dprejean90
Parking Attendant
Posts: 7
|
posted February 06, 2013 02:08 PM
07 ZX14 SE / Flies and ECU question
I have the 2007 SE and had a few questions. Old topic, but flies in or out? Iv read 100 different Threads on the subject, but still have not received a clear answer. At the moment I have the bike torn down and waiting on a Full Alien head w/ PCV so I pulled the flies. I can still put them back in before putting her back together. Id rather have an expert opinion before making any moves. I was also wondering about the ECU Flash. Should I get the reflash instead of pulling the flies, or should I get both. AND do I even need the reflash with the flies out mod or can I just run the PCV with it?
Thanks DP
  
|
dprejean90
Parking Attendant
Posts: 7
|
posted February 06, 2013 03:35 PM
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
|
zx12mark
Pro
Posts: 1654
|
posted February 06, 2013 04:31 PM
call brock
|
zx13r
Expert Class
Capt-America
Posts: 181
|
posted February 06, 2013 04:55 PM
Throw them away...
____________
Sposored By:
Kawasaki Sports Center
ShoTime Graphics.com
|
JSmooth
Expert Class
Posts: 169
|
posted February 06, 2013 05:02 PM
To answer your question it really depends on what you are wanting. With the flies removed from your bike especially 07 the bike opens up faster the bike a bit more . With that said by adding the PCV it really allows you to control fuel ratio along with AR. With the use of the AH you will gain more HP. Now with that said the ECU reflash allows you to bypass the speed regulator as well as corrects any other issues that Kawasaki has placed on the bike. However for a more in depth answer I would ask Brock, SmokinZX14 (Lee) or Shane661 both are very knowledgeable about this feature. This is the best I could do to break it down Barney level. Now some may say keep your flies in while others like myself will say YANK them suckers out. JMO
|
BIG BLUE_ZX14
Expert Class
Posts: 374
|
posted February 06, 2013 07:30 PM
I can't speak to the reflash but I can tell you about pulling the flies. I had the 2007 ZX14 as well and yes I pulled the flies. It is a much different bike down low with the flies pulled. Since you have a Brocks exhaust and PCV he will give you a flies out map. With the flies out you have a much smoother more linear throttle response from 1K-5K RPMs. Rather than the neutered feeling down low with a sudden launch at 4K RPMs or so. Very predictable and thus more comfortable when excellerating.
____________
2012 Blue on Black ZX14R with Go Faster Stuff...
2007 Blue ZX14 Gone...
|
dprejean90
Parking Attendant
Posts: 7
|
posted February 06, 2013 07:46 PM
Thanks for the input. What I'm looking for is to have the best street prefomence as possible, but I also want her to be ready to go for a weekend run at the track if I choose to do so.... So the ecu flash Is not a necessity with the flies out? Also my local shop is new to their dyno, so I'm kinda skidish about them and the advice they have to offer.when I ordered my parts and told them I pulled the flies they made it seem like it was a mistake and I should have just gotten an ecu flash. They also did not seem to be very knowledgeable on this topic and was reluctant to provide any advise about the flies. I was possibly considering an auto tune instead of the dyno time? In addition with my first post any advice on this?
|
BobC
Pro
Posts: 1736
|
posted February 07, 2013 12:07 AM
 Edited By: BobC on 7 Feb 2013 08:23
On my 2006 bike I pulled the flies and used a PCIII with a custom map. The thing I liked, for the reasons already given, was for ME to be able to choose the throttle opening as required without some computer prog' overriding me.
It might be worth you considering an ECU reflash if you want the speed limiter removed. In 2006 I used a Speedo Healer but would have opted for the reflash if it was available back then.
The extra power low down is a revelation. It's been said many many times on this forum and it's true. Even geared up for top speed runs my bike was in the nines through a quarter. The power at 3,500rpm was doubled by removing the flies and adding fuel.
A set of Brock maps is available for free with your Full Alien Head / PCV set-up and you can purchase a map switch for the PCV, do you really need Autotune?
____________
Candy Thunder Blue 2006 ZZR1400
Stock wheelbase
Max: 205.4 mph in 1.25 miles
2012 ZZR1400 in Golden Blazed Green
Brock CT Full System. etc
Max: 203.1 in 1 mile (so far)
|
dprejean90
Parking Attendant
Posts: 7
|
posted February 07, 2013 12:41 AM
Good to go. These replies have been helpful. I know most of these are probably armature questions and have been repetitive on the form, but this leads me to another topic with maps. With the PCV you have the ability to have two maps loaded and with the switch, toggle between the two. Can I run the track map with k&n, flies out, pump gas, and AH on the street all the time without repercussions in relation to HP or possible engine damage? Or should I just stick with the street map and get the toggle switch for track use? Also are the preloaded maps good to go as is or should I still have my bike dynoed and the "maps tweaked" as my local shop "suggests"? Is this really recommended and/or necessary or is the shop just attempting to make a quick buck?
So from my understanding my bike does not need the ecu flashed with the flies mod. All the ecu flash does is take off the stock restrictions, nothing else?
Thanks DP
|
BobC
Pro
Posts: 1736
|
posted February 07, 2013 04:05 AM
Edited By: BobC on 7 Feb 2013 12:14
I've not tried what you're proposing with the fuel map, maybe an email to Brock's Performance would get you the definitive answer. For the Alien Head on your 07 bike it suggests you should run the track map with race fuel and the street map with pump gas. With some race fuels, like the high octane VP Import we use in my friend's turbo bike, you're advised to pump it out after a meeting to prevent damage to the fuel system. That's what we do and we refill with pump gas and switch the map.
It's true that the reflash for the 2007 bike doesn't do as much as it does for the later 14R. Only you can decide if it's worth it for your bike.
http://www.brocksperformance.com/Brock-Flashed-ECU-ZX14-0607+I923358+C297.aspx Read it here.
____________
Candy Thunder Blue 2006 ZZR1400
Stock wheelbase
Max: 205.4 mph in 1.25 miles
2012 ZZR1400 in Golden Blazed Green
Brock CT Full System. etc
Max: 203.1 in 1 mile (so far)
|
Seno
Pro
BANNED FOR LIFE!
Posts: 1230
|
posted February 07, 2013 05:07 AM
+1, had an 07, pulled the flies and it was a different bike down low. PC5 let's you run 2 maps indeed, from my understanding the track map is only slightly different. Street map is made for streetable performance, track map is made for all out performance. I have tried many different maps, even have a custom map made for all out performance..... Ivan's map is the best IMHO, I can ride all day without getting numb & buzzy like all the other maps out there (he does something with the fuel cutoff and it makes it super smooth). Keep in mind I do race my bike, but it is a daily driver also.
____________
2012 Black 14R -> Completely done!
|
zxrider1352
Parking Attendant
Posts: 9
|
posted February 07, 2013 04:25 PM
Edited By: zxrider1352 on 8 Feb 2013 00:27
I went to a local motorcycle speed/performance shop and they told me NOT to remove the secondary throttle plates (flies) and when I asked them why, they said because it HURTS peak hp. They said they've seen it time and time again on many bikes. The DID however recommend the ecu reflash to open the flies sooner.
I have mine is cuz I ride mostly street and I actually like them because the bike is more controllable down below about 6 or 7K rpms but it depends on what the rider prefers. I like to be nice to my rear tire and leave them in and if I want power, I simply rev the engine.
Personally I cannot justify a $350 reflash to get a little more power down low. If you look at the hp and torque graphs of reflashed vs. stock like for 1st gen 06/07 ZX-14, the reflashed is somewhat higher below about 7K rpms but above 7K they are virtually identical.
|
eklipse636
Needs a life
ZX-14
Posts: 6046
|
posted February 07, 2013 05:34 PM
quote:
I went to a local motorcycle speed/performance shop and they told me NOT to remove the secondary throttle plates (flies) and when I asked them why, they said because it HURTS peak hp. They said they've seen it time and time again on many bikes. The DID however recommend the ecu reflash to open the flies sooner.
I have mine is cuz I ride mostly street and I actually like them because the bike is more controllable down below about 6 or 7K rpms but it depends on what the rider prefers. I like to be nice to my rear tire and leave them in and if I want power, I simply rev the engine.
Personally I cannot justify a $350 reflash to get a little more power down low. If you look at the hp and torque graphs of reflashed vs. stock like for 1st gen 06/07 ZX-14, the reflashed is somewhat higher below about 7K rpms but above 7K they are virtually identical.
I'm going to throw this out there just for the heck of it.
You sound JUST like that dumbass that just got banned from here. Even in your other post, same kind of post.
Coincidence? I think not.
____________
Best: 60ft 1.351 1/8 5.68 mph 123.98 1/4
8.89 mph 151.32
|
zxrider1352
Parking Attendant
Posts: 9
|
posted February 07, 2013 07:07 PM
Edited By: zxrider1352 on 8 Feb 2013 03:08
Why would someone like that get banned? I read many of his posts and they seemed correct. I've also seen graphs with both flies in and out and at higher rpms, there is virtually no difference so it is basically a low rpm mod. Since someone else mentioned about losing peak hp with flies out, I decided to ask the local shop and they confirmed that because they tried it on many bikes (they didn't say exactly how many). So it seems the mod boosts low rpm torque and hp but hurts them slightly at high rpms.
|
eklipse636
Needs a life
ZX-14
Posts: 6046
|
posted February 07, 2013 07:35 PM
quote:
Why would someone like that get banned? I read many of his posts and they seemed correct. I've also seen graphs with both flies in and out and at higher rpms, there is virtually no difference so it is basically a low rpm mod. Since someone else mentioned about losing peak hp with flies out, I decided to ask the local shop and they confirmed that because they tried it on many bikes (they didn't say exactly how many). So it seems the mod boosts low rpm torque and hp but hurts them slightly at high rpms.
Because you don't see his post as being "incorrect" because your just as blind as him.
You think dynos tell it all, when in reality, real world 1/4 mile et and mph tell REAL life HP.
Do you test hp by your butt Dyno?
____________
Best: 60ft 1.351 1/8 5.68 mph 123.98 1/4
8.89 mph 151.32
|
zxrider1352
Parking Attendant
Posts: 9
|
posted February 07, 2013 07:58 PM
Edited By: zxrider1352 on 8 Feb 2013 03:59
I disagree. Dynos, even inaccurate ones, should show a relative increase or decrease as mods are done. For example, if you run a stock ZX-14 and get X peak hp and then the flies are removed and you then get X-5 peak hp, it would be fair to say that some peak hp was lost with the mod. However, at the dragstrip, the x-5 peak setup may win so your statement that 1/4 tells real life hp is not quite worded properly. I think you need a word in there like average.
I never said dynos tell it all. Why would any single testing device "tell it all"? Numbers tell you something but actually riding the bike tells you additional things.
Also your statement can be shown wrong because if I tell you my 1/4 mile et and mph, how would you know the hp? You don't know what the vehicle weight and my body weight are. You left out some stuff buddy.
|
dprejean90
Parking Attendant
Posts: 7
|
posted February 07, 2013 09:15 PM
As I've come to realize these topics are controversial and somewhat opinionated which caused us to veer off topic a bit.
All I am looking for is a medium between track and street use. Of course I want the baddest 14 around, but at what cost in relation to street use and and grater good for the bikes health. Just as a note my 07 ZX14 only has 7000 miles and is practically new and stock aside from the mods I'm currently in the process of deciding on doing.
With that being said I'm assuming flies out esspecilly on the first generation 14's. From what has been said iv gathered that it will take some getting used too, but flies out will not completely destroy drivability as far as street use and leaning into the curves are concerned, yes?
On the second note...where do I take it from here? As I've said in earlier posts I'm waiting on the AH & PCV. So now can I just run that setup for now or would it be better and/or worth it to get the ecu flashed? And also to clarify that question I'm also asking if I can run the bike without the ecu flash with the listed mods without repercussions.
And 3rd, the maps. Are the preloaded maps from Brock's good to go as is? Because quote, from posts above my local shop advised me that they should be tweaked via their dyno to my bikes specs (I'm guessing this is what they mean when they say tuned). They are also the ones who advised me that an ecu flash is required with the flies out mod, hints why I'm confused on the ecu topic. And if my shops "dyno & tweak" time is NOT a MUST, is it reccomended or worth the time and money?
Along with the map question can I run the track map with k&n, flies out, pump gas, and AH on the street all the time without repercussions in relation to HP or possible engine damage? Or should I just stick with the street map and get the toggle switch for track use? Again this is an unanswered question from earlier posts. Iv read that people do this all the time, but iv never read anything saying it was good or harmful to do.
Again I am fairly new to the bike community and have already learned a lot from articles and fourm discussions. So thanks again to all who take the time to read and reply to this thread. Also I have emailed Brock's preformence on some of the questions I have, but I'm not sure how long it will take for them to get back to me or even if they will get back to me at all. In addition to me sending Brock's an email I still like to hear outside opinions from several different people. I take advantage of all advise givin and use it to help make my future decions.
Thanks DP
|
BobC
Pro
Posts: 1736
|
posted February 08, 2013 05:57 AM
Edited By: BobC on 8 Feb 2013 14:11
Flies out does not destroy driveability, it enhances it by giving the bike a linear power curve instead of one which goes negative at around 3,000rpm. Yes, there's more power but it's power you control rather than the ECU program. If it hurts peak power at all it's only a couple of bhp, compared to doubling the power low down. An easy choice to make.
You don't have to get the reflash if you remove the flies, the correct fuelling is provided by the "flies out" maps for the Power Commander. Just choose the correct map for the mods you've done. If I were you I would go for the reflash (but it's not a "must have" unless you need it top speed derestricted) get the map switch and load the Brock maps. If you decide against the switch then load the street map. With the mods you're doing the bike will still be brilliant and it takes minutes to reload a track map if needed.
Don't worry about the squabbling and bitching that goes on here, it's fairly normal. As a man once said - If people can choose to be anything they like on the internet, why do so many choose to be idiots? 
____________
Candy Thunder Blue 2006 ZZR1400
Stock wheelbase
Max: 205.4 mph in 1.25 miles
2012 ZZR1400 in Golden Blazed Green
Brock CT Full System. etc
Max: 203.1 in 1 mile (so far)
|
biggmoinc
Zone Head
Posts: 747
|
posted February 08, 2013 06:14 AM
I agree wit bobc, 07 flies out with both brocks street/track flies out maps, save ur money on tune unless ur looking for that 3 or so peak hp, my guess is you'll never see it, flies out doesn't mean relearning ur bike as some suggest, when u ride it you'll see that u feel the difference at lower rpm but its not like you will have problems correcting it with ur throttle control,
____________
07 ZX14 bmc filter, muzzy m14, 16/44,66",auto shift, 6'3, 204lbs/1.54/3.99/6.03@120/7.8/9.32@147
biggmo@aol.com
|
dprejean90
Parking Attendant
Posts: 7
|
posted February 08, 2013 06:33 AM
BobC thanks for getting straight to the point and also good humor.
Actually just got off the phone with Brock's. By the way they were very fast in returning my Email and straight to the point with my questions. I give em 5 stars!
They told me they pull the flies on the 14's, especially on the 06 07 models. They said the Ecu flash is not a requirement for the mod, but would of course help. They said that the Ecu flash is completely optional and up to the owner to decide if the costs are worth the gains. Meaning track v. street use or just to say you have it. The flash removes the speed, rev limiter, and also tweaks the ignition timing (just fyi).
They also stated that "tweaking" of their maps is dumb. People try to tweak their maps via dyno sessions through local shops most of the time to just find out that they lost HP and find themselves using the Brocks map which they had from the get go. They also said that running the track map with the mods listed above all the time for street use will not harm the bike, but will cause it to run rich thus having a negative affect on HP. So stick with the street map and switch to track map for no filter and race fuel on the track for best results.
Regarding the maps i found this article to be informative http://www.brocksperformance.com/absolutefm/afmmain.aspx?faqid=234
Iv learned a bit from this thread and also hope it shed some light on the topic for others.
Again thanks to everyone for participation. DP
|
Brock
Sponsor
Posts: 560
|
posted February 08, 2013 07:37 AM
Thanks for the kind words dprejean90,
Nice to hear my staff is taking care of business (:
Brock
Brock’s Performance
|
Bad in Black
Expert Class
Posts: 348
|
posted February 08, 2013 07:51 AM
quote:
I have the 2007 SE and had a few questions. Old topic, but flies in or out? Iv read 100 different Threads on the subject, but still have not received a clear answer. At the moment I have the bike torn down and waiting on a Full Alien head w/ PCV so I pulled the flies. I can still put them back in before putting her back together. Id rather have an expert opinion before making any moves. I was also wondering about the ECU Flash. Should I get the reflash instead of pulling the flies, or should I get both. AND do I even need the reflash with the flies out mod or can I just run the PCV with it?
Thanks DP
I've been out of touch for awhile, didn't know they were flashing the 06-07 14's ecu's now to get rid of the fly restriction.
One thing I can say is pulling the flies and running a flies out map is THE best first mod you can do to the 06-07's.
With just removing the flies and adding a pcIII with a flies out map turned my stock 06 from a gutless wonder below 5 grand, to a machine that would light the tire up on throttle only, at will, at pretty much anything above idle. HUGE difference.....shocking really. Felt like a built chevy big block with those flies gone.
Kawi REALLY restricted the first 2 years of 14's down low.
|
zxrider1352
Parking Attendant
Posts: 9
|
posted February 08, 2013 10:09 AM
Edited By: zxrider1352 on 8 Feb 2013 18:09
Why would you want to "light up" the tire at low rpms? That is likely exactly why Kawasaki restricted the engine down low, to give you a chance to build speed so the rear tire could gain traction. I don't understand why people would spend several hundreds of dollars when all they need to do on the 06/07 ZX-14 is just rev it past 7K to get all the power they need. With stock gearing and rear tire size, that is only about 50 MPH in 1st gear. Do you really need more power below 50 MPH? What good is taking off from a red light hard if your tire spins from excessive torque?
I like the restriction down low because it makes the bike more confidence inspiring.
|
dprejean90
Parking Attendant
Posts: 7
|
posted February 08, 2013 06:59 PM
Brock's also provided me with this link , "the ZX14 diary". It's a fairly long read, but lots of good info regarding the topics at hand.
http://www.brocksperformance.com/brocknm/templates/bpp1.aspx?articleid=120&zoneid=11
|
Bad in Black
Expert Class
Posts: 348
|
posted February 08, 2013 09:06 PM
quote:
Why would you want to "light up" the tire at low rpms? That is likely exactly why Kawasaki restricted the engine down low, to give you a chance to build speed so the rear tire could gain traction. I don't understand why people would spend several hundreds of dollars when all they need to do on the 06/07 ZX-14 is just rev it past 7K to get all the power they need. With stock gearing and rear tire size, that is only about 50 MPH in 1st gear. Do you really need more power below 50 MPH? What good is taking off from a red light hard if your tire spins from excessive torque?
I like the restriction down low because it makes the bike more confidence inspiring.
Its all about throttle control, you don't HAVE to light the tire up, but its fun to do. And having to scream a 1400cc bike to get the power while corner carving with your buds is NOT fun....but having power from low down, that you can modulate with your right wrist and THROTTLE CONTROL IS fun.
But since I'm needing to explain this to a newbie with 9 posts, you're likely either a troll....or you truly are new to riding bikes, which means you ARE one of the rare few who truly DO need the flies in to protect you from yourself. There's a reason so many 14 owners have pulled the flies....it sounds like for your sake its good you haven't 
Now that I've wasted all that typing on you go away troll 
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC