fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
|
posted September 22, 2007 11:45 AM
Remapping requires the use of 2 things -- you need a power commander and you'd need to Dyno the bike to build the new map. "Fuel mapping or remapping "essentially means building a fuel delivery map that adjusts the air to fuel (AFR) mixture at a given RPM and % of throttle. You control/change the precise amount of fuel that the engine gets at each RPM. You also control how much fuel the engine gets depending on how much throttle you give it -- from 0-100%. The Power Commander is an after market computer that is built for your bike and it sits in series with the bike's ECU (Electronic Control Unit) and can alter the amount of fuel as described above. You can read more about it here.
http://www.powercommander.com
The ZX14 and the C14 have been neutered at the factory in the 0-6000 RPM range, in order to keep the engine "tame" to the rider. In fact, the power that's available from the engine in the -6000 RPM range in the 5 lower gears is about 35-40% more than what Kawasaki allows the rider to get. They simply do not allow full throttle capability on these bikes and don't tell you that, so you think you get full throttle when you twist it all the way open, but actually, you're probably somewhere around 15-20% open. They control this electronically up to around 6K RPM by adding a 2nd set of throttle plates over the 1st ones, which are NOT controlled by the throttle, but rather by the ECU -- and they stay fully shut in the lower gears until over 1/2 of the engine redline, resulting in a serious air intake restriction. That's why, if you twist wide open the throttle in 1st, at say 3000 RPM, you'll notice that somewhere around 6000-65000 RPM, the bike seems to just jump away hard. You can actually see this on a Dyno too. By removing the plates, you are allowing full air intake, but the bike was originally designed to restrict the amount of air at these speeds, so when you unblock it by the removing secondary throttle plates, you end up with a higher than normal air to fuel mixture, which can easily burn a hole in your pistons, because the mixture is too lean, causing the engine to run way too hot ...etc. Remapping will increase the Fuel to Air mixture to give you an optimal mix of 12.5 or 13:1 which is what the bike wants to see. It also adds a good 20-25 LBS of TQ at the rear wheel in the 3-5K RPM range which is what you'd want. Remmapping should be done on a Dyno by a tuner. The "downside" for the rider, is that the bike pulls much harder at these speeds. The throttle becomes more sensitive. For me, this isn't a downside; only Kawasaki's meager attempt to keep a rider from hurting themselves by "taming" the bike at low speeds. Most, if not all other big bore bikes from the other manufacturers, are not crippled like this. We know how to fix this. If someone creates a map for this mod on a Dyno, they would likely share it here for others to use. The map can be downloaded to your Power Commander and while it won't be perfect, because if was created for someone else's bike, it will be much better than not having it at all. If for instance he added an aftermarket exhaust and you didn't, the map would not be the same for both bikes. If he made his map at sea level and you weren't at sea level, the maps would need to be altered for your bike...etc. Mapping 101!
____________
FYYFF!!!
   
|
wormgear
Expert Class
Posts: 339
|
posted September 22, 2007 12:42 PM
Ok so when I go to the Dyno are they going to ask me what kind of f/a ratio I want or tell me....
What kind of f/a ratio DO I want for this engine?
____________
GodDamnit there's always such a big temptation to be good, to be good! (Tom Waits)
|
alphlulu2
Parking Attendant
Posts: 7
|
posted September 22, 2007 12:52 PM
Thanks for the detailed response. So it seems, at the end of the day, the remapping then is in some ways like adding a performance module to a car and changing the set up parameters that the car operates under? Forgive me if this is a poor analogy.
If this is at all correct, would there then be a standard map (from a dyno) that we could get to copy onto the power commander which would be pre-established for the plate removal for the c14 specifically, and also not allow the pistons to get burned up?
What about warranty issues? And why wouldnt Kawi offer this if for no other reason than perhaps a competitive advantage?
Thanks
|
Stalwart
Needs a job
Posts: 3360
|
posted September 23, 2007 03:29 PM
quote:
Stewart, help me out there --time to call on the master 
It looks to me that you have to pay to join that group and I'd find it hard to financially support a group with so many clueless idiots.
Steve, they just can't understand how much more remarkable and perhaps even safer the C14 would be with the flies removed. Sure, you could get yourself in trouble with the additional torque but it just might save your bacon too if you find yourself IMMEDIATELY needing to power away from a threat, while loafing around at 3000 or so RPM. The C14 isn't made for the novice rider any more than the ZX14 is, but I suppose those guys need to have something to bitch about when they aren't putting Armor All on their chicken strips.   
Meanwhile, those little salad tossers can stay over there and cry about not having 1000 miles on their bikes, limiting them to under 4000 rpm. OK, I don't have many miles on mine, a wife and two small children reduce the riding time, but it hasn't stopped me, after warming it thoroughly, from seeing the high side of 9500 rpm. Even my wife would like a little better torque out of the bike but like you, I don't really want to have to put mine on a dyno, they are REALLY hard on things! I'll wait for a nice pipe/PC3/map combo to come out before pulling the flies, it's only a matter of time . . .
Stuart
____________
Stuart
________________________________
Ridin' the Trump train.
|
daysoffIride
Novice Class
Posts: 77
|
posted September 23, 2007 06:59 PM
I dont understand this on this particular bike, but , that being said, this planet would be a boring place without guys like this....... We'd all be having the same crap rammed down our throats.....
|
Cenla14
Parking Attendant
Posts: 11
|
posted September 23, 2007 07:06 PM
quote:
It looks to me that you have to pay to join that group and I'd find it hard to financially support a group with so many clueless idiots.
No the site is free, also no extra charge for the cluelessness.
quote:
Steve, they just can't understand how much more remarkable and perhaps even safer the C14 would be with the flies removed. Sure, you could get yourself in trouble with the additional torque but it just might save your bacon too if you find yourself IMMEDIATELY needing to power away from a threat, while loafing around at 3000 or so RPM. The C14 isn't made for the novice rider any more than the ZX14 is, but I suppose those guys need to have something to bitch about when they aren't putting Armor All on their chicken strips.
Most of us bought the bike for the inovations not the raw power, even thow the potential is there and has its place for unlocking it.
quote:
Meanwhile, those little salad tossers can stay over there and cry about not having 1000 miles on their bikes, limiting them to under 4000 rpm. OK, I don't have many miles on mine, a wife and two small children reduce the riding time, but it hasn't stopped me, after warming it thoroughly, from seeing the high side of 9500 rpm.
yeah I waited the 150 miles too no use in being too hard on the tires right. Do like how well the rev limiter works saves from haveing to crush the gears don't you think?
quote:
Even my wife would like a little better torque out of the bike but like you, I don't really want to have to put mine on a dyno, they are REALLY hard on things! I'll wait for a nice pipe/PC3/map combo to come out before pulling the flies, it's only a matter of time . . .
Stuart
My wife was cool with it especially at the top side of 140, but she's a whiney ass chicken too, so it suites us both.
|
fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
|
posted September 23, 2007 08:30 PM
quote:
Ok so when I go to the Dyno are they going to ask me what kind of f/a ratio I want or tell me....
What kind of f/a ratio DO I want for this engine?
The tuner who tunes your bike on the Dyno will know what the AFR should be -- generally around 12.5-14:1. The AFR's are standard for most engines, car, bike or other internal combustion gas powered motors. Some run it richer for the track...
Stuart, the site is free!
For those of you who don't know, the bike really does perform and run way better with the mods I've described. Though the bike lacks NO power at RPM's over 5500 or so, you have to realize that in the city or in traffic, you're rarely in the higher RPM range and when you need to make quick maneuvers, low end grunt is key. Wonder why Honda doesn't neuter the Wing or the ST1300, or why Yam doesn't neuter the FJR... 
Last time I rode a Wing, I was amazed at how hard it pulled at 2K, UNLIKE the C14...
The C14 is a big heavy bike and it needs low end power to get it moving -- not "manners".
____________
FYYFF!!!
|
fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
|
posted September 23, 2007 08:37 PM
quote:
quote:
Ok so when I go to the Dyno are they going to ask me what kind of f/a ratio I want or tell me....
What kind of f/a ratio DO I want for this engine?
The tuner who tunes your bike on the Dyno will know what the AFR should be -- generally around 12.5-14:1. The AFR's are standard for most engines, car, bike or other internal combustion gas powered motors. Some run it richer for the track...
Stuart, the site is free!
For those of you who don't know, the bike really does perform and run way better with the mods I've described. Though the bike lacks NO power at RPM's over 5500 or so, you have to realize that in the city or in traffic, you're rarely in the higher RPM range and when you need to make quick maneuvers, low end grunt is key. Wonder why Honda doesn't neuter the Wing or the ST1300, or why Yam doesn't neuter the FJR...
Last time I rode a Wing, I was amazed at how hard it pulled at 2K, UNLIKE the C14...
The C14 is a big heavy bike and it needs low end power to get it moving -- not "manners".
quote:
Thanks for the detailed response. So it seems, at the end of the day, the remapping then is in some ways like adding a performance module to a car and changing the set up parameters that the car operates under? Forgive me if this is a poor analogy.
If this is at all correct, would there then be a standard map (from a dyno) that we could get to copy onto the power commander which would be pre-established for the plate removal for the c14 specifically, and also not allow the pistons to get burned up?
What about warranty issues? And why wouldnt Kawi offer this if for no other reason than perhaps a competitive advantage?
Thanks
Maps are made for the bike that runs on that Dyno, but can be copied and downloaded to your PC3; it may not be perfect, but will work just fine! Shouldn't be any warranty issues. Kaw did this to keep the bike "tame"...so they wouldn't be offering this -- they really believe their way is better; I don't.
____________
FYYFF!!!
|
gpz1100
Expert Class
Posts: 147
|
posted September 23, 2007 08:54 PM
quote:
[I don't really want to have to put mine on a dyno, they are REALLY hard on things! I'll wait for a nice pipe/PC3/map combo to come out before pulling the flies, it's only a matter of time . . .
Stuart
Stuart, how is dynoing a bike any different than riding it up to 9500 rpm on the street? The air flow might not be there, but load wise how is it that much different?
Even if there is a map out for your particular combo, each bike has some variation to it. That map may need some tweaking for your particular bike.
|
Stalwart
Needs a job
Posts: 3360
|
posted September 24, 2007 12:09 PM
quote:
Stuart, how is dynoing a bike any different than riding it up to 9500 rpm on the street? The air flow might not be there, but load wise how is it that much different?
Even if there is a map out for your particular combo, each bike has some variation to it. That map may need some tweaking for your particular bike.
First of all, I've yet to see a dyno operator let the oil temp reach normal operating temperature. There was one exception, I saw a dyno that was used for offshore boat engines and he had a water dyno with 18,000 gallons of storage and was able to let the engine warm thoroughly under moderate load.
Unless you are going out for a top speed run, drag limited, you can never load the engine of a vehicle as hard as a dyno can. When I run the bike to 9,500 is for a very brief time and the bike is accelerating but never held at it's maximum load. I do allow my engines to break-in with a fairly large range of RPM's but only when it is fully warm. If you are simply using a intertia dyno, then you shouldn't REALLY be subjecting the engine to it's full output like a that of an absorptive type dyno.
You're right, there will be variations bike to bike but if they have the same equipment that should be fairly small. Altitude, temperature, humidty will also vary and you should have a map as close to these parameters as practical but if you travel at all or ride in all seasons, your map will be a bit off anyway. If these EFI systems were of the "closed loop" variety we wouldn't have to even bother tuning with minor mods but because they are of a speed/density "open loop" type we have to get an appropriate map.
____________
Stuart
________________________________
Ridin' the Trump train.
|
GTR1400
Parking Attendant
Posts: 19
|
posted September 25, 2007 04:18 PM
Mine have been out for nearly a month now. I modded the stock air filter, exhaust still stock
Custom mapped by me via DJ PCIII, DJ Wideband commander, DJ LCD display and my handy dandy PDA. The DJ LCD display is loaded with my 5 different custom map settings and is switchable at a flick of a switch.
The mapping parameters are much different when doing it on the fly (while riding)compared to sitting on a dyno. My A/F readings were ranging between 12:8 to 13:2.
I need to do this with my ZX14 since it was custom mapped in a friggin dyno booth.
I will be installing the Holeshot exhaust in a bit.
|
fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
|
posted September 25, 2007 04:58 PM
You did this on a C14? Do you have a map for it that you'd share with us? It's got to be a damn good map if it was done on the fly! Do you know if the AFR was abnormally high on the C14 when you yanked the flies before you mapped, or can we just yank 'em and forget the PC3?
____________
FYYFF!!!
|
Cenla14
Parking Attendant
Posts: 11
|
posted September 25, 2007 05:29 PM
FBA he talks about it here also but does not say what the initial AF was and I don't know from where but aparantly there is an electronic version coming out to bypass
http://www.concours.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35492
|
Stalwart
Needs a job
Posts: 3360
|
posted September 25, 2007 06:59 PM
Just a FUCKIN TRE, from that Ivan!
____________
Stuart
________________________________
Ridin' the Trump train.
|
Cenla14
Parking Attendant
Posts: 11
|
posted September 25, 2007 07:16 PM
actually I was talking about what gtr_1965 was talking about....seems he is the same as GTR1400 here.
I will give respect where it is due, you guys have a lot more time in on the ZX14, I mainly bought the C14 because I put around 40k per year on whatever I ride/ drive to work, so for me it was the warranty. I'm all for squeezing out every drop of power as long as it doesn't screw with the warrany. That being said if a resister wired in a circuit( or something that can be readily unplugged) can be used to gain the power yet removed for warranty work I am game, I don't like the thought of pulling the tank to put the butterfly's back in just so the stealer can fix something. I am lazy in that manner. I understand what Fred is trying to accomplish, however I would also like to see something to reprogram the factory ecm. Time will tell and untill then I will keep reading.
|
fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
|
posted September 25, 2007 07:32 PM
Ya, I sent him a message on that board and ya, Stalwart is right...it's probably a P.O.S. $79.00 TRE. I posted there already on that. Fred is getting the TRE, I'd bet...from Ivan the Fuckhead. I can make one for 2 cents...see my posts there on that....LOL.
____________
FYYFF!!!
|
TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted September 25, 2007 07:38 PM
Fred on the other board is one of the only ones that is taking this seriously. He is looking into a some sort or electronics to get them to open earlier.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
|
fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
|
posted September 25, 2007 08:03 PM
It's only a TRE Ted...big downside is that you lose your gear position indicator. Been there and done that. Still need to remap with a TRE and you can make one for 2 cents...a 280 ohm resistor is all it is. There are plenty of posts here about that. A few guys here and on ZX14ninja.com have tried the other approach, with no positive results. Fred admits that it's a TRE on the thread now.
____________
FYYFF!!!
|
TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted September 26, 2007 08:29 AM
I saw that, but at least he is seeing the light as to what you have been saying. The TRE thing will at least the TRE thing will let him know if it is something he wants to move forward with.
One thing totally confuses me. WhyTF would they go through all the trouble to put in VVT just to neuter it? I realize it would help in 6th, but really?!?!
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
|
fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
|
posted September 26, 2007 09:55 AM
Well, as someone who owns the ZX14 and the C, I can tell you that you can feel something more in the lower ranges on the C, whereas the ZX14 feels neutered all the way up to 6K or more. The C14 really starts to make good strong power at about 4500, now I'm not sure if that's all related to the VVT, but I think it may have much to do with that. I think the neutering has more to do with keeping the throttle "tame and smooth". Once you take the flies out of the equation, you'd see that while the throttle really is more linear, it has much more reaction to the slightest movement, which some may deem as "wild". I got used to that eons ago with my FJR and my Busa, so for me, there was no learning curve when I un-choked my ZX. It sort of reminds me of the big bad muscle cars of the late 60's and early 70's where when you hit the ever-so-loose feeling gas pedal at low speeds, the car would literally throw you against the seat hard. These big bore motors tend to display those types of characteristcs, whereas the smaller, higher compression engines, like a 10R for example, does not. I think they could have just forgotten about the VVT and not bothered with the secondary's to get to that same curve, but maybe it's an emissions thing...I really don't know anymore. What I find curious though, is all the hooplaw and talk about removing the flies (at concours.org), but only after I stirred a potful of shit about it...ya notice that? Must have been the Anal Retard Peckerhead comment I made here, eh?
Yup -- they wanna kill me now....been one damn trainwreck after another with me over there...LOL
____________
FYYFF!!!
|
TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted September 26, 2007 10:20 AM
They are sensative over there, they hate me as well for agreeing with you.
But I think they are beginning to see that you are trying to give them good info. You are just a bit tough on them.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
|
Stalwart
Needs a job
Posts: 3360
|
posted September 26, 2007 12:43 PM
Shit, if they have a problem with you two they are gonna HATE me when I get in a pissy mood . . . or drunk.
____________
Stuart
________________________________
Ridin' the Trump train.
|
TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted September 26, 2007 01:53 PM
quote:
Shit, if they have a problem with you two they are gonna HATE me when I get in a pissy mood . . . or drunk.
LOL!
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
|
Cenla14
Parking Attendant
Posts: 11
|
posted September 26, 2007 02:37 PM
I don't think anyone hates ya'll for the coments or calling anyone a peckerhead, and everyone is anal about something, if nothing else walk in on your old lady getting slammed by another dude and see how anal you get(of course this varies with number of years together) but you get the point. Mine is more of a warranty issue than anything. As for Fred from what I understand no matter what he owns he likes to tinker and post results.
|
fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
|
posted September 26, 2007 03:50 PM
Fred is a knowledgeable contributor indeed! I enjoy his posts. I always start on the boards by ruffling a few feathers - makes for some good fun and separates the men from the boys eh?
You've gotta see of the older posts here from me and Stalwart -- now that's some seriously funny shit...you've got name calling, defamatory and derogative statements...pictures and all! :P
I wouldn't concern myself much with warranty, especially if you're on good terms with the dealer.
Changing an exhaust could technically cause warranty issues, but it's very rare and the dealer would have to be a real jackass to not cover warranty due to mods like that or fly removal unless you burn a piston from lean conditions...Removing the flies has no detrimental effect on the engine, nor the power train, but you have to ensure that your mix is not running too lean, which is why I'm waiting for a good map. IMO, if the powertrain can handle full pin at high RPM's, this mod would be a walk through the park on your driveshaft.
____________
FYYFF!!!
|
|
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC