so and if I did, sorry..
The exact noise of pinging is hard to describe, but is like having a metal can of marbles and shaking them up. It does vary in pitch and loudnes, but uless you had a real loud exhaust on you should be able to hear it.
The high humidity is usually an octane helper, the cheapest way to add octane effect is through water injection, but you seem to have that naturally.
Colliding flame fronts is more severe than just pinging, it usually occours when a hot piece of carbon on the piston or head lights off the mixture before the spark, than the spark fires. Both flame fronts collide causing a very high pressure shock wave to be created.
Too advanced of timing will cause the flame to start too early creating a higher than normal combustion pressure by top dead center.
I do not see where you have a problem, you should be able to hear pinging and if you do not it, is not an issue, it really is that simple.
Rob
____________
True intellegence is not measured by your degrees.
04 klr 250 Lots of mods and 70 MPG!!
08 Connie 2 bros. Carbon. Helibars. Flies out, PC3!!!
2003 kx 500 SOLD
2004 KX 500 In service now, whata BEAST!
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DrewHerc130
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Posts: 140
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posted May 11, 2008 06:41 PM
No, you did not over complicate it. Very good explanation. Thanks!
____________
2008 C14, flies out, Area P-Carbon, BMC, PC3, Spencer Seat Mod, Alaska Leather, Helibars with Ram GPS mount, Nuvi 250W
"Life moves pretty quick. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."
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