blue07
Expert Class
Posts: 485
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posted May 29, 2012 09:19 AM
Flies...2012 14R
Hiya all...to anyone here who've removed their secondaries..can you tell me...specifically...what kind of performance I can expect from doing this...I have the Guhl(Brock) flash...CT Ti-Single,PCV w/Brock's street map...the rest...stock.I ride street exclusively...no dragging.Thanks!
  
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hagrid
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Posts: 373
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posted May 29, 2012 09:30 AM
I know who you are! Privateer is gonna crack your nuts!
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blue 14R
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blue07
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Posts: 485
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posted May 29, 2012 10:29 AM
WooHoo...Hagrid!Yup...tis me."the 'clown'....
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Goldwingmann
Expert Class
Posts: 336
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posted May 29, 2012 11:15 AM
Low end smoother performance below 4500 rpm......then hang on............
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hagrid
Expert Class
Posts: 373
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posted May 29, 2012 12:56 PM
On a serious note... if it were me... i would wait for Brock or Don Guhl to finish cracking the ECU completely. Heres why:
1) secondary removal is a PITA... lotsa equipment to remove. Even more so if you remove the throttle body assembly to negate the risk of dropping a screw into your engine.
2) what if your engine suffers an internal catastrophe? First thing the dealer is gonna say is "warranty voided. we saw evidence of tampering".
When the ECU gets cracked completely theres a good chance it can be programmed to behave as if the flies were gone. All you need to do is get another factory ECU and have it flashed. If you have a warranty claim put your stock ECU back on and drop off your scoot.
What do you fellas think?
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blue 14R
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Wheelie
Needs a life
Old Man
Posts: 6902
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posted May 29, 2012 01:02 PM
quote:
On a serious note... if it were me... i would wait for Brock or Don Guhl to finish cracking the ECU completely. Heres why:
1) secondary removal is a PITA... lotsa equipment to remove. Even more so if you remove the throttle body assembly to negate the risk of dropping a screw into your engine.
2) what if your engine suffers an internal catastrophe? First thing the dealer is gonna say is "warranty voided. we saw evidence of tampering".
When the ECU gets cracked completely theres a good chance it can be programmed to behave as if the flies were gone. All you need to do is get another factory ECU and have it flashed. If you have a warranty claim put your stock ECU back on and drop off your scoot.
What do you fellas think?
The only way a screw can get in the motor is if you drop it then reach for the throttle and turn it, primary valves are closed to keep the screw for falling into the motor.
I'm waiting for the reflash to include the correction of power lose in 1-3 gears.
wee
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Ninjawarrior1244
Expert Class
Posts: 115
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posted May 29, 2012 01:11 PM
 Edited By: Ninjawarrior1244 on 29 May 2012 21:24
I pulled my flies in 30 minutes, and buttoned everything back up working alone. Use an extended pole magnet when your phillips head is in there so the screw comes out with a magnet and then use long nose piers to remove the fly when both screws are out. Simple, have removed flies on 9 C-14's and ZX14's never had an issue.
Go slow think about what you are doing..and enjoy the new found acceleration.
I think the ECU flashing has been tweaked as much as it can be. There is only so much HP built into this engine, the pipe, PC, lower restrictive air filter, and ECU flashing are all tweaks to squeeze out any extra power that may be built into the engine, that the factory has to install these restrictions for emissions etc.
I think Brock was able to get about 227 HP with race gas on the dyno, there may be one or two more HP in there when the Ram Air is operational at high speeds.....so this is about all we can expect with this stock motor.....ain't too bad...nothing else out there can touch it!
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Speed is fine...but accuracy is Deadly!
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hagrid
Expert Class
Posts: 373
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posted May 29, 2012 01:12 PM
@wheelie: did you remove your flies?
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blue 14R
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Wheelie
Needs a life
Old Man
Posts: 6902
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posted May 29, 2012 01:13 PM
quote:
@wheelie: did you remove your flies?
yes, back in November, never looked back
wee
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blue07
Expert Class
Posts: 485
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posted May 29, 2012 09:04 PM
Edited By: blue07 on 30 May 2012 05:07
Okay...then I'm seriously thinking on doing ths...BUT....I have the Brock's Guhl flash...flies opening sooner(at what rpm IDK)...and the Full exhaust w/the PCV Brock's streetmap 3.Wheelie...(or anyone having done this)...should I still remove them?She's very smooth now on the bottom end...you mean I would get MORE 'kick' down low that I'm getting now?(I know,you haven't ridden my bike)...but...I think it could still get a bit crisper?IDK....if it can...I'd like to.
Let me ask here then...do I need to heat the screwdriver with these new 14R screws?I didn't do that with my 07....but most guys say they had to.
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Bishopzx12
Zone Head
Posts: 517
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posted May 30, 2012 03:10 AM
I will ask this again is there anyone anyone out there close to s.c. that would be generous enough to do mine over a case and some pizza
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1996 ZX7R
1999 ZX9R
1999 ZX11
2000 ZX12R 1270
2002 GSXR 1000 "I was Drunk"
2003 ZX12R 1375
2006 ZX14
2012 ZX14R
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Seno
Pro
BANNED FOR LIFE!
Posts: 1230
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posted May 30, 2012 03:19 AM
Edited By: Seno on 30 May 2012 11:34
quote:
On a serious note... if it were me... i would wait for Brock or Don Guhl to finish cracking the ECU completely. Heres why:
1) secondary removal is a PITA... lotsa equipment to remove. Even more so if you remove the throttle body assembly to negate the risk of dropping a screw into your engine.
2) what if your engine suffers an internal catastrophe? First thing the dealer is gonna say is "warranty voided. we saw evidence of tampering".
When the ECU gets cracked completely theres a good chance it can be programmed to behave as if the flies were gone. All you need to do is get another factory ECU and have it flashed. If you have a warranty claim put your stock ECU back on and drop off your scoot.
What do you fellas think?
I know when Powerhouse was working on the flash the flies were monitored and different opening points were played with. I would be lying if I said I knew when they open now but I do know it was changed. I am sure Guhl has his opening earlier also. There were like 50+ Dyno runs done to determine what makes the best power.
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2012 Black 14R -> Completely done!
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Bishopzx12
Zone Head
Posts: 517
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posted May 30, 2012 04:23 AM
how much is the guhl flash
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1996 ZX7R
1999 ZX9R
1999 ZX11
2000 ZX12R 1270
2002 GSXR 1000 "I was Drunk"
2003 ZX12R 1375
2006 ZX14
2012 ZX14R
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Ninjawarrior1244
Expert Class
Posts: 115
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posted May 30, 2012 04:58 AM
Edited By: Ninjawarrior1244 on 30 May 2012 13:03
375.00 approximately, too much money to pick up 1-2 HP on the top end. Takes less than 10 seconds to plug your ECU into his computer push a button and done...back to you in 24 hours. If it would give you 7-10 HP it would be worth it. But, it seems to run a little better and approaches the 200MPH, and adds about 500 rpm to your engine output.
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Speed is fine...but accuracy is Deadly!
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Seno
Pro
BANNED FOR LIFE!
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posted May 30, 2012 04:59 AM
Guhl's is 375, ECUnleashed is 450.... Personally I think the ECUnleashed people are stupid for being $75 more expensive. I got my flash done free of charge because they used my bike for the testing. The Ecunleashed flash does have a custom map file built in it so you don't need a power commander. I would love to get my hands in a Guhl ECU and use the same bike on the Dyno and see what the numbers are on both... Anyone in the LI,NY area? I have access to a dyno....
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2012 Black 14R -> Completely done!
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Kawifast
Expert Class
Posts: 184
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posted May 30, 2012 08:04 AM
quote:
She's very smooth now on the bottom end...you mean I would get MORE 'kick' down low that I'm getting now?(I know,you haven't ridden my bike)...but...I think it could still get a bit crisper?IDK....if it can...I'd like to.
Are you comparing this to the low end you were getting from your stock setup vs Brocks Full System, PC5 and Guhl flash? In other words do you feel like you lost some bottom with your full system vs the stock headers and cans in exchange for higher rpm power? Or are you just looking for yet more low end than what you have today?
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2012 Kawasaki ZX14-R
2012 BMW S1000RR
2012 BMW K1600GT
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blue07
Expert Class
Posts: 485
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posted May 30, 2012 09:38 AM
Edited By: blue07 on 30 May 2012 17:50
No...not comparing to a stock setup.I feel it gained a 'quicker' power feel...all the way along the rpm range.It's really not something that 'needs' to be done....no way...but if I could get an even brisker take off thing...that would be cool.I think the Brock's mapping for this package is very good...and built for a street bike with secondaries...and the guhl flash of opening them sooner.He did say.."you street guys,no need to remove if you're riding the street"...I just don't want to somehow throw the bottom mapping off(a/f) be taking those out if it's not going to give a nice 'kick'....I can definitely live with it...for sure.It's not lacking at all.Always fun to have 'just a bit more' if ya can...
As for higher RPM power....I honestly haven't 'reached' that 'feeling' yet that I know of.I haven't gassed her all the way open yet.And blasted up through the gears.Agressive acellerating up through the gears..yes...but not like a drag guy would do..pinned.She's very torquey and strong feeling they way I've done it....put pinned?Nope...haven't done that yet(redline,yes).
Okay..I think someone here asked...is it comparable to removing the secondaries on a stock 06 or 07.I did that...I know how that feels.That's what I'm asking really.The full system and all..PCV and mapping,flashed ECU may very well kick the performance up 'farther' than fly removal....so I don't want to mess with removing them if it's going to have no effect really with the mods I've got.
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GixxerJohn
Zone Head
2012 zx14R SE
Posts: 537
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posted May 30, 2012 09:52 AM
I know im hated here,but i have to answer you. I had the same questions you do,and i listened to smokin and wheelie and i got rid of the flies and added some gearing and i love the bike to death. Down low it feels like a turbo almost, like its always a half turn of the throttle away from tearing your arms off. I love this bike now. Get rid of the flies and much more importantly get some gearing and your everyday down low crusing around is amazing.
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2012 ZX14R SE
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blue07
Expert Class
Posts: 485
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posted May 30, 2012 10:12 AM
Well...I don't want to change my gearing just yet....I've a good idea what gearing changes feel like...my 07...16/43.Leaving my gearing alone for now.Perhaps up ahead...but not now.
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GixxerJohn
Zone Head
2012 zx14R SE
Posts: 537
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posted May 30, 2012 10:37 AM
quote:
Well...I don't want to change my gearing just yet....I've a good idea what gearing changes feel like...my 07...16/43.Leaving my gearing alone for now.Perhaps up ahead...but not now.
oh ok it seemed like you needed more low end thats why i recommend gearing. I added a tooth to the rear and removed the flies at the same time and when i got the chance to really ride it afterwards i was in love.
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2012 ZX14R SE
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blue07
Expert Class
Posts: 485
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posted May 30, 2012 10:45 AM
Edited By: blue07 on 30 May 2012 18:50
Tell ya the truth...I'll never be riding my bike like it's a dragster.I mean....how much wheel spin does a guy need...tires are very spendy.I never punch it when I leave a light,or anything like that.It's really okay as it is...Just wanted some feedback...that's all.I'm thinking most of the guys who have taken em out did so right away mainly.It's easy to 'forget' what it was like beforehand.
My Guhl flash is opening them sooner anyway...so IDK...taking them out may not do anything for my bike at this point.If a dragger could ride my bike...then they could see IF that removal would be something for mine.But I'll never be dragracing...so...it's kinda moot I guess.
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GixxerJohn
Zone Head
2012 zx14R SE
Posts: 537
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posted May 30, 2012 11:12 AM
Yeah not a dragger either. And i dont tear ass from lights either, but with flies out and gearing i love just cruising around and every once in awhile i love cracking open the throttle and having INSTANT power. And its definitely much more than when it was stock.
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2012 ZX14R SE
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Bad in Black
Expert Class
Posts: 348
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posted May 30, 2012 01:47 PM
Leave'em alone Montana......no need to mess with perfection  It sounds like yer fine as is.....if it aint broke don't fix it I say lol.
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Kawifast
Expert Class
Posts: 184
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posted May 30, 2012 02:37 PM
I have to admit I still don't get the PC AND ECU flash combination UNLESS it's only to:
1-open the flies sooner
2-raise redline
3-delete top end limiter
with NO AFR adjustments to whatever map or tune you currently have on your existing ECU.
I always thought of an ECU flash as something one would do in lieu of a Fuel Manager or as some would say the preferred method- to set it and forget it.
No PC between the bike and the ECU to cause any problems, but all the benefit of having a tuned or at least a mapped bike.
If you were for example to have a map flashed on your bike from Brock or whomever, then had your ECU flashed by Don Guhl, wouldn't you be overriding the Brock map for Guhl's, (if this flash does indeed include A/FR changes as well as the aforementioned topics?
I had Don flash my ECU on my C-14 with fueling changes and to open the secondaries sooner with the whole idea being; $375 got me what I wanted without buying a PC and then paying for a tune etc.
What am I missing?
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2012 Kawasaki ZX14-R
2012 BMW S1000RR
2012 BMW K1600GT
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BlackMagic14
Needs a job
Posts: 2058
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posted May 30, 2012 03:03 PM
Removing the flies will be most noticeable during street riding. In my
Opinion it's a no brainer! If you have any kind of
Mechanic inclination you should be able to do it yourself in less than an hour. A couple of things to keep in mind. Get a NEW QUALITY screwdriver with a long "shank" at least 7-8 inches and make sure you get a specific screwdriver I think it's a number 6 but the numbers wore off mine long ago so I am not sure. Also and some people think this is a little excessive but I say better a little extra work than having to fix a problem but use this technique and I garuntee no problems. Take your new long screwdriver and heat the tip very hot like with a propane torch or something place the screwdriver in the screw and give it a good solid whack or two with a mallet let the screwdriver sit on the screw for several seconds to heat up the loctite and turn screw slowly while applying constant downward pressure. Repeat this on every screw and it will be easy as pie. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
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