fish_antlers
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posted April 25, 2007 05:50 AM
quote:
You're both right, and here's why.
DNA can make statements about the bike and the technology, and make their recommendations to the dealers about service. BUT, they cannot tell the dealers what to do. The dealers are their customers and really very little more. The OE makes the product and as a wholesaler can choose who they sell their products to and at what price. They can set requirements to be an approved seller of their products, can elect to provide support to the dealer in the form of marketing and advertising. But the dealer is an independent businessman and he can elect to run any kind of shop he wants, short of commiting illegal acts.
It sounds to me that Fish heard their recommendations and stated them accurately, and DNA restated these RECOMMENDATIONS to ma2ra.
Doug
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OddDuc
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posted April 25, 2007 12:28 PM
The lengthened maintenance likely could be attributed to just being less conservative with the mileage estimate on valve clearance inspection. It's really a minimal "improvement". 25% mileage increase. Now it they had it at 15K miles they'd start to have something to crow about. Perhaps with some of the aftermarket parts the valvetrain could go that long.
Oh I bet there's been alot of bitching by the dealers from customers giving them hell and losing money over this. Blah blah blah. If the 600 mile is just an oil change $150 is already way more than enough. Now all will fall back on the standard wording outs and doubletalk to just shut anyone up and get back to charging as they please.
It's funny how manufacturers can control a retailer from selling for less (MAP) yet they somehow can't put a cap on it. That has always struck me funny. They either have the power to control retail price or they don't. I don't see how an inbetween could stand.
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dougmeyer
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posted April 25, 2007 03:08 PM
They can't control them from selling for less any more than selling for more. The market provides the only controls. It's Econ 101 - Supply and Demand. The lower edge of the price envelope is determined by the point at which the seller loses money on the transaction and the upper edge is determined by the customers unwillingness to pay.
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OddDuc
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posted April 25, 2007 03:42 PM
Yet a company can restrict a retailer of it's products from advertising said reduced prices. I forget which site there was a group buy where the seller can't advertise under msrp or a set minimum amount. Heaven forbid one of that company's dealers make the other dealers look bad or take their sales. Supposedly, if the price is said on the open net he'll close the deal so the company doesn't cut him off. Minimum Advertised Pricing sounds like a control to me.
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dougmeyer
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posted April 25, 2007 09:35 PM
Sort of but not quite. Restrictions on advertised prices by a product's supplier to a retailer don't actually violate anti trust laws because they don't restrict "selling" the product, only the advertised price. The leverage by the wholesaler is usually in the form of denying co-op advertising payments to the dealer if he doesn't "toe the line" in the ad. Can't blame them for not wanting to pay for advertising they don't feel is in the best interest of the overall dealer network. I thnk it was illegal for a while but then that was challenged and overturned. I went through it with Shoei helmets. I'm not sure if any of the OEM's currently have any of these policies in effect.
Doug
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fish_antlers
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posted April 25, 2007 09:40 PM
Doug... please explain this in detail... I'm curious (as are many people out there) as to "why" an OEM can't dictate the price of their product... Odd is raising a great point, however I think many of us would like to see you expand on your explanation.
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dougmeyer
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posted April 26, 2007 09:36 AM
All these questions are addressed by Antitrust Laws.
I suggest a perusal of the Wikipedia entry on the subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitrust
Here is a quote from Wikipedia on "Minimum Advertised Pricing" as an example:
"Resale price maintenance, commonly referred to as MAP (Minimum Advertised Price) within the United States, is the practice whereby a manufacturer and its distributors agree that the latter will sell the former's product at certain prices (resale price maintenance), at or above a price floor (minimum resale price maintenance) or at or below a price ceiling (maximum resale price maintenance). These rules prevent resellers from competing too fiercely on price and thus driving down profits. Some argue that the manufacturer may do this because it wishes to keep resellers profitable, and thus keeping the manufacturer profitable. Others contend that minimum resale price maintenance, for instance, overcomes a failure in the market for distributional services by ensuring that distributors who invest in promoting the manufacturer's product are able to recoup the additional costs of such promotion in the price they charge consumers. Some manufacturers also defend resale price maintenance by saying it ensures fair returns, both for manufacturer and reseller and that governments do not have right to interfere with freedom to make contracts without very good reason."
Any lawyers in the group?
Doug
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fish_antlers
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posted May 10, 2007 01:49 PM
 Edited By: fish_antlers on 10 May 2007 14:56
http://www.ducati.com/en/bikes/service/maintenance.jhtml;jsessionid=DX2SOMFY2GYPYCRNCB2SFFAKFUIHUIV4
screenshot:
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DUCeditor
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posted May 14, 2007 09:51 AM
This is a very valuable article. And having this information 'out there' should over time benefit not only Ducati owners but, hopefully, the Ducati dealer network itself.
I've been involved with Ducatis for some years and, as a writer for Ducati.com, with the company itself. And as an owner of a 2007 GT1000 I have personally experienced the tensions this issue can create between a dealer and a customer.
In the end I believe resolution of the issue will require three things:
1) Every bike will have to be set up correctly at the factory. There are too many reports of poorly adjusted belts and FI showing up at either set up (if a shop is conscientious enough - and making enough on each sale - for this to be discovered), or at the 600 mile service, for shops to just assume everything is OK and commit themselves to charge for only the 1 hr of shop time Ducati says should be necessary.
2) Ducati-branded after market accessories have to be good enough to keep the after-market dollars flowing into dealerships and not non-Ducati-branded sources. For the GT1000 this has so far not been the case with repeated reports about ill-shaped and poorly welded rear racks, mediocre quality (despite the premium price) pannier cases and the like.
3) Ducati will need to police and discipline any 'bad actors' in their dealer network while AT THE SAME TIME really giving a listening ear to the issues facing the good ones. Past practices that made dealerships at odds with company will need to be permanently discontinued. This includes such things as requiring dealers to take delivery of undesirable models to get the inventory that they can sell.
I am hopeful that Ducati has chosen a new course for themselves. Certainly the desirability of the new models and the cost-reduction program suggest that is so. If it is it will benefit both we Ducati riders and the dealer network on whom we (and the company) depend.
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DUCeditor
Ducatis Unlimited Connection
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"The red blur you saw? Just me on my Ducati"
`93 900SS "La bella Rossa"
`07 GT1000 "Sommessa Donna"
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OddDuc
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posted May 15, 2007 06:46 PM
1)Yes, they should be right from the factory. It shouldn't require that dealers catch or correct their mistakes. Problems should be a rare exception, not the rule.
"if a shop is conscientious enough - and making enough on each sale - for this to be discovered"
I would think pride in one's work should make being conscientious the standard not the exception at both factory and dealer. The resultant trouble free product will keep customers happy. While bad news can travel fast, as in extra mark-ups and faulty FI, the good will be spread by each of those happy customers. Solidly multiplying with each new customer spreading the good word.
As for making enough on each sale I have to ask what defines too little? There is usually a lot of talk stressing how important and involved the set up is. Half of the time it's referring to catching the afore mentioned mistakes. Which really should fall under warranty work. That would light a fire under the factory's ass with enough of those claims coming up the chain. But instead it comes down to the customer must finance the quality control inspection(s) to catch any claims before they potentially become large. Thusly doubling the benefit to the manufacturer and it's insurance.
The other half, people talk about their dealers setting the suspension for their weight and riding style. Now that I would classify as an extra. Much like having your own pit crew. Those having experience at setting up their own machines for the track wouldn't have much need for the extra time and money involved. But for those without the knowledge it would be worth a fee.
2) Factory labled accessories should be of top quality and priced equivalent to, or minimally over, after-market alternatives. Perhaps including installation in the price. Make it simple and trouble free for customers to add on or change out parts to personalize their rides. Ride in, buy the accessories you want, the shop installs them, and you ride off happy. No fuss, no muss.
3) The immediate maximum dollar seeking ones need to be culled from the herd. Both sides need to realize they sink or swim together. If the customer sees their products and services as higher quality than the money expended he won't have much want or need to search for alternatives.
Forcing dealers to invest in the dogs of the line in order to sell the jewels is a bad thing. If they truely have bad sellers they will just have to slash prices and use incentives to make them more desirable. Both factory and dealer cutting their margins may keep it in the black or atleast minimalize the red.
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fish_antlers
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posted May 15, 2007 08:12 PM
friend of mine made a good point today, and DNA should listen up... over 90% of 1098 owners have swithed from the big 4... they've done this because they BELIEVE they are buying quality and everything that goes along with the brand name.... that shouldn't include dealers screwing people over on things, jacking up costs etc...
this will only hurt the brand in the long run if it continues.
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dougmeyer
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posted May 16, 2007 11:43 AM
Odd, I disagree slightly. The purpose of a "setup" and PDI (pre delivery inspection) is not to catch mistakes. It is to "finish" the delivery process. As you know, bikes are run after manufacture and checked at the factory, various items are either removed, or left off for crating. Less and less is required of the dealer. today. OEs are doing this precisely to reduce reliance on dealers. Fifteen years ago, when I was a dealer there was far more to do than there is today, carbs to synch, oils to be changed out. I felt comfortable in charging 300 bucks in set up and freight. Today, I believe that is excessive. From what I saw when my 1098 came out of the crate, a very complete job could be done in 1-2 hours MAX. The injected Jap bikes are the same. They don't want to leave it to a high school kid to bolt the wheels and brakes on a 175 mph motorcycle.
A dealer who expects to be around tomorrow needs to make 15% gross on a motorcycle sale. If he cuts the selling price he has to add SOMETHING back in, doesn't matter what he calls it. Most motorcycle pricing reflects a 15 to 20% gross margin and a REASONABLE standardized PDI or Setup, applied across the board, serves to even out the margin and keep the dealer in business.
Doug
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OddDuc
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posted May 17, 2007 12:06 PM
You were synchronizing carbs at prep in 92? I thought the factories did that and plugged the holes. I remember my old bandit's carbs were.
I wasn't really questioning the retail margin. I took his statement as meaning, making enough on set-up fees and enough at 600miles to check for and find faults.
Out of curiosity, I just looked over my paperwork from every bike I've bought. You may be correct that prep and freight are standard charges at most places but I have never been charged extra for them. That was on sales from the '88 to '97 at 2 dealers.
It seems to me it would be better all around if that was just calculated into the retail price. Sometimes breaking out charges just leaves people with the feeling they've been had.
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dougmeyer
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posted May 18, 2007 10:45 AM
No I wasn't synching carbs then, but if you go back as far as I do, there was a time.....
The problem with including those charges into the price is that "price" is considered negotiable by most customers, "fees or charges" is not. So, if they are kept seperate, Mr. dealer can recoup some of the lost revenue from the reduced price. If somebody is willing to pay MSRP, but wants to feel that he's getting "a deal", a dealer might "throw in" the prep and freight and be a hero. If you add it in up front, you are charging "over retail" and are accused of gouging
The psychology of the sales process is truly bizarre.......... Why will sombody walk into a clothing store and pay $350 for a suit (that has a 100% markup) with a smile on his face, yet when he wants to buy a helmet (that has a 40% markup) from a motorcycle dealer it becomes a barter . I am SO glad out of that circus.
Doug
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OddDuc
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posted May 18, 2007 08:01 PM
I'm no fan of the haggling process. The gamesmanship is too much like poker and generates adversarial stands. I would rather not be at odds with them. I'm quite satisfied with deals where the seller quotes his price and I either take it or I don't. If agreement is found, both feel the deal is fair. If not, we both go our own ways. I would only counter offer if I was serious to buy immediately and his offer was already close to what I'd go for.
I do look at the msrp quoted by the manufacturers. If the product is of interest, the msrp acceptable, I'll go take a look. Now when a dealer tacks on this, that and the other, to boosts the numbers, I have to gauge it from that msrp. Typically, that means I walk because they've moved it from an acceptable level to one that isn't.
I do bust on those with their market adjustments and such. Those corsairs do harm to the fair dealers and the customers they spike. The skepticism and derision generated in dealings with them is carried over to all the rest. Such as the term "Stealership". While I'm sure there are many that deserve that title there are also ones which do not.
Bikeland's investigation on service costs show those who people can respect and have faith that they will be treated well in any dealings.
I'm surprised that suit markup isn't higher than 100%. I typically buy clothes on sale instead of things like $50 official Harley t-shirts.
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martinc
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posted June 26, 2007 02:56 PM
Ok,here's my whole 2cents...just out of the dealership for the 1st service.
Could be long,but worth the read btw;part 1 deals with the service part,part 2 is some inside info Ducati doesnt want you to know.
PART 1: the service:
After a few problems getting a slot to do the service,my dealer agreed to do it "between" jobs today...only had to wait like 4 hrs...oh well...I was at 1658km,658km past the 1000km mark...had to do it.
Now the service guy was printing the work order...i noticed upon signing it that the list was way long,including belts,etc;
I asked him how much that will cost me,he said about $600!!
Told him to go get a leprechaun to do the job or something....promptly hopped on the bike,go home fetch the owner manual,got back to the dealer.
I then showed him the manual with its whole 7 points 1st inspection.
We argued till i told him that it was pointless and just to do the 7 points per the owner manual and that's it;after all,who own the dang bike?
So he printed a new workorder that said at the top :
"1000km service on a 1098 tricolore; customer ask to only do the service per the owner manual and refuses the throttle bodies synch job as well as the adjustment of the timing belts".
I laughed...
I pointed out to him that this little statement from them didnt constitute anything legal and to not even think to void my warranty in ANY WAY in the future because of that crap...anyways,he did wrote "per owner manual did he...
Took them 1.75 hrs to do the job for a total of $260.59 CAN. incl. oil (Motul 300V)o-ring and filter.
Finally hopped on the bike,put the key in and what do you know...---service---service---
Got back into the dealer,walked to the tech and asked him if he forgot about the removal of the message and what do you think he replied?
"You asked for a service BY-THE-BOOK,and nowhere was it mentioned to remove the service message....
WTF.
A quick talk with the sales manager got them to do it for free...took 30 minutes.
Bad experience overall,but part 2 may shed some light to this all.
PART 2: What Ducati doesnt tell in the 50% less service costs crap.
Inside information after pulling the worms out of the nose of several contacts I have within the industry reveals an interesting fact;
Ducati claim on that 50% less service costs is based,brace yourselves,upon a study made on a Monster 620 on a 40 000km duration!!!
Now where does that leave us,the owners of other 07s that have bodyworks,radiators (oil/water),steering dampers,bolts of all kinds,and whatnots that are not on the little monster variation?
Nowhere...
I was clearly told by the service manager to not get in the curtains at the 12000km tune-up (7500 miles)...it should cost approx. $1400CAN to do it....a little diff. with the $256.88 (less than $300 CAN) quoted in this thread!!!
To which I replied:"we'll see,I may do most of it myself and leave you with the high tech stuff only" to which they almost treatened me with the std warranty void speach.
Seriously...this is not a good experience so far,but the bike,I love it.
Oh,I dunno if its a psych thing or what,but the bike didnt felt like it was working as well after the service than before I got it in....
Your coments are welcome.
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martinc
Parking Attendant
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posted June 26, 2007 03:06 PM
quote:
Yet a company can restrict a retailer of it's products from advertising said reduced prices. I forget which site there was a group buy where the seller can't advertise under msrp or a set minimum amount. Heaven forbid one of that company's dealers make the other dealers look bad or take their sales. Supposedly, if the price is said on the open net he'll close the deal so the company doesn't cut him off. Minimum Advertised Pricing sounds like a control to me.
Arai is 1 example...
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fish_antlers
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posted June 26, 2007 04:02 PM
You could find a different dealer! They're not all like that!
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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martinc
Parking Attendant
Posts: 17
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posted June 26, 2007 06:12 PM
quote:
You could find a different dealer! They're not all like that!
Yeah,do you have any idea how many Ducati dealers there is in Canada?
Here in Montreal region....1.
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fish_antlers
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posted June 26, 2007 06:18 PM
quote:
quote:
You could find a different dealer! They're not all like that!
Yeah,do you have any idea how many Ducati dealers there is in Canada?
Here in Montreal region....1.
I take it that these are the same people that told you you wouldn't have a warranty if imported?
Print out the maintenance article, walk in and put it on their desk.
You owe me a beer!
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martinc
Parking Attendant
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posted November 12, 2007 04:07 AM
Edited By: martinc on 12 Nov 2007 04:08
So,how much did you guys pay for the 2nd service??
Surprise surprise?
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Johnny
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posted November 14, 2007 11:13 PM
Edited By: Johnny on 14 Nov 2007 23:14
My hats off to you guys for having an articulate and civil discussion regarding this important issue. Indeed, it apparently is a disconnect in progress.
The 600 mile service fee is doable. I highly doubt the 7,500 mile service fee is doable.
I was suspicious from the getgo when I read the "up to 50% less maintenance" at the start of the 07 marketing campaign. Sure enough the benchmark was the 620 machine. Does that also factor in the increased interval of 7.5K miles?
The proof will be in the pudding when the first real service costs come in, the 7,500 mile one.
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montesakid
Parking Attendant
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posted November 22, 2007 04:24 PM
Hey, the last post for this is subject is April. It is now November, almost December. Have there been any updates as to DNA's position on the price for service checkups? I was a little confused as to their stand. Did Fish_antlers and MA2RA talk to different people? BTW, I was charged $103 for the 600 mile checkup (I brought my own oil) on my '07 MTS. I am now due for my 7500 mile checkup, I'll let you know what the charge is, probably next week.
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shiz
Parking Attendant
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posted January 08, 2008 03:16 PM
so what are you guys being charged for for the 7500mile service?
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fish_antlers
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posted January 11, 2008 12:37 PM
one of the dealers in this article ("John Valk") is up to even more BS.. check this out...
http://www.bcsportbikes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=95609
quote:
So turns out to battle the fact that they're completely gouging the consumer in price they've done something new to make everyone hate them. Any bike purchased in the US (I have a 749 that was brought up) now costs double to service than a bike purchased in Canada. Yeah that's right, a 1k service at John Valk costs me 2k. The bikes are the same, only difference is mine was originally from Ducati Seattle. Wow... just wow.
Isn't there a law against stuff like this??? 
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