Don Johnson
Parking Attendant
Posts: 1
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posted October 07, 2007 08:54 AM
I am very interested in installing a slip on muffler and a PCIII and doing the mods to get more grunt out of my Concours 14. One thing I am interested in when group members talk about the power it makes, roughly measured by the ability to lift the front wheel and other subjective means, is that I wonder at what elevation above sea leve any of this is taking place. The computer and the injection should take care of the A/F ratios when one rides the thing from one elevation to another (it is about 4400 feet above sea level on the valley floor here in Reno, NV), but the power will still be a fair amount less here just due to the lower air density and it gets worse as one goes up into the mountains. Can you all give me more info about the elevations at which these power measurements/judgements are made? Thanks! dondlhmn@aol.com
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Don Johnson
Reno, NV
  
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wormgear
Expert Class
Posts: 339
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posted October 07, 2007 09:07 AM
All I can tell you is that I'm in Houston TX where it's always flat and low, usually hot and humid.
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GodDamnit there's always such a big temptation to be good, to be good! (Tom Waits)
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Ozzy
Needs a job
need guberment cheese
Posts: 3172
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posted October 07, 2007 10:42 AM
quote:
I'm trying to decide between Area P, because he seems like such a nice guy and the Muzzy dual outlet system, due out soon.
Are you going with the 2" core?
The nice guy (kerry) at area P told me he is developing a dual can system for the GTR14
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"It's 106 miles to Chicago, we've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses......HIT IT!"
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gpz1100
Expert Class
Posts: 147
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posted October 07, 2007 01:54 PM
 Edited By: gpz1100 on 7 Oct 2007 14:57
Wormgear,
Do you have a fully stock dyno run pic too?
Would be interesting to see how it all compares.
As I understand it, the main difference between the two runs in your pic is the fly removal and air filter screen removal. You've already used a slightly modified pc3 map for your initial base, correct?
Too bad the 2nd pic doesn't show it in terms of engine rpm.
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gpz1100
Expert Class
Posts: 147
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posted October 07, 2007 02:05 PM
Edited By: gpz1100 on 7 Oct 2007 15:07
quote:
Damn -- 90 FT LBS of RWTQ STD at 4K RPM...that's gotta be a huge gain over flies in...some serious pullin' power there! 
FBA,
Where do you see 90 ft lb?
I blew up the image and extended a line to the scale at 3, 4, 5, and 6K rpms. The following are differences I see compared to the image at areap http://www.areapnolimits.com/images/product/c14_dyno_big.gif .
At 3K, looks to be about 74 ft lb vs without the flies vs 77 ft lb. 3 Ft lb difference
At 4K, 83.5 ft lb (with flies), vs without the flies 85 ft lb. 1.5 ft lb difference.
At 5K, 87 ft lb (with flies) vs without flies 91 ft lb. 4 ft lb difference
At 6K, 89 ft lb (with flies) vs without flies ~93 ft lb. 4 ft lb difference
Specifically, this is comparing the red graph in the first pic above to the purple graph at AreaP. So assuming my comparisons are remotely correct, there is at most a 4 ft lb difference.
How much of a difference does this manifest to in real on the bike seat of the pants feel.......
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3sacrowd
Parking Attendant
Posts: 9
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posted October 07, 2007 02:41 PM
Edited By: 3sacrowd on 7 Oct 2007 15:54
Am I mistaken, but doesn't this show that most of the gain is at the higher RPM's. I thought pulling the flies was going to make a tremendous difference in low RPM puling power , but even at 7K there is only about a 2 HP difference and it doesnt show a real difference until about 8K, with most of the gain arriving between 9 and 10K. Just adding a set of slip-ons and a PC111 with map should be able to do the same thing, and that is easily reversible in case there are warranty issues.
I'm with you GPZ 1100. Your reading of the dyno chart is the same way I see it.
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2002 GL1800w/DFT trike kit
2008 Suzuki B King
2008 Kawasaki Concours 1499
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wormgear
Expert Class
Posts: 339
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posted October 07, 2007 03:34 PM
Edited By: wormgear on 7 Oct 2007 17:06
Ok listen, here's what I did.
I put the Area P on and rode around for a week or so, no pc3, no dyno, no issues. I could not "feel" any difference in power but it sounds and looks great.
THEN I pulled the flies and installed the pc3. I went to the power commander website and installed the zero map for the stock zx 1400 and then using the buttons on the pc3 richened the a/f ratio five bars in the low range, five bars in the mid and four bars in the high rpm range. I didn't want to burn it up on the way to the tuner and I did not ride the bike that day.
THEN the next morning I rode it very easy, 20 miles to the tuner and had it mapped.
The different color lines on the chart indicate only what the tuner did AFTER I did my thing
THEN I rode it and could "feel" the enhanced low-end grunt.
The bike has only been on the dyno once. After all the mods.
Take whatever you can from the dyno graphs, they're always somewhat subjective.
What I know from riding it is like I said on my first post here "Smooth and powerful and a lot more low end pull than with the flies in. It's not overwhelming at all with the flies out. I don't think it'll power wheelie (Ok, strike that , It will but it MAY have done that before. I never really tried it pre-mod). It does pull much harder in the 3-5 k range when you ask for it, but the throttle is silky smooth and easy during normal operation.
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GodDamnit there's always such a big temptation to be good, to be good! (Tom Waits)
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3sacrowd
Parking Attendant
Posts: 9
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posted October 07, 2007 04:27 PM
Since you dynoed the bike only after you added the pipe, there is no way to see what doing the flies only (with PC111 mapping) added to the bike. I'm still waiting to see someone post a chart with that info.
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2002 GL1800w/DFT trike kit
2008 Suzuki B King
2008 Kawasaki Concours 1499
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wormgear
Expert Class
Posts: 339
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posted October 07, 2007 04:51 PM
Ok sure, that would be interesting. But this thread title IS "PCIII MAP for Area P, flies out, screen out". If anyone wants to use what's here they're welcome to it. If not, that's cool too. I'm not selling anything. At $200 a pop I didn't want to do dyno runs at each stage. I'm done power modding now and very happy with the way my bike runs and feels. I'm going to spend my money on tires and farkles from now on 
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GodDamnit there's always such a big temptation to be good, to be good! (Tom Waits)
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted October 08, 2007 10:55 AM
Edited By: fastestbusaaround on 8 Oct 2007 12:02
quote:
quote:
Damn -- 90 FT LBS of RWTQ STD at 4K RPM...that's gotta be a huge gain over flies in...some serious pullin' power there!
FBA,
Where do you see 90 ft lb?
I blew up the image and extended a line to the scale at 3, 4, 5, and 6K rpms. The following are differences I see compared to the image at areap http://www.areapnolimits.com/images/product/c14_dyno_big.gif .
At 3K, looks to be about 74 ft lb vs without the flies vs 77 ft lb. 3 Ft lb difference
At 4K, 83.5 ft lb (with flies), vs without the flies 85 ft lb. 1.5 ft lb difference.
At 5K, 87 ft lb (with flies) vs without flies 91 ft lb. 4 ft lb difference
At 6K, 89 ft lb (with flies) vs without flies ~93 ft lb. 4 ft lb difference
Specifically, this is comparing the red graph in the first pic above to the purple graph at AreaP. So assuming my comparisons are remotely correct, there is at most a 4 ft lb difference.
How much of a difference does this manifest to in real on the bike seat of the pants feel.......
1) Those charts are with flies out; before and after tuning
2) You're reading the HP numbers, not the TQ numbers and TQ shows around 90+. When a Dyno test is done in 6th, the flies are already open because the ECU is programmed to do just that; it's in the lower gears that you'll see the huge gains, because that's where the manufacturer places the throttle plate restrictions, not in 6th (overdrive). You wouldn't use 6th to pull away quickly at 3-4K in any case.
All your number you quoted above are based on the fact that you believed the Dyno runs to be flies in and flies out, which they clearly were not.
Now, just imagine what 90+FT LPS or RWTQ will do in 1st -4th at 3-4k as opposed to something which was probably around 65-70 pre-flies-out. We're talking about 30% or more in gains on TQ in the lower gears at low RPM -- and that's HUGE in bikeland...
The only way to know that exact difference on a chart would be to Dyno the bike in 1st or 2nd before and after fly removal and see the gains at LOW RPM. 6th will always show full power at those speeds, as per my explanation above.
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FYYFF!!!
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gpz1100
Expert Class
Posts: 147
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posted October 08, 2007 11:25 AM
FBA,
My comparison was done using the top graph in this post and the areaP graph from the link in my post. The areaP graph is with the flies in, not out. Are you saying the areaP graph was with the flies out too?
I was reading torque #'s, not HP. Not even looking at the HP numbers.
From the bottom graph above, how is a dyno run done starting at 30 mph in 6th gear?
The only place above where I see 90+ ft lb of torque is in the 6.5Krpm range in the top graph above. The rpm range in question is the low end. Say 2.5-5Krpm.
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted October 08, 2007 11:58 AM
Edited By: fastestbusaaround on 8 Oct 2007 12:59
I see 90 at 4500...judging by the charts posted here...and at 6500, I see about 93. I see 77 at about 3k...
Use the indicators on the left of the chart. AreaP's charts probably reflect Dyno runs with the flies out or started from higher gears and though the difference isn't huge between these two standards, they are using SAE, not STD as we see above. If you look at the original charts on the ZX14 with the flies in, you'll see the huge drop at 3-5k. Guaranteed, the C14 results are similar; I've run the bike both ways and it's not rocket science. There are massive gains with the flies out, even before tuning.
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=27&TID=24810]
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FYYFF!!!
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johns
Expert Class
Posts: 205
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posted October 08, 2007 12:52 PM
Not to add to any controversy here but I question whether any map generated exclusively on a Dynojet with tuning link is rich enough at speeds high enough for the ram air to be effective. The A/F ratio looks just like my stock ZX-14 did on Ryan Schnitz's dyno before mapping (power commander installed with a 0 map). After mapping to produce a flat ideal A/F curve on the dyno the bike made more HP and it extended farther up the scale. The tuning link put numbers in the map at the top end as low as -17 to compensate. Guess what, the bike ran slower on the street drag racing the same guy I had been running for months before mapping the otherwise stock bike (everything stock except a power commander). I asked Ryan how the ECU compensated for the ram air effect and he was not sure. I think it compensates off the speed sensor and that is why you see the A/F go so rich on dyno runs with no ram air effect on a static dyno. Granted the factory probably adds a little safety margin but that doesn't explain a A/F ratio below 11/1 on a stock ZX-14 or the new Concours.
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2006 ZX-14 (sold)
2012 ZX-14R (Brock's Perf. project bike Louisville Slugger)
2013 Honda VFR1200F
2003 124 C.I. H.D. Super glide
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fastestbusaaround
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I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted October 08, 2007 02:45 PM
In this particular case, I'm only after the mapping that corrects the low end issue regrading the AFR's. I'm not even sure that there is any real ram air technology on the C14...is it mentioned anywhere?
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FYYFF!!!
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johns
Expert Class
Posts: 205
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posted October 08, 2007 04:29 PM
Fastestbusa ram air is listed as a feature on the Kawasaki website for the C14 so I assume it is there. The maps created on tuning link are certainly effective for the rpm ranges in the low and mid ranges you are concerned about. It is at high RPM's (8000 & above) in the upper gears where the ram air is effective that I question its effectiveness. If anyone questions the effectiveness of ram air on the C14 refer to the new Motorcyclist article. The dyno says the FJR make 127.2 HP and the C14 makes 133 HP. The C14 only makes 5.8 more HP on the dyno but it is .53 seconds quicker and 6.8 MPH quicker in the 1/4 mile. Thats a lot quicker and faster than 5.8 indicated dyno HP will account for on a heavier bike. A portion of the extreme richness indicated on a stock C14 above 8000 RPM is there to compensate for the ram air effect you do not see on a stationary dyno pull. Some of it is also there as a safety factor for guys like you and me who they know will modify the bike for more HP. I would like to see a data log of the A/F ratio on a C14 that has been tuned on tuning link at speeds from 100 to 140 MPH under full power to see if they still match.
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2006 ZX-14 (sold)
2012 ZX-14R (Brock's Perf. project bike Louisville Slugger)
2013 Honda VFR1200F
2003 124 C.I. H.D. Super glide
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted October 08, 2007 05:05 PM
Ahhhh soooo -- got it -- thanks! Guess the only way to get real data and tuning is by using a wideband /datalogger and a bung, but truthfully, I'm not really concerned about the top end, as this bike will spend most of it's time in the 80-135 MPH range. When I want to fly, I'll take the ZX out. This was a purchase more for riding 2-up...and my G/F freaks over 110 anyway.
Then again, guys like Smokin' run insanely quick times on the ZX and that's with simple Dyno tuning...I'm not sure how much more you could really get out of the ZX engine with a Wideband on a stock motor...we're talking dust particles now IMO 
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FYYFF!!!
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JamminJere
Parking Attendant
Posts: 18
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posted October 08, 2007 05:09 PM
Worm,
I don't quite understand your map... maybe FBA can shed some light on this for me, I've seen lots of maps for pc3's but yours is almost all 8's... in every rpm and throttle position.. all 8's. How's that work? Your tuner left it that way after you just dialed in some fuel with the buttons? And the stock map for the zx14 with some added in fuel by the buttons was just right? So it wasn't mapped and tuned.. it was just a dyno run of the torque and the power?
At the dynojet site, right below the stock zx14 map, is a map for slip ons, stock air filter, and flies out. Thats an extensive map that may make your bike even more alive.
Most dyno-jet tuners get 250 to 300 bucks to fully map a bike because it takes hours and a few cool downs of the motor to do it right. but your A/F mixture here surely isn't gonna do any damage. How long can you keep the bike at 2 to 3K rpm at WOT?
I'm not saying that map M224-012
will be perfect for the Concours because of the VVT and a few other things, But I think it would be worth a shot in your bike as a baseline. It may give you better gas mileage too!
Just fuel for thought from another one of the pussies ass bitches that dont know nuthin.
See you on the road,
Jerry
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There really isn't much difference between "the masses" and "them asses".
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted October 08, 2007 05:19 PM
Edited By: fastestbusaaround on 8 Oct 2007 18:21
Yup, he was a lazy tuner; he only did the high end of the range and left the "button tuning" as is...LOL
It was "1/10th" mapped -- tuner had to go take a dump and forgot to tune everything under 100%
throttle  
PS: I don't think he wants to back to the tuner -- so that map will have to do for him for now, but the AFR's are not bad at 100%...would be nice to know what happens at less than 100 though...
Maybe MUZZY's will have a map at some point -- or one of the other members will on Bikeland. I'm sure we'll see something soon...
Steve...
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FYYFF!!!
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JamminJere
Parking Attendant
Posts: 18
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posted October 08, 2007 05:34 PM
Steve,
I have the same Area P pipe as Worm, and the PCIII. I bought mine from Jamie at FuelMoto.com. Maybe thats where we all bought them I dont know. Jamie loaded a map in my PCIII for the Concours14, Stock exhaust, stock air filter. It was alot different than the stock zx14 map and worked well with the Slip on, But I did try from the ZX14 map data base map M224-02 for AP slip-ons and stock air filter. Bigger difference in power, just easier to pull out, more mid-range power. I have that map in the bike now. I'm gonna pull the flies and load the map M224-012 as I mentioned to worm. I'll let you know how it goes. When I get something close, I'll spend the 300 bucks and have it fully mapped.
I agree with you... don't neuter the bike's power, let me decide how to manage it.
Jerry
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There really isn't much difference between "the masses" and "them asses".
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted October 08, 2007 05:44 PM
Edited By: fastestbusaaround on 8 Oct 2007 18:44
I just found an article (a bit old) that talks about the lack of low end grunt on the bike -- and noooooo it wasn't written by me...
Click here to read it
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FYYFF!!!
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rifleman223
Novice Class
Posts: 94
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posted October 08, 2007 07:34 PM
Well, I ordered the PCIII. Hopefully I get it installed so Ican try the map ou.
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wormgear
Expert Class
Posts: 339
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posted October 09, 2007 01:52 AM
Jerry,
Steve,
Everybody....
I'll start by saying what you have probably already gathered, I know shit about mapping.
But I told these guys I wanted a full map and that's what they said I was getting.
I'm going back to talk to them about what you've brought up here (all the 8's). I want it done right.
I'd like to try the M224-012 map on mine. Are you guys sure it will be safe for this engine? The last thing I want is a hole in a piston.
I apologise to anyone who downloaded my map if it is indeed incomplete.
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GodDamnit there's always such a big temptation to be good, to be good! (Tom Waits)
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JamminJere
Parking Attendant
Posts: 18
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posted October 09, 2007 02:52 AM
Worm,
I'm going to run that map on my bike when i get a chance to pull the flies...Even tho the zx14 is a little different from the concours, I think it will be way closer to what you're looking for performance wise and I'm sure its not going to be lean enough to do any damage to your motor. Good luck talking to those guys and make sure you get what you paid for.
Jerry
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There really isn't much difference between "the masses" and "them asses".
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted October 09, 2007 04:49 AM
Edited By: fastestbusaaround on 9 Oct 2007 06:18
Worm, I'll look at that map for the ZX14 now and let you know shortly after I compare the two...but it's a guess at best...though I doubt it will be lean for the C14.
Ok -- I looked at the map from Dynojet...if the ZX14 and the C14 are similar in terms of what's needed in AFR's, the Dynojet map will be fine for now. You won't know how whether it's up or down in terms of overall performance and the seat of the pants Dyno won't tell you much. You may see an increase in engine temps with the Dynojet map at lower speeds; that's something you probably will notice, but nothing to worry about. I suspect that you're running cooler with your current map over stock, but that's because you're running quite rich in the lower ranges, not really serious either. IMO, the map will be fine for now. The other thing you have to know, is that it's important to set the TPS in the PC software if you're going to load it yourself and for that, you need the 9V battery and the adapter. If not, then wait until you get to the Dyno again and have him load that map and start from there. He should compare the 2 on a few runs to see which makes the better baseline map to start with.
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FYYFF!!!
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wormgear
Expert Class
Posts: 339
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posted October 10, 2007 11:13 AM
Ok I went back to the tuner and asked him about the map.
He defended it as complete. I asked about all the 8's and he said that's what it needed. I showed him the M224-012 map and told him every custom map I looked at had lots of different numbers throughout the throttle settings and I couldn't understand how all those 8's could be right on mine. He offered to put it back on the dyno and show me and I let him. We ran it in 4, 5 and 6th gear at various rpm's and throttle positions from two to 9 k. at every rpm we settled on the f/a ratio was perfect. As he as he opened the throttle some to move to a higher rpm it would show it as very slightly lean for a second but go right to the sweet spot wherever he leveled off. We must have done this 20 total times in those three different gears.
Then he said that he could have used the dyno link software for the map and that would have probably put some variation in those numbers but they would have been insignificant . He said the map I came in with was so close that he only needed to make minor adjustments to get it right. Also that the map I came in with was all zeros and as I recall that is true so I guess when you make adjustments at the buttons on the pc3 it doesn't actually modify the map, it just adds or removes to it?
On a different note. Someone mentioned ram air effects and I asked him about it. He said the bikes computer would compensate for that in the same way that it compensates for changes in altitude and temperature.
The guy seemed sincere and knowledgeable to me. and willing to answer anything I questioned with a detailed explanation and I walked out once again thinking I have a good map.
So what do you guys think? Was I looking at a turd and the guy convinced me it's a gold bar, or is it a gold bar? Or maybe something in-between.....
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GodDamnit there's always such a big temptation to be good, to be good! (Tom Waits)
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