tuusinii
Pro
Posts: 1031
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posted September 05, 2013 08:34 AM
quote:
1) When the bike hits the dyno it's at operating temperatures and the oil viscosity should be at 40 weight.
2) When I put in new oil it is COLD and at 10 weight (thinner)
10W40 means it's like 10w straight when cold and like 40w straight when hot. It doesn't mean its thinner when cold. And one thing that I'm always thinking is when people use lightweight oil and measure them on dyno. Are the oils allready at operating temperature? On street it takes at least 10km (6 miles) of driving to get the engine to operating temperature (both oil and water). And the difference of 0w20 to for example 20w50 is much bigger when the engine is cold than hot. So do the lightweight oils help anywhere but dragracing?
  
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Brock
Sponsor
Posts: 560
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posted September 05, 2013 08:54 AM
EVERYONE knows thick oil protects better than thin oil - right????
<<0 weight is obviously for the insane... in the snow... with no power... So 0w-20 must be for the slightly less powerful guys.
Here are some FACTS about the world's fastest motorcycle rider who stopped engine damage that was being caused from running 20w-50 in his 600+ HP turbo bike and switched to the thinner 0w-20 Alisyn to cure his woes: Bill Warner featured in Race Engine Technology Magazine
Brock
Brock’s Performance
ps. we have street riders with many tens of thousands of miles using <<0 and 0w-20 with no issues. 'Thicker is better' is old school and out-dated thinking - has been for many years.
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ZeX14
Parking Attendant
Posts: 19
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posted September 05, 2013 10:39 AM
 Edited By: ZeX14 on 5 Sep 2013 18:41
Brock, I was meaning the dynos you have done with air filters, sorry for the confusion. With those I have read up on your findings. 
I was only stating a case that a repeatable 2 dyno hp is 2 hp. Not dyno error. If we are going to say 2-4hp is always dyno error we can't discriminate between what is being tested. If we are going to say 2-4hp is dyno error, in that case, all slip on exhausts, oil, air filters etc don't pickup anything because 4hp is dyno error.
As far as straight oil goes, I agree that moving from 10w40 to 0w20 will see an improvement. I never thought going from 10w40 to 10w30 would make a difference and I appreciate you verifying. (as in the case of this Hyper Touring ZX14)
So now I know that there is 6hp left on that dyno cliffrandal talked about. Less the two hp gain from the ceramic bearings, that should be 4hp from the Takai coils.
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Brock
Sponsor
Posts: 560
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posted September 05, 2013 11:49 AM
ZeX14,
Empirical data gathering is critical in all statistical evaluations. Unfortunately, I have found that most dyno operators and bench racers do not understand the concept. I have personally experienced dyno power fluctuations over 4% as a sunny dyno day is interrupted by a rainy low/pressure thunderstorm and back again (in the matter of an hour or so). Hell, the water vapor in the air after a rain can ruin an entire days testing. Additionally, only one item at a time would need to be added to gather the proper data.
It always makes me chuckle when I see dyno graphs posted without the run notes, containing the date and conditions.
As far as your comment above, I have 2 questions:
1. Why would they even bother to map a bike with an EXTREMELY high performance exhaust and no matching map in the FI controller?
2.Why this thread is even named what it is named? They never once state the coils are worth 6 hp... they say that the coils and MAPPING are worth 6 HP....
Brock
Brock’s Performance
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ZeX14
Parking Attendant
Posts: 19
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posted September 05, 2013 12:21 PM
Edited By: ZeX14 on 5 Sep 2013 20:24
Brock,
I would assume anybody with a highly tuned bike 'should' map AF with, for example, an exhaust for maximum benefit? As I am sure anybody with porting, ignition or otherwise would do so again.
That said, almost everyone with a VMAX on the VMAX forum are picking up power, speed and lowering ET's with just a coil swap, no mapping. Does that mean I can pickup more with mapping? I hope so.
I also found another independant dyno over here today in my research on a CBR1000RR.
http://www.1000rr.net/forums/1000rr-mods-upgrades/132737-takai-racing-coils-before-vs-after-dyno.html
Seems he picked up 5hp and leaned out the bike 0.4 with just a coil swap and without any mapping. 5hp is a significant improvement IMHO.
To me the mapping is just a part of the total. Whatever is done, needs to be mapped for maximum benefit, regardless of product. Mapping by itself without a product will only go so far, until another product is added, and then additional mapping should further enhance the gains.
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ZeX14
Parking Attendant
Posts: 19
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posted September 05, 2013 12:38 PM
BTW... I think you make some great things Brock. I also realize your exhaust was in the same article and may be a sore point as far a hp numbers go, but can I ask you a question?
If manufacturers could control the outcome and the dyno numbers by paying the magazines... why aren't the numbers on the exhaust higher and to your liking? I don't think Takai has any more control over the dyno numbers than you do.
I think you make an awesome product, just that I see division here and alternate agenda from you because of that article based on what I have read on other threads in the past. I am sure there were haters for Brock when you started out. Especially from bigger companies. Not nice to fight politics between companies, especially when a bigger company has motive to squash a smaller one. Takai is new company starting out like you did and if they make a product that works I just want to know legit, without influence.
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Brock
Sponsor
Posts: 560
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posted September 05, 2013 12:55 PM
ZeX14,
I have no problem with SSB's numbers... only their test procedure. If you believe my thinking is flawed, that is your prerogative. You asked a question, I answered it.
I wish all companies in this industry the best of luck and will gladly perform non-bias testing.
Here is my contact information:
Brock Davidson
President Brock's Performance
Bmail@BrocksPerformance.com
937-912-0054 ext 102
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ZeX14
Parking Attendant
Posts: 19
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posted September 05, 2013 03:01 PM
If I could pay for a set to send you I would lol. I honestly don't know if your exhaust or the coils made more or less, what the test procedure was... etc etc...
The only thing I know for certain, based on what I am reading, is that nobody influenced the dyno I saw in SSB. I think if it could have been influenced it would have been, for all to greatly benefit. I believe the numbers are the numbers they came up with and where they landed is what they found based on that test. Does it make it the end all be all? I don't think so, I am sure people don't take any dyno, including a Brock exhaust dyno, to heart unless it's verified across several bikes.
In all this it doesn't make Takai, Brock, or DynoJET the harbingers of horsepower death, it just means that they found power with the products as tested, which is fair and honest. I am just looking for personal experiences on the ZX14. I found unbiased and legit tests in other places from third parties and this is the point of asking right?
Ugghhh anyway... this is why I never register on forums... I get too tied up into conversation. lol
Take care Brock, wish you the best and thanks for the feedback, it is appreciated. I think I will, but, if I ever do a test I will try to let you guys know.
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tuusinii
Pro
Posts: 1031
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posted September 06, 2013 01:13 AM
quote:
EVERYONE knows thick oil protects better than thin oil - right????
<<0 weight is obviously for the insane... in the snow... with no power... So 0w-20 must be for the slightly less powerful guys.
No thick oil won't work if engine is designed to work with light oil or the other way a round. But the question was that are those gains that are reported really made on completely warmed up engines where the difference in extra viscosity is far less than whenn the oils are cold. Because as a street rider I'd like to know the answer if it helps or not.
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Seno
Pro
BANNED FOR LIFE!
Posts: 1230
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posted September 06, 2013 04:54 AM
quote:
The only thing I know for certain, based on what I am reading, is that nobody influenced the dyno I saw in SSB. I think if it could have been influenced it would have been, for all to greatly benefit. I believe the numbers are the numbers they came up with and where they landed is what they found based on that test.
I do not agree with that... These people pay SSB for advertising, and a Dyno can read differently due to several different factors.
____________
2012 Black 14R -> Completely done!
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Brock
Sponsor
Posts: 560
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posted September 06, 2013 05:59 AM
tuusinii,
This doesn't exactly answer your question... but it might answer some you haven't' asked yet in regard to extended use of light weight oils in ZX-14's on the street: Alisyn Oil Report by Blackstone Laboratories
As far as my testing goes. Of course, all engines are brought up to full operating temp before any testing is performed. I can tell you that all of my stock engine bikes since 2008 have seen nothing but <<0 for all of our mapping sessions. This includes full load map sessions where the pipe glows red! We have encountered no oil-related failures.
Brock
Brock’s Performance
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ZeX14
Parking Attendant
Posts: 19
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posted September 06, 2013 07:20 AM
quote:
I do not agree with that... These people pay SSB for advertising, and a Dyno can read differently due to several different factors.
I don't blame him but clearly Brock feels that his system should have netted more power. Who knows maybe 9hp is the exhaust with mapping and 4hp is the coils with mapping?
If the point is to make advertisers look good and to their liking why didn't we see a result like that and why am I seeing such a debate about what product made what power?
Hate to say it but I honestly believe if Brock had control there would be no debate about what product made what horsepower and the dyno would have been fudged in all of their favors. What you are telling me doesn't add up. They are advertisers but fudging dynos wouldn't be done in favor of one company only if that is your conclusion. Your reasoning simply doesn't make sense.
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ZeX14
Parking Attendant
Posts: 19
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posted September 06, 2013 07:38 AM
BTW Brock... I have done allot of reading at Bob the oil guy forums where those blackstone reports are done routinely.
On that site, reports are all generally good on most oils, many there seem to favor Penzoil Platinum and Mobile1. Some oils like the bottom of the barrel Walmart SuperTECH report some of the better results which blew my mind. Never read much about Alisyn so I can't comment.
I personally run various brands across different engines I own but here is something I would like to share and for others to keep in mind concerning oil.
I know this isn't here or there, but my friend works at Nissan headquarters and he told me that if manufacturer recommended oil is used, even conventional oil within recommended change intervals, their teardowns show almost zero wear in extreme operating conditions. One of the most important factors is that the SAME oil after every oil change needs to be used. Apparently some oils don't play well together causing sludge and added wear.
Thought some people might be interested in that tidbit of info.
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted September 06, 2013 02:52 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 6 Sep 2013 22:53
I love oil threads http://www.synthetic-solutions.com/gray.htm
quote:
NO OIL CHANGE FOR 519,000 MILES AND COUNTING!
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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Seno
Pro
BANNED FOR LIFE!
Posts: 1230
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posted September 06, 2013 04:37 PM
quote:
Hate to say it but I honestly believe if Brock had control there would be no debate about what product made what horsepower and the dyno would have been fudged in all of their favors. What you are telling me doesn't add up. They are advertisers but fudging dynos wouldn't be done in favor of one company only if that is your conclusion. Your reasoning simply doesn't make sense.
Opinions are like assholes, everyone has got one and some of them stink.
I was fortunate to get the first 14R in the Northeast. I got the chance to test various companies products for the 14R, a few we're Brock's, ECUnleashed, Dynotune NoS, HM Quickshifter, XS Boost to name a few... Brock's basically told me to post the results regardless of how they come out.... I can't say that about all the people who let me test their stuff...
Draw your own conclusions, for the record I paid full retail for my exhaust. Part of why I chose a Brock's exhaust was after reading about a dude who ordered from a dealer (who did not properly insure his shipment which got damaged)and after the dealer told the customer too bad.... Brock's replaced the guys exhaust free of charge.
____________
2012 Black 14R -> Completely done!
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ZeX14
Parking Attendant
Posts: 19
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posted September 07, 2013 12:03 PM
quote:
Draw your own conclusions, for the record I paid full retail for my exhaust. Part of why I chose a Brock's exhaust was after reading about a dude who ordered from a dealer (who did not properly insure his shipment which got damaged)and after the dealer told the customer too bad.... Brock's replaced the guys exhaust free of charge.
Where is this coming from? I said Brock has a good product and you start a rant about exhaust systems and covering products that are shipped. I don't get it.
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted September 07, 2013 12:21 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 7 Sep 2013 20:42
I would like to see how these perform in private hands, same session dyno results. Based on my experience, I just can't see them equaling a full exhaust with tune.
I have a Gen1, 14R, and a 1534 race motor. Even with boosted spark on the race motor, the most I have seen is 3 hp.
As for the oil, at proper operating temp, always a Hp increase with <<0 and Petron. In my experience...minimum 3 hp compared to a good 10/40 synthetic. Not debating it, those are my results.
Shane
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ZeX14
Parking Attendant
Posts: 19
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posted September 07, 2013 06:05 PM
I would also like to see. I am seeing them on other bikes, x2 CBR1000RR's, various VMAXs, Ninja 250, R6, GSXR750, just nothing on the ZX14 yet.
Won't get any arguements out of me. Going from 10w40 to 0w20 alone I am sure will net power... I just don't see any benefit going from a 10w40 to a 10w30.
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted September 07, 2013 06:30 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 8 Sep 2013 02:52
quote:
I would also like to see. I am seeing them on other bikes, x2 CBR1000RR's, various VMAXs, Ninja 250, R6, GSXR750, just nothing on the ZX14 yet.
Won't get any arguements out of me. Going from 10w40 to 0w20 alone I am sure will net power... I just don't see any benefit going from a 10w40 to a 10w30.
If going to a lighter oil yields a benefit, then logically, any lighter oil would see some degree of benefit. It may be very small, but it would be there. A 10w30 is a "thinner" oil at operating temperature than a 10w40.
That being said, 10w30 is still "thick" for most street and racing applications, if performance is the goal. For racing, on a stock motor, I choose <<0. For street riding, with high ambient temps, and traffic, I like 0w20. I use Alisyn oil. I also run the Petron, as that is my preference, for an added level of protection.
Someone mentioned "Bob is the oil Guy". He also ran 20 weight, in his Ferrari that recommended heavier oil. I would say, pick the oil you like, and change it often. No problems!
Shane
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hagrid
Expert Class
Posts: 373
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posted September 07, 2013 08:20 PM
Wow. No one got called an "oil bully" or "internet warrior".
____________
blue 14R
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ZeX14
Parking Attendant
Posts: 19
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posted September 08, 2013 08:06 AM
quote:
quote:
I would also like to see. I am seeing them on other bikes, x2 CBR1000RR's, various VMAXs, Ninja 250, R6, GSXR750, just nothing on the ZX14 yet.
Won't get any arguements out of me. Going from 10w40 to 0w20 alone I am sure will net power... I just don't see any benefit going from a 10w40 to a 10w30.
If going to a lighter oil yields a benefit, then logically, any lighter oil would see some degree of benefit. It may be very small, but it would be there. A 10w30 is a "thinner" oil at operating temperature than a 10w40.
That being said, 10w30 is still "thick" for most street and racing applications, if performance is the goal. For racing, on a stock motor, I choose <<0. For street riding, with high ambient temps, and traffic, I like 0w20. I use Alisyn oil. I also run the Petron, as that is my preference, for an added level of protection.
Someone mentioned "Bob is the oil Guy". He also ran 20 weight, in his Ferrari that recommended heavier oil. I would say, pick the oil you like, and change it often. No problems!
Shane
Shane... yes and no. I have a high mileage Nissan and you won't catch me dead using a 0w20 oil. The first time I used a 0w20 it resulted in a knock in the engine, which I would assume is due to the wear in tolerances of the rods / bearings etc. Next day swapped in some 10w30, problem solved. I believe the heavier oil compensates for larger bearing clearances.
In today's higher tolerance engines a 0w20 is probably fine, but once wear and tear kick in, or in order engines with loose tolerances, I believe you ABSOLUTELY need a higher weight oil. Companies that know how to build older engines make the tolerances loose on purpose, it results in more engine horsepower. Non of the professionals here running 350 Ford / Chevy engines use a 0w20 oil, but a straight 40 weight. One must consider all applications and intended use.
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted September 08, 2013 08:58 AM
quote:
no. I have a high mileage Nissan and you won't catch me dead using a 0w20 oil. The first time I used a 0w20 it resulted in a knock in the engine, which I would assume is due to the wear in tolerances of the rods / bearings etc. Next day swapped in some 10w30, problem solved. I believe the heavier oil compensates for larger bearing clearances.
I as more focused on our high performance street/racing motorcycle application. For a worn out motor, the same rules would not apply.
The "Bob is the oil guy" site is very good. It has information on just about everything you could imagine, and he cover the applications (such as high mileage engines) in depth. The funny thing is, the whole forum there is one big oil thread!! 
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/
Everyone should check out the articles; excellent and informative!
Now about these coils....
Shane
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ZeX14
Parking Attendant
Posts: 19
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posted September 08, 2013 02:35 PM
quote:
Now about these coils....
Shane
HAHA... yeah... sidetracked yet again. I am pretty much sold based on what I have seen on other bikes so I am going to try them out. That and I think InlandEmpireRider has done some positive testing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ighdCFzlqGc
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InlandEmpireRider
Novice Class
SoCalZX14
Posts: 50
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posted September 09, 2013 06:42 AM
I 'bit the bullet' and decided to go try the Takai coils.
YOUR RESULTS WILL OBVIOUSLY VARY! I am a beginner rider... however, my bike is air shifted (helps with consistency). I run 91 octane pump fuel and my 60 foot times on all these runs were 1.57-1.65. All of these track days were within the last 6 weeks (late July-early Sep 2013), in southern CA.
My local track is Irwindale, CA - 1/8 mile.
My best mph before the coils was 119.9 - two separate track days, all runs in the 118-119 mph range. One trip to Famoso raceway 1/4 mile - best mph there was 145 mph out of 4 runs.
I switched to the Takai coils, without any other modification. My next track outing, 1/8 mile I went 121.7 mph, then 120.9, then another 121.x.
Next track outing - 1/4 mile (only other change was removing the subframe braces) - mph improved from 145.x mph to 148.4 (only got one pass).
ET's improved from 6.2x 1/8 mile, 9.6 1/4 mile; to 6.0x 1/8 mile and 9.3 1/4 mile. Obviously, the ET is much more dependent on my driving, which is why I posted the trap speeds above.
Your results will vary! Who knows, maybe the coils I was running before were weak? Either way, these are the results I found. No back to back dyno runs, sorry.
Bike mods - 2006 ZX14:
"Mild" cylinder head porting by Sims Motor Sports
Degreed stock cams
13.5:1 JE pistons
Bored throttle bodies, factory pro velocity stacks
Brock's CT meg full exhaust
ZX10 rims, ceramic bearings, single front brake rotor
MSD SB6 with power commander 5, stock ignition timing, stock injectors
I weigh roughly 240 lb suited.
I hope this helps some of you with your decision for/against the coils. Or should I say coil$$$! =D
____________
-Eric in SoCal
06 ZX14, 8.96 @ 151.1 mph, 1.46 60 foot, 245-250 lb rider
Videos here: http://www.youtube.com/boostMD
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted September 09, 2013 08:49 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 9 Sep 2013 16:49
quote:
I 'bit the bullet' and decided to go try the Takai coils.
YOUR RESULTS WILL OBVIOUSLY VARY! I am a beginner rider... however, my bike is air shifted (helps with consistency). I run 91 octane pump fuel and my 60 foot times on all these runs were 1.57-1.65. All of these track days were within the last 6 weeks (late July-early Sep 2013), in southern CA.
My local track is Irwindale, CA - 1/8 mile.
My best mph before the coils was 119.9 - two separate track days, all runs in the 118-119 mph range. One trip to Famoso raceway 1/4 mile - best mph there was 145 mph out of 4 runs.
I switched to the Takai coils, without any other modification. My next track outing, 1/8 mile I went 121.7 mph, then 120.9, then another 121.x.
Next track outing - 1/4 mile (only other change was removing the subframe braces) - mph improved from 145.x mph to 148.4 (only got one pass).
ET's improved from 6.2x 1/8 mile, 9.6 1/4 mile; to 6.0x 1/8 mile and 9.3 1/4 mile. Obviously, the ET is much more dependent on my driving, which is why I posted the trap speeds above.
Your results will vary! Who knows, maybe the coils I was running before were weak? Either way, these are the results I found. No back to back dyno runs, sorry.
Bike mods - 2006 ZX14:
"Mild" cylinder head porting by Sims Motor Sports
Degreed stock cams
13.5:1 JE pistons
Bored throttle bodies, factory pro velocity stacks
Brock's CT meg full exhaust
ZX10 rims, ceramic bearings, single front brake rotor
MSD SB6 with power commander 5, stock ignition timing, stock injectors
I weigh roughly 240 lb suited.
I hope this helps some of you with your decision for/against the coils. Or should I say coil$$$! =D
One big factor is the track conditions on the days in question. Perhaps look up the Density Altitude and wind conditions on the days in question. That can have a huge impact on mph and ET. Horsepower can be impacted significantly.
I am not saying that the coils don't work, I am just saying that the test methodology is not as scientific as it could be. In 500+ passes on my stock motor bike, I saw many outings where the mph would vary 2-3 mph just based on track temps or wind.
Shane
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