shiphteey
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posted November 01, 2012 04:51 PM
 Edited By: shiphteey on 2 Nov 2012 00:57
1 Bad ZX12 ....
...you god damn RIGHT!!!!
Over 10 years ago the world got turned upside down when the Busa delivered the Mike Tyson uppercut to the rest of its peers. For 5-6 years running Kawasaki's rebuttal, the ZX-12R is still I see the most underestimated, most forgotten, most overlooked Hyperbike out there. Whereas the Hayabusa gave you a big bad motor and slick bodywork the 12R gave you Busa-BEATING HP, when you did your basic intake and exhaust mods. Both confirmed on the dyno....and substantiated even moreso in the late night roll-ons that were sure to ensue shortly after their introductions. Somehow the Busa's slicker aeros, although significant as has been proven in the wind tunnel and countless of Land Speed Races all around the world....late at night, as the speeds climb, if the rider on the 12R would do his part, the 12 would slowly walk away from the Busa.
You get reports swinging from both camps of the same amount of "more wins vs losses".....surely something has to give. Its actually pretty simple. Because the 12R has a shorter wheelbase, higher center of gravity, less torque and in 2000 the flywheel effect was even harder to harness out the gate it was no wonder the drag strip favored the Busa. You then factor weak 2000 clutch and a transmission that R&D will candidly state is WEAKER than the old ZX-11....everything that happened in the drag racing scene between those 2 titans was what you'd expect. If you saw a 12R going faster than similar Busas, you already knew the 12 rider was the better rider, simply because of the package he was on and what he had to do to overcome it via riding
It isn't a myth, it isn't because I own a 12 or race one. The 12R vs Busa is somewhat similar to the 10R and 1000 thing but more pronounced than the liters: Kawasaki will trade a little bit of PULL ON YOU RIGHT NOW for a little more of PASS YOU ONCE WE GO THROUGH THE GEARS. The 12's superior ram air, higher HP and super minor weight advantage clearly equal to being able to outaccelerate a similarly prepped bike. Why the 12 never was able to really SHOW its strength conclusively is because there is not a lot of roll-on testing out there. Its generally underground, there is a very small amount of people who particularly engage in this sort of behavior.
Face it: In a standing start the Busa did better based on its inherent nature. And in LSR busas grabbed more than their fair share in records....partly because of their superior aerodyamics. People assumed that because the Busa was generally quicker in the 1/4, and the same if not a little bit better for LSR that it meant the Busa pulled all the way. Unless they took part in some roll-ons with similar bikes, back to back runs, etc....they would never really KNOW how it really is. The fact is that the 12R pulls away from the Busa with Basic (read: 95-98%% of street bikes you encounter) mods in a highway roll-on. When it didn't you knew the rider was lesser....either size/experience came into it and skewed the data. Once the 12R didn't have to fight wheelies....out at higher speeds on the highway....pick the correct gear, ride it like its a 600 and not a Harley....watch what more HP and better ram air does. No need to deny it, its truth. Doesn't mean that the Busa isn't cheaper, quicker, faster, easier to work on, more aero, etc. But MORE HP on the highway with similar weight and gearing.....well....again you can't be surprised that the 12 walks. If you didn't know, now you do. Bar end to bar end runs can reveal quite a bit, especially where runs can be repeated over and over as on highway runs, without having to deal with traction issues for the most part....or overheating clutches.....etc. The 12R is a harder bike to ride but consequently the more rewarding bike to ride if the rider is skilled. In this case a 100cc handicap still showed the Kawasaki putting up more HP once uncorked. A bit of a kick to the mighty big Busa testicles and the egos that were surely fed by such notoriety.
So lets cut the BS, when the 14 came out the Busa was essentially a punching bag. If the smaller 12R made more power, what would Kawasaki do with another 150+cc? Its kinda like if some guy smaller than you was out benchpressing you....and then you heard he started doing roids....well....??? Well.....in terms of PEAK HP....I'd say a little bit of a letdown in proportionate PEAK HP compared to the 12R. Many people were expecting more. But since it became an infinitely better drag bike (Hey a bigger motor and brakes that finally are in line with the speed generated) it was a hit at the strip. And its not like the 14 is slower than the 12 or Busa....its just not as proportionately faster as compared to its displacement.
So the Busa fired back with a move that seemed genius and retarded at the same time. For LSR: Brilliant! 1340cc....can't get any smarter than that....and can't get any dumber than 1352cc from Kawasaki when the class limit is 1350. Its why ANY ZX14 LSR racer gets drawn in to the notion of of punching out their motor....they are expected to perform against BIG BUILT BUSAS. To perform well and even hope of snatching records you have to now open up that wallet and take that HIT. As a Kawasaki owner you are now inherently getting used to
SPENDING MORE TO GO JUST AS FAST! ITS A FACT!! NO ONE IS ARGUING THAT!!!
Now that we've addressed the obvious, Suzuki only coming up with an engine that is "about" the same size....? What were you thinking? Did you forget what happened when Kawasaki spotted you 100cc and went Sugar Ray on your molasses slow George Foreman @ss? But the playing field was closer......
So 1340.....1352....honestly flip a coin they are both pretty close at the strip and in the roll-ons. Even with similar bolt-ons and stock motors....pretty close.
And nothing happens for a few years. Then along comes the new 14R. Just so there isn't any confusion:
I've topped out stock 12s
I've topped out modified 12s
I've topped out modified 12s on nitrous
I've topped out modified Busas
I've gone through the gears on stock and turbo busas
I've topped out modified 14s (Rich's)
I've topped out Roy's big bore, stroked, nitrous 14
And now having topped out the new 14R......
If anyone has ever actually ridden and raced the 12.....the Busa....the 14......the 1340 Busa....and the new 14R.....to sit here and deny or play down the new 14R's ability is funny. Either you must not have a central nervous system and feel what I felt when I opened the throttle and pinned it to the stop compared to the other smaller bikes mentioned or my computer's clock is reading 7 months fast and it isn't 11/1 its April fools day.
Arguing that you could have used (Insert previous gen/rival bike here) and with the difference in price I could have put (insert mod or mods) on my bike and dusted your (insert new bad ass bike du jour) is such a waste of time. Jeez just putting a small nitrous shot on any previous gen will usually have it running away from the newer gen. Whats a small nitrous kit cost you....what.....$200-$300 for some bargain basement entry level shot of ass whooping sitting underneath your rear seat? Arguing "faster" when I could argue literally $300 can seperate the fastest from the slowest in a straight line contest...? But its a dead end argument. New is usually better and more expensive....was that rocket science? I know there was no public service announcement....but wasn't that just considered common knowledge?
By that rationale.....I spent $1000 on a pretzeled street 12R. Spent another $1000 in used parts, bolted it up, moved over a $200 exhaust system from one bike and another another.....So for $2200 I got a bike that went almost 196 on GPS.....and can go 200 mph with a bone stock engine......so why buy a 14R when for the difference I can put a turbo on my 12!!! Yes, that is the cheaper way to go faster.....
....but are we arguing bang for the buck.....or are we arguing better out of the box performer? And, more importantly....what are we trying to achieve by saying the older cheaper bike would go faster with the money saved in not buying a new one in modifications? Isn't that the way it SHOULD be? Otherwise new vehicles would always be some sort of quantum leap and every 2-3 years we'd be on something worth pennies to the dollar instead of dimes or quarters.
The ZX12 was most definately a bad ass. Whooped @ss on the streets.....away from the guy in the bleachers at the drag strip strugging to see who ran what at the traps.....no.....it wasn't always evident at LSR.....but through the gears.....anyone who's done it knows what I'm talking about. If the 12 held its own when it was DOWN 100cc what exactly did you think when Kawasaki was UP 100cc on Suzuki's 4 year old design? And now with an engine thats more akin to the 12R .... in other words .... bigger and badder?
The way 99% of the 14s and Busas out there will be....street bikes with stock motors and minor bolt-ons......the old 12 walks on the old Busas....and the new 14R walks the new Busa even harder.
A.
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shawnski
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posted November 01, 2012 05:09 PM
....and the battle continues!!! LOL
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1badzx12r
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posted November 01, 2012 05:16 PM
quote:
....and the battle continues!!! LOL
ITS NO BATTLE THEY JUST IN DENIAL
http://www.hayabusa.org/forum/top-speed/165791-worlds-fastest-motorcycle-riders-3.html
i sure as fukk don't see any zx12's in there or shipteey name either.. but there is a zx14 from finland ..congrats
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1badzx12r
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posted November 01, 2012 05:18 PM
oh and this forum is for technical discussion only ...
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shiphteey
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posted November 01, 2012 05:52 PM
Edited By: shiphteey on 2 Nov 2012 01:58
All depends on where you draw the line in the sand.
Look at the 650cc class, 1000cc class, 1350cc class and even some Roy's bike ran in at Maxton. Many held by Kawasakis. Modified 1350 without bodywork held by yours truely in the fuel class, Jim Owens was the long time record holder in the faired version of that class at 218, also on an old 12R. The busas have been out 1 year before the 12....even with the 1340 the 12's held records. For quite some time my 12 clocked the highest speed on nitrous in the states at 229. Why didn't they dominate in 1350 class? Why did they need an extra 300+ HP turbo to turbo to get turbo records? All depends on where you draw the line in the sand.
And I guess while we're on the subject....care to share your HP and ET/MPH at the track for all to analyze? Its my understanding you have a turbo busa but judging by some of the ribbing from Wheelie and others I take it you're kinda quick....but given the vehicle your riding ... the times aren't inherently that impressed given said mods. I've heard jabs at your size (sasquatch or something) so I'm guessing you're portly, as phrased by those with tact. If I'm not exactly wrong....presuming that you're really not all that quick, especially given the fact you're on a turbo busa, where are you going with all of it? Circular argument. I don't see smokin boating saying "Hey you fat fuck, you're on a turbo busa why am I dragging your ass silly down the strip on pump 89 octane and a stock motor Kawasaki?" What next....allign yourself with Bill Warner because you ride a Turbo Busa too? What.....should be be all measuring your sucess, or lack thereof.....to him? I mean you're probably only 100 mph down from what he can do.....so you either Suck or you Suck? Thats the type of argument you make.....amusing at best.
A.
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1badzx12r
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posted November 01, 2012 06:19 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 2 Nov 2012 02:20
just like i taught ..can;t argue with the records and the facts so attack the man ... and like gixxerjohn said ..your nothing but a low life raghead ....and i don't have to answer to some raghead
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shiphteey
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posted November 01, 2012 07:04 PM
So are you overlooking the fact that for years the 12R had the highest clocked speed of any nitrous bike on the planet? And it did it with stock pistons, compression, cams, crankshaft and rods.
That in the ECTA when running in 1350cc....you know....where the Busa naturally lives before people make them larger.....who was running the show in MPS/F 1350 and M/F 1350? Guess who left 150 ccs on the table?
Cute.....want to get into name calling....awww. Poor 1Bad....defender of all things Busa......so quick to minimize and maximize a situation......so blind to look at how things really are.
How fast have you gone again 1 Bad? I'm all ears. I'd like to know what exactly made you and/or said ZX-12R you must have had years back......what exactly made it so bad? Feel free to use as little words as you feel needed. Just remember the caps lock and petty insults only further perpetuate the image of a heavy, lackluster Hayabusa Turbo rider feebling attempting to ride the coattails of others. When the subject turns to one's own specific accomplishments.....doesn't really shine all that bright....which leads one to deduce that either the Busa is not all that....or that you are lackluster in your riding and will quickly make an excuse about your heft being a disadvantage.....somehow you having a disadvantage is null and void....but a Busa's near 100cc potential over a 14......now thats relevant.
12....Busa......14 ......dude just go out there and run a respectable number. Its ok to be the big heavy slow guy who on paper looks way slower than the list of his mods, namely a turbo on arguably the baddest bike known on the planet. But to be the loudest one only makes everyone go "Is this guy for real?" Its like Blackbird guy asking to come out and run.....Ummmm.....NO, don't be silly!"
A.
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1badzx12r
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posted November 01, 2012 07:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG1c_YsFK4A
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shiphteey
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posted November 01, 2012 07:10 PM
Edited By: shiphteey on 2 Nov 2012 03:16
And?
Todd went 1/10 of a second faster with a longer bike and a bottle.
9.4s stock arm stock motor no spray?
You've done better? I'm sure you haven't. If you did, not only would you prove it because it would aid in your mission of proving Busa/1bad superiority you'd be in a HURRY posting it up! I ain't holding my breath.
Like I said, you were probably a disgrace and couldn't hack it on a 12, jumped ship, found something that would band aid your lack of skills and now you're a new man! It was the bike's fault, right? NOPE, you just couldn't get the job done. Don't blame the bike, blame yourself big boy! You wouldn't be the first.....or 2nd turbo busa I've embarassed without a bottle on....assuming you actually agreed to a street run. Surely a turbo busa ain't afraid of a 12 year OLD ZX12......RIGHT? LOL I'll show you one bad ZX-12 brutha.
A.
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Brent Davis
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posted November 02, 2012 02:49 AM
DAMN! Got my popcorn and enjoying this.......he,he,he.
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zx12mark
Pro
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posted November 02, 2012 07:06 AM
ITS NO BATTLE THEY JUST IN DENIAL
It`s a battle alright.
The denial has and always been the Suzy guys and their Eyeyabruisa`s not facing that they got beat over and over stock bike to stock bike..............BUSA = THE BIG LIE......
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1badzx12r
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posted November 02, 2012 09:54 AM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 2 Nov 2012 17:59
quote:
ITS NO BATTLE THEY JUST IN DENIAL
It`s a battle alright.
The denial has and always been the Suzy guys and their Eyeyabruisa`s not facing that they got beat over and over stock bike to stock bike..............BUSA = THE BIG LIE......
like i keep telling you morons ..who races stock bikes .. 
has anybody ever seen a stock bike race anywheres .. even better yet anybody post pictures of a stock bike winning an event anywheres .. event must have more than 1 bike
oh wait you mean this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBD9LBQ5rRs and even then this had an ecu flash ..so not stock but about as close as they come but not stock
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Bently
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2012 14r In Blue and no Mods!
Posts: 5428
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posted November 02, 2012 10:03 AM
quote:
quote:
ITS NO BATTLE THEY JUST IN DENIAL
It`s a battle alright.
The denial has and always been the Suzy guys and their Eyeyabruisa`s not facing that they got beat over and over stock bike to stock bike..............BUSA = THE BIG LIE......
like i keep telling you morons ..who races stock bikes ..
has anybody ever seen a stock bike race anywheres .. even better yet anybody post pictures of a stock bike winning an event anywheres .. event must have more than 1 bike
oh wait you mean this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBD9LBQ5rRs and even then this had an ecu flash ..so not stock but about as close as they come but not stock
I won a 10.50 index race this year bone stock! it was fun too.
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zx12mark
Pro
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posted November 02, 2012 12:07 PM
quote:
quote:
ITS NO BATTLE THEY JUST IN DENIAL
It`s a battle alright.
The denial has and always been the Suzy guys and their Eyeyabruisa`s not facing that they got beat over and over stock bike to stock bike..............BUSA = THE BIG LIE......
like i keep telling you morons ..who races stock bikes ..
has anybody ever seen a stock bike race anywheres .. even better yet anybody post pictures of a stock bike winning an event anywheres .. event must have more than 1 bike
oh wait you mean this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBD9LBQ5rRs and even then this had an ecu flash ..so not stock but about as close as they come but not stock
Oh Dorkathan.
This is the 21st century.These days stock means pipe,fuel re calibrators,slight or Same) gearing change,air filter,and power shifter ,lowered ,strapped ..NO INTERNAL ENGINE MODS. ....SHOWROOM STOCK is the way it came out of the crate which is way harder to get the bikes best time than it is extended.....Either way these bikes mentioned, the 12,14 and 14r win over and over......
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1badzx12r
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posted November 02, 2012 12:14 PM
quote:
Oh Dorkathan.
This is the 21st century.These days stock means pipe,fuel re calibrators,slight or Same) gearing change,air filter,and power shifter ,lowered ,strapped ..NO INTERNAL ENGINE MODS. ....SHOWROOM STOCK is the way it came out of the crate which is way harder to get the bikes best time than it is extended.....Either way these bikes mentioned, the 12,14 and 14r win over and over......
dumbing down of america continues...
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shiphteey
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posted November 02, 2012 12:42 PM
1Bad, I missed the part where you enlightened us on how and why you and your ZX-12 were, at some time or another a "bad" combination. Were you the quickest in your state.....city......county.....neighborhood?
Why so coy on your presenting best ET and MPH? I'm sure you'll leave out your best stock wheelbase drag pass because its sure to be slower than my ho-hum 9.4 stock arm no spray stock motor passes.
I'm far from a drag racer. I'm a guy who has occaisionally drag raced. You talk so big, so loud and all you've done is drag racing. You open your mouth about anything remotely FAST and everyone just laughs. They laugh because they know a big fat guy that has to stretch his bike and throw a turbo to compensate for lackluster performance is nothing more than a joke. You talk about highway racing....as if somehow you WOULD NOT END UP BEING A COMPLETE JOKE ON FILM WHEN RUNNING AGAINST THOSE SAME CARS. Everyone here has seen the typical turbo Busa guy on the highway....I've aluded to those types for YEARS NOW. You see the vid and start shaking your head before they hit it. Big tree trunk thighs, textile jacket flapping in the wind, incorrect RPM, tuck is crap and they are too scared to get their head down.
Proportionately speaking, given what a turbo busa is truely capable of at the strip, assuming you're holding the whole notion of "drag race only" superiority to all other forms of 2 wheeled racing, I'm sure you leave much potential on the table compared to most riders .... on most bikes actually. You're too big, and their potential far exceeds what you'd honestly be able to harness.....if you yourself haven't even gotten to a point where you are head and shoulders above Kawasakis, or ZX12s or ZX14s or whatever....until you have gotten their with your own setup how does talking trash about another's performance make any sense? If you haven't, and have no tangbile evidence to at least give some weight to your claim...I'm pretty sure Smokin would lay waste to you at the strip. Umm.....I'm sure there are people that don't like me.....and even they would put money on me that you'd get annihilated hard up top if we ran. You can sit there on your big badass turbo busa and we can just wring em out. Standing start from a dig....a compromise, not a roll-on, not a 1/4 mile run. We can go from a dig for 1 mile. Winner is determined by who crosses first, mph is just like it is at the drag strip. Raises eyebrows, and leads to what if and shoulda coulda wouldas but winner is determined by who crosses the line first.
I see no reason whatsoever you should be afraid of a bike made in 2000 that is spotting you 150cc, has worst aeros than the Busa and would be running dodgy, chintzy, cheapy fritzy shot of dope while you're on a better, more consistent, more reliable turbo setup. No bottle pressure issues, no warmers. Repeatability. Surely given those advantages you could outride ANYONE ELSE that has all 3 disadantages as listed....right? For it goes to reason that if you can't hand the opposition their ass even though they have 3 significant disadvantages, again that being aeros, displacement and consistency.....well my ignorant lunk headed underachieving, dancing around the big pink elephant in the living room friend, which, in the case of this matter, means you are essentially in little league and your bike is in the majors. Sure, you can run that combination....the problem is when someone pulls your card and you're on a turbo busa that can't perform as you'd expect given its a "turbo busa".....you realize at that moment you are forever banished in the shadows. Always lurking from a distance.....casting stones from his safe place .... the equivalent to the overly obnoxious "YEAH" you get in the background of some of today's hip hop. That is what you end up being relegated to, because the guys making the video are the ones that are "in it". You are wishing you were in it. But you are no more in the video than the guy in the background yelling "YEAH".....essentially......background noise.
A.
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mick46
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posted November 02, 2012 03:05 PM
1Pork has been thoroughly and eloquently told !
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1999 Hayabusa , stretched lowered and a 60 shot !
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KoflaOlivieri
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posted November 03, 2012 07:24 AM
An excellent presentation, on point and easy to understand.
Here's the cliff notes:
How fast have you gone again? I'm all ears Just remember the caps lock and petty insults only further perpetuate the image of a heavy, lackluster Hayabusa Turbo rider feebling attempting to ride the coattails of others.
I missed the part where you enlightened us on how and why you and your ZX-12 were, at some time or another a "bad" combination. Were you the quickest in your state.....city......county.....neighborhood? Why so coy on your presenting best ET and MPH?
Care to share your HP and ET/MPH at the track for all to analyze? presuming that you're really not all that quick, especially given the fact you're on a turbo busa, where are you going with all of it? Circular argument.
If you can't hand the opposition their ass even though they have 3 significant disadvantages, again that being aeros, displacement and consistency.....well my ignorant lunk headed underachieving, dancing around the big pink elephant in the living room friend, which, in the case of this matter, means you are essentially in little league and your bike is in the majors.
You open your mouth about anything remotely FAST and everyone just laughs. They laugh because they know a big fat guy that has to stretch his bike and throw a turbo to compensate for lackluster performance is nothing more than a joke.
Like I said, you were probably a disgrace and couldn't hack it on a 12, jumped ship, found something that would band aid your lack of skills and now you're a new man! It was the bike's fault, right? NOPE, you just couldn't get the job done. Don't blame the bike, blame yourself big boy!
If you yourself haven't even gotten to a point where you are head and shoulders above Kawasakis, or ZX12s or ZX14s or whatever....until you have gotten there with your own setup how does talking trash about another's performance make any sense?
+1
Kofla
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Riding My Own Biography: (MotoVlog)
2010 Kawasaki ZX-14
1985 Yamaha V-Max 1200
1977 Kawasaki KZ 1000
1975 Kawasaki Z1 900
1974 Kawasaki H2 750
1972 Kawasaki H2 750
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Lucky14
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posted November 03, 2012 07:28 AM
Edited By: Lucky14 on 3 Nov 2012 15:31
@ shiphteey
Great job of pointing out the fallacies (definition: incorrect argumentation in logic and rhetoric resulting in a lack of vlidity, or more generally, a lack of soundness) of 1Bad’s arguments!!!
This is nothing new. It’s not a life change or a “BAD” mood. I was “battling” him 6 years ago when we first got the new 14’s and he was talking trash. When it is evident that he cannot win the debate, he sidesteps and starts a new one or he just starts with name calling and personal insults. Repeat endlessly……………….
It is always “I know someone that knows someone that can beat a 14” or “look at this race on the Internet where the 14 gets beat.” I’m sure that he will be along shortly to call me out for a stack in a quarter mile with his TURBO BUSA against my stock 14. Always apples and oranges.
Like you, I am still waiting for him to post his own personal times. I post mine, Wheelie, does it, Smokin does it, so do others. What is so difficult about that???
@ mick46
Nailed it!
@ KoflaOlivieri
Love it!!!
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If it shouldn't move and does, use the duct tape.
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RICH CRAFT 1
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posted November 03, 2012 07:54 AM
Lucky, I think what's really eat no one bad is that he had a good run 14 and sold it for a busa, and now he's finding out all the problems that they have. LOL he said his 14 would run 5.50s with his weight, which is pretty decent, I'd be curious to see how long it takes him to get there with a busa if ever, and how many more dollars, He has to span over what he got for the 14 ?
Ken
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biggmoinc
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posted November 03, 2012 11:30 AM
5.50s with 300lb rider???? I'd never have gotten rid of that bike, what is that ......8.5x's? in 1/4?
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Lucky14
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posted November 03, 2012 09:09 PM
Bump to make it easier for 1bad to find this thread.
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mick46
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posted November 04, 2012 11:22 AM
Come on 1Bad, surely you've got some response to the above well put questions ?
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1999 Hayabusa , stretched lowered and a 60 shot !
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1badzx12r
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posted November 04, 2012 11:37 AM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 4 Nov 2012 19:39
quote:
Come on 1Bad, surely you've got some response to the above well put questions ?
theres nothing to answer to cause he's a moron living in fantasy land with a group of nutswinging kool-aid drinking worshippers.. so y'all just stay in here and jack each other off to pictures of busa's doing what kawasaki's can't .. ...
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mick46
Expert Class
Posts: 112
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posted November 04, 2012 11:48 AM
Denial does not count as response.... No evidence that the man's a moron either .... It would appear that you are again resorting to abuse as you are afraid to answer the questions posed directly to you.
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2012 ZZR-1400
Alien Frogskin Green
Brocks CT Meg, PCV & QuickShifter, Brembo M4 Monoblocs, Grimeca 320mm discs, Nitron Race shock, Gilles rearsets , adjusters and TCA axle nut, Supersprox 42T, DID nickel plate X-ring, HEL brake lines, bar risers, shorty levers, tail tidy, Zero Gravity screen, RandG spools and bar ends, GPR V4 damper.... Done !
1999 Hayabusa , stretched lowered and a 60 shot !
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