fastestbusaaround
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posted September 19, 2007 03:19 PM
 Edited By: fastestbusaaround on 19 Sep 2007 16:23
Flies out has the same impact as on the ZX14!!!!!
If you sift back in time through my posts over a year ago, you'll find I was one the 1st ones here to discover the power down low that we we're all wondering about the lack of. I started my 14 cold, got on, whacked the throttle and it scared the living piss outta me. I wasn't expecting the bike to lift up to the sky at only 3500 RPM. Then someone here took it a step further and discovered the secondary throttle plates issue. The rest is history.
Well today, I did the exact same thing on my C14 and low and behold, I discovered the amazing low end grunt this puppy has corked up its ass!! Much like the ZX, it harbours some serious low end TQ -- about 20+ FT LBS of RW TQ I'd say, at about 3500. She lifted hard and fast at low RPM. I only got as far as 2nd before the flies closed up on me, but there's no question this is the mod to do on the C14. This will complete the bike. I may consider only doing a PC3 and the flies with the stock pipe as I know it'll have more low end that way and it'll be a "sleeper". Though I don't like the fugly pig-ass pipe, I'd like the bike to stay nice and quite. Just need a map. I'm ordering the PC this week from Brock and once I get a map, I'll post my "seat-of-the-pants" Dyno results!
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FYYFF!!!
   
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wormgear
Expert Class
Posts: 339
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posted September 19, 2007 04:25 PM
Excellent. You know I'm doing mine too as soon as I get my exhaust and pc3. But I'm confused. Did you remove the flys? If so what do you mean by "I only got as far as 2nd before the flies closed up on me" and if you didn't remove them what did you do?
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GodDamnit there's always such a big temptation to be good, to be good! (Tom Waits)
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fastestbusaaround
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posted September 19, 2007 07:45 PM
WG -- The flies are still in the bike. Here's how it works and how I know what I know: When the engine is cold, it runs on a "warm up" (rich) map, which also keeps the flies fully opened for the 1st 30 seconds to a minute or so -- not longer and certainly not as long as the ZX14; this was what a few of us discovered very early on last year. So today, I literally got on the bike on the street before starting it, started it up and hammered the throttle in 1st right away with no idle or warm up. I saw, and was expecting a HUGE gain on the bottom end, so big that she lifted at slightly under 4K in 1st, just from twisting the throttle hard from the onset. This behavior is consistent with the ZX14. I got as far as 2nd at about 6K until the "warm up" map quit on me. I can tell you that when you do this mod, you'll see serious bottom end punch in all the gears. This bike will lift under straight power in 1st and possibly a bit in 2nd as well at speeds much lower than that you'd get with the flies in. You will be amazed at the power gains. Removing the flies is easy, although you'll have to be careful not to WOT while on the way to the Dyno shop, so you don't run that lean condition. This bike has much taller gearing than the ZX14 and as a result, hovers at the 3500-5k range longer than the ZX14. That range on the ZX14 is where you'll get that 17:1 AFR and I'd imagine the same thing holds true on the C14. The map you'll make will fix that problem. Now you get it!
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FYYFF!!!
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donut burner
Parking Attendant
Posts: 1
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posted September 20, 2007 11:08 AM
quote:
Removing the flies is easy, although you'll have to be careful not to WOT while on the way to the Dyno shop, so you don't run that lean condition.
Get it, but what is the mod (links) with directions and reprocussions warranty wise???
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Rob
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fastestbusaaround
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posted September 20, 2007 06:13 PM
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=27&TID=25246
Now read on and remember this -- be careful how you attack those screws holding the throttle plates (flies) in. You need a long and large enough Philips head to do this. Careful not to drop them down the intakes...you can tie the throttle closed to ensure that doesn't happen. This is how the ZX14 is done. I'd imagine the C14 is the same. I tried the bike about 5 times now from a cold start and it definitely pulls way way harder with the cold map running (flies open). You'll see a huge difference at 2.5-5k. The net effect is a bit less dramatic than on the ZX14, only due to the VVT, weight and taller gears, but it's a serious power gain nonetheless. Good luck!
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FYYFF!!!
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted September 20, 2007 07:43 PM
I have a thought. It seems the computer detects the position of the secondary flies from a position sensor. It would be easy to bias the sensor to tell the computer they were closed (with a shunt resistor) when they were actually partly open. That resistor could be connected to a switch and disconnected at will and the thing would be normal, Flip the switch and the flies would be partially open enough to give you back most of the torque.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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fastestbusaaround
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posted September 20, 2007 08:55 PM
There's been a lot of (fruitless) discussion on this at ZX14.com Ted. Everyone wanted to do this, but in the end, no one had a simple or even working solution that I know of. Removal and remap is the easiest and cheapest way to go. It was proven time and time again on ZX14.com. It's not a position sensor either from my recollect, but rather a stepper motor that controls the opening and closing (unless there's a sensor within the motor). You could also use the TRE to do this, but you lose the GPS indicator. Trust me and everyone here who's done this, once you remove the flies, you'd never want to go back to stock; no one here really has yet. The bike is very manageable with the flies out, even more so than the ZX.
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TedG
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posted September 20, 2007 09:41 PM
I looked at the schematic and there is indeed a position sensor for the main and secondary valves. this mod would only involve a resistor and a switch and some wire. I may experiment.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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fastestbusaaround
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posted September 21, 2007 02:29 AM
Though I'm going to pull them altogether, I'd be curious to know what you find!
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TedG
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posted September 21, 2007 07:29 AM
Stepper motor algorithms need to know "home position" or on the fly "where they are" to be on any use. Some do it by just backing up to a stop or moving forward to a stop then holding and stepping down to a position. Looking at the test procedure( mind you I only glanced at it) it looks like the motor to move the valves are voltage controlled and not stepper motors. So it looks like the computer reads the position sensor and just adjusts the voltage (D/A converter) and when it reads the position sensors voltage (A/D) it just adjusts according to RPM, throttle position, etc. So just fooling the ECU to think they are further closed is a matter of biasing the position sensor.
This would allow a much less extensive mod that could be removed or disabled to avoid warranty issues.
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nswenson
Novice Class
Posts: 46
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posted September 21, 2007 07:58 AM
quote:
Stepper motor algorithms need to know "home position" or on the fly "where they are" to be on any use. Some do it by just backing up to a stop or moving forward to a stop then holding and stepping down to a position. Looking at the test procedure( mind you I only glanced at it) it looks like the motor to move the valves are voltage controlled and not stepper motors. So it looks like the computer reads the position sensor and just adjusts the voltage (D/A converter) and when it reads the position sensors voltage (A/D) it just adjusts according to RPM, throttle position, etc. So just fooling the ECU to think they are further closed is a matter of biasing the position sensor.
This would allow a much less extensive mod that could be removed or disabled to avoid warranty issues.
I would much prefer this approach rather than pulling the secondaries. This way you could mount a switch or adjustment knob and change it on the fly. Very interested in what you find out.
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Nathan
San Francisco, CA
'08 Concours 14 ABS
'00 K1200LT
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
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posted September 21, 2007 08:16 AM
quote:
So just fooling the ECU to think they are further closed is a matter of biasing the position sensor.
I think this is much easier said than done... there's 2 years of work into this in the 14 side of the site...
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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TedG
Moderator
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posted September 21, 2007 08:50 AM
quote:
quote:
So just fooling the ECU to think they are further closed is a matter of biasing the position sensor.
I think this is much easier said than done... there's 2 years of work into this in the 14 side of the site...
No doubt. But has anyone tried this approach? Remember what I do for a living. Those things that rotate are stepper motor driven and guess who wrote the code for some of the applications. Also we have many motor driven applications that use this kind of system and guess who wrote many of them.
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fastestbusaaround
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posted September 21, 2007 12:13 PM
Edited By: fastestbusaaround on 21 Sep 2007 13:15
Don't forget that when you change the position of the plates, mapping considerations are required. The ZX14 runs as high as 17:1 AFR at WOT at 3500 RPM, when you pull the plates without mapping. Careful what you do now -- 
Fish is right -- and the mapping is very importtant.
After a week on the C14, I pulled the ZX out today and banged the throttle in 1st at 3500...forgetting I was on the ZX and not the C14...Damn that was a bit scary, not expecting her to lift to the sky at low RPM.
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FYYFF!!!
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TedG
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posted September 21, 2007 12:39 PM
Remember what I am thinking of is not as drastic as the complete removal. I am thinking of maybe a 10 to 15% increase in the fly opening. Just enough to give you back some low end without having too much effect.
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R6Richard
Novice Class
Posts: 36
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posted September 21, 2007 01:36 PM
quote:
There's been a lot of (fruitless) discussion...you'd never want to go back to stock; no one here really has yet.
What does that mean: no one "really has"?
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fastestbusaaround
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posted September 21, 2007 01:53 PM
Edited By: fastestbusaaround on 21 Sep 2007 15:03
Most, if not all who have removed the flies, have not re-installed them. The odd one here and there who found the bike to be too strong may have, but from what I've seen here, that's would be rare, if at all. That's what it means...
Ted, I understand -- and given that scenario, it would probably be fine (but who knows unless you Dyno it) -- IMO, the bike has a way better feel and far more linear power delivery once you "un-neuter" it. The C14 mod isn't as drastic with the flies open in the low end as the ZX14; it is very different and very welcome, but nothing that would scare one like an un-neutered, piped ZX14 in any case. It has about the same grunt in the low end as an FJR (above 3K), which is great, but it's not a Hayabusa. The FJR still has more at 2000 than even a ZX14 at 2000 RPM. It just seems like you'd have to do a lot of work and research to do what you want to do for something you may never really use. As I stated before and I really believe this, once you've gotten a taste of a "fly-less" C14, you probably wouldn't want to go back to flies in. This bike has smooth power delivery at low RPM's but when you unrestrict it, it gets better - much.
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TedG
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posted September 21, 2007 04:17 PM
What I have failed to mention is I hate the PCs. I bought one and it failed about 100 miles away from home on my 12. Sending it in they did nothing for 3 weeks and finally I showed up at their door and got them to give me another one. So I don't want to have one fail 500 miles away and be stuck with no flies depending on a PC. I would rather live without the extra power than deal with those dickheads again.
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fastestbusaaround
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posted September 21, 2007 05:00 PM
Edited By: fastestbusaaround on 21 Sep 2007 18:02
LOL...
Would be nice if we could re-flash the ECU to get the right mapping for that ...
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Stalwart
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posted September 21, 2007 05:39 PM
Edited By: Stalwart on 21 Sep 2007 18:40
One problem people had with the PCs on the ZX14 was improper grounding of the unit. Having the ground wire smashed behind the plastic coolant reservoir was an issue for some.
One could always get a TRE from "Ivan the Terrible"  and loose not only their gear indicator but also $70 for a stupid resistor and still have an incorrect A/F ratio.
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Stuart
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Ridin' the Trump train.
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fastestbusaaround
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posted September 21, 2007 05:49 PM
-- I expected nothing less from the master of sting!!:P Well -- I've already started pissing them off on another board -- lookie here bud...
http://concours.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34730
Ted, most of those guys are classic anal retards there...what a bunch of whinny assed peckerheads  ...Time to wreak havoc there
Stewart, help me out there --time to call on the master
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FYYFF!!!
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donnbauer
Novice Class
Posts: 56
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posted September 21, 2007 07:29 PM
It would seem that one could re-write the code to tell the ECU to open the flys and run rich like its cold all the time or some such combination. That to me would be the ultimate mod to get the power and grunt with out removing interior parts. I will however do the PCIII and pull the flys out if I have to , all your talk gives me serious wood for more low end and more wheelies. I really appricate all you tech guys out there on the edge giving me the guts to follow your leads and mod my C14. YOU CRAZY KIDS KICK ASS!
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Donn
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TedG
Moderator
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posted September 21, 2007 09:06 PM
Edited By: TedG on 21 Sep 2007 22:36
quote:
-- I expected nothing less from the master of sting!!:P Well -- I've already started pissing them off on another board -- lookie here bud...
http://concours.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34730
Ted, most of those guys are classic anal retards there...what a bunch of whinny assed peckerheads ...Time to wreak havoc there
Stewart, help me out there --time to call on the master
That is no shit. They listen to Fred over there and no one else. Extremelean posted over there and they blew him off. I politely bitch slapped them.
The bad thing about not dynoing it, we will never know if we have the right fuel ratio, Although I do have access to a dyno if necessary. Winter is coming and that will give us time to fool with the things.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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fastestbusaaround
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posted September 22, 2007 03:49 AM
He just loves to hear himself talk...BikerBoy lives down the street from me and warned me about him already. I saw your post regarding Extremelean and had a good laugh --
In the past, I've always dynoed my bikes for proper tune. The only reason I won't dyno her, is because I did my 10R twice last year and after the 2nd time, she never ran the same again. I lost some compression and she never felt quite as good again. My ZX14 uses a map from Brock and while I know it's never going to maximize the potential to it's fullest, I know I won't be freaking every few minutes as he bangs he limiter... 
At least I won't be running dangerous AFR's.
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FYYFF!!!
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alphlulu2
Parking Attendant
Posts: 7
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posted September 22, 2007 08:59 AM
Guys-
Forgive me for sounding naive, but I think I understand how to mod the plates (removal - great link btw), but what does remapping mean and how does one remap?
Also, whats the downside in removing the plates and remapping, I have an 08 C14.
Thanks
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