Kawifast
Expert Class
Posts: 184
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posted May 14, 2012 11:39 AM
New gearing?
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2012 Kawasaki ZX14-R
2012 BMW S1000RR
2012 BMW K1600GT
  
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GixxerJohn
Zone Head
2012 zx14R SE
Posts: 537
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posted May 14, 2012 12:47 PM
Yeah went down 1 in the front,but i can't stand the look of the plain steel sprocket in the rear,so i ordered a 43 tooth rear from vortex in black. Going to be much easier to keep clean looking after cleaning chain!!!!!!!!!!!!
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2012 ZX14R SE
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Greggy
Expert Class
Posts: 150
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posted May 14, 2012 04:59 PM
Wow so it's the fuelling that causes it, aggrivated by a gearing change.
This is going to be an interesting topic to follow as if it can be resolvd by a simple ECU upgrade I'm sure KHI should be able to applya 'fix' during a service, assuming they get on board with this issue of course.
Cheers
Greggy
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2012 ZX-14R ABS - Spark Black - Two Brothers V.A.L.E. Carbon slip ons P1X tips - Powerbronze DB screen.
1990 ZX-10 Ninja - Megacycle stainless steel mufflers - gear-sack rack - tinted screen.
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Wheelie
Needs a life
Old Man
Posts: 6902
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posted May 14, 2012 05:05 PM
quote:
Wow so it's the fuelling that causes it, aggrivated by a gearing change.
This is going to be an interesting topic to follow as if it can be resolvd by a simple ECU upgrade I'm sure KHI should be able to applya 'fix' during a service, assuming they get on board with this issue of course.
Cheers
Greggy
nope, it's the way you ride it, motors are not intended to do 20 mph in 3rd gear at an extreme low rpm and blip the throttle, you can have the same effect in a standard shift automobile,
wee
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GixxerJohn
Zone Head
2012 zx14R SE
Posts: 537
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posted May 15, 2012 04:17 AM
 Edited By: GixxerJohn on 15 May 2012 12:20
Wheelie AGAIN NOBODY IS SAYING ITS DOING IT IN 3RD GEAR. Its in first gear pulling away or driving very slow around lets say a parking lot. Whats soooo hard to understand?? Even brock has put out a newer map that got rid of it. So if brock puts out a map, and that said map fixes the PROBLEM there is the proof of that said problem. PEROID END OF DISCUSSION!!!!!!!"
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2012 ZX14R SE
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Wheelie
Needs a life
Old Man
Posts: 6902
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posted May 15, 2012 04:26 AM
quote:
Wheelie AGAIN NOBODY IS SAYING ITS DOING IT IN 3RD GEAR. Its in first gear pulling away or driving very slow around lets say a parking lot. Whats soooo hard to understand?? Even brock has put out a newer map that got rid of it. So if brock puts out a map, and that said map fixes the PROBLEM there is the proof of that said problem. PEROID END OF DISCUSSION!!!!!!!"
I can make it happen in any gear, lug it as low as you can and start bumping the throttle, it will buck, no need for you to tell me END OF DISCUSSION .
wee
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GixxerJohn
Zone Head
2012 zx14R SE
Posts: 537
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posted May 15, 2012 04:43 AM
Wheelie come on man,all kidding aside we all know that in ANY manual transmission car or bike if you lug the engine in to high of a gear thats going to happen. Noone is stating that, and you know it. Dont start shit and be an asshole like that GIXXERJOHN kid. One asshole is enough on this forum!!!!
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2012 ZX14R SE
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Greggy
Expert Class
Posts: 150
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posted May 15, 2012 04:59 AM
Wheelie it's definitely a fault of the bike (when the gearing is no longer stock) and not how it's ridden.
When I had a 16 tooth front sprocket on my 14R and was going through a slow corner (in 1st gear) whilst holding a constant (slight) throttle the bike would go on power... off power... on power... off power... on power... off power... until I opned up the throtle more and accelerated away. Doing EXACTLY the same riding on the same corner with stock gearing and there was no issue at all.
In such situations there is no lower gear to use (I'm already in 1st) and you don't want (or need) to use more throttle as then the bike will tend to stand up, run wide and you'll take the corner quicker than you want to and quicker than is safe to do so (especially when the roads are wet).
I don't consider being in first gear around a slow corner with slight throttle applied as 'lugging' the bike. I am also not 'blipping' the throttle whilst all this occurs, as the on power... off power.. on power 'phenomenon' just comes from out of nowhere and is very unexpected.
Then again I dont exect anyone to understand the problem unless they have experienced it for themselves.
It's certainly not going to show up on the drag strip or during any spirited riding, but a road user will likely notice it eventually, assuming they have a bike effected by the 'problem'.
Greggy
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2012 ZX-14R ABS - Spark Black - Two Brothers V.A.L.E. Carbon slip ons P1X tips - Powerbronze DB screen.
1990 ZX-10 Ninja - Megacycle stainless steel mufflers - gear-sack rack - tinted screen.
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mick46
Expert Class
Posts: 112
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posted May 15, 2012 04:59 AM
As I said on Brocks forum weeks ago (in answer to the original "off idle throttle response"post) no one in their right mind would ride around in ANY gear with less than 2k on the tach. That it just not how one rides a motorcycle! You disengage the clutch. That's not some peculiar trait of the ZX14R or Brocks pipe or map. In my diesel van sure I can drive round and even stamp on the throttle from 800 rpms and nothing but silky smooth power, but that is not a high performance motorcycle. If you want the actual 'PERIOD END OF DISCUSSION', it is that you are using the vehicle incorrectly ! And thats not 'starting shit' or being an 'asshole' that is just plain truth !
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2012 ZZR-1400
Alien Frogskin Green
Brocks CT Meg, PCV & QuickShifter, Brembo M4 Monoblocs, Grimeca 320mm discs, Nitron Race shock, Gilles rearsets , adjusters and TCA axle nut, Supersprox 42T, DID nickel plate X-ring, HEL brake lines, bar risers, shorty levers, tail tidy, Zero Gravity screen, RandG spools and bar ends, GPR V4 damper.... Done !
1999 Hayabusa , stretched lowered and a 60 shot !
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mick46
Expert Class
Posts: 112
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posted May 15, 2012 05:05 AM
In answer to Greggys post, I have not changed the gearing myself so my comments refer only to the "problem" on standard gearing ! (which I have only experienced at less than 2K rpms)
A thought just occurred to me that may have been mentioned before... Have you calibrated the PCV TPS ?
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2012 ZZR-1400
Alien Frogskin Green
Brocks CT Meg, PCV & QuickShifter, Brembo M4 Monoblocs, Grimeca 320mm discs, Nitron Race shock, Gilles rearsets , adjusters and TCA axle nut, Supersprox 42T, DID nickel plate X-ring, HEL brake lines, bar risers, shorty levers, tail tidy, Zero Gravity screen, RandG spools and bar ends, GPR V4 damper.... Done !
1999 Hayabusa , stretched lowered and a 60 shot !
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Greggy
Expert Class
Posts: 150
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posted May 15, 2012 05:08 AM
Ok then how do you explain the fact that the 'problem' does not occur with stock gearing (my personal experience) and does not occur with a modified fuel map (other peoples experience).
If there is no problem in the first place then why does this happen at all?
And if we are indeed just 'riding it wrong' then why can't we make the problem occur with stock gearing and/or a modified fuel map?
Basic logic dictates that:
A) Such a problem does exist, and
B) It cannot be the riders fault.
Greggy
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2012 ZX-14R ABS - Spark Black - Two Brothers V.A.L.E. Carbon slip ons P1X tips - Powerbronze DB screen.
1990 ZX-10 Ninja - Megacycle stainless steel mufflers - gear-sack rack - tinted screen.
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Greggy
Expert Class
Posts: 150
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posted May 15, 2012 05:15 AM
Ahhh ok mick46 thanks for clarifying that - my bike runs perfect with stock gearing so I see your point. It was only with a 16T front sprocket that things went weird.
I would love to find out what the fix is, as I'd love to go back to the 16 tooth!!!!!!!
Greggy
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2012 ZX-14R ABS - Spark Black - Two Brothers V.A.L.E. Carbon slip ons P1X tips - Powerbronze DB screen.
1990 ZX-10 Ninja - Megacycle stainless steel mufflers - gear-sack rack - tinted screen.
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Wheelie
Needs a life
Old Man
Posts: 6902
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posted May 15, 2012 05:19 AM
I dont see how a new map would fix the problem when swapping sprockets does, so did the map fix it with the 16 sprocket?
wee
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GixxerJohn
Zone Head
2012 zx14R SE
Posts: 537
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posted May 15, 2012 05:22 AM
Greggy PLEASE STOP trying to explain, they are simply not getting it. But man you were dead on about the constant throttle in a corner, i couldn't explain it any better. Like i said brock himself address it and FIXED IT. Enough said. But no its got to be us riders. This is my 12th street bike and had plenty of dirt bikes, but all of a sudden i forgot how to ride a bike and so have MANY people around the world. Like i said END OF DISCUSSION.
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2012 ZX14R SE
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GixxerJohn
Zone Head
2012 zx14R SE
Posts: 537
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posted May 15, 2012 05:25 AM
Edited By: GixxerJohn on 15 May 2012 13:26
Yes wheelie i know of three people who have downloaded the new maps with lower gearing and the problem was solved. Its probalynot every bike, but its enough of them. And a call to brocks says the problem seems to be fixed with the new maps.
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2012 ZX14R SE
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mick46
Expert Class
Posts: 112
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posted May 15, 2012 05:31 AM
On stock gearing the 'problem' is there at very low speeds and very small throttle openings, presumably the torque multiplication of lowered gearing is what is making it worse. If you look at the shape of the torque curve, when you get to the very bottom end it is rising very steeply (in terms of back wheel thrust even more steeply with lower gearing), From reading Brocks comments about the new Street map he has softened the very bottom end to make it more suitable for slow speed street riding, which is not the natural habitat of this bike, especially with a race pipe .
Why have you changed the gearing by the way ?
I'm sure Mr Kawasaki would say "put the gearing back to standard and put the standard pipes back on and all 'problems' will go away"!
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2012 ZZR-1400
Alien Frogskin Green
Brocks CT Meg, PCV & QuickShifter, Brembo M4 Monoblocs, Grimeca 320mm discs, Nitron Race shock, Gilles rearsets , adjusters and TCA axle nut, Supersprox 42T, DID nickel plate X-ring, HEL brake lines, bar risers, shorty levers, tail tidy, Zero Gravity screen, RandG spools and bar ends, GPR V4 damper.... Done !
1999 Hayabusa , stretched lowered and a 60 shot !
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GixxerJohn
Zone Head
2012 zx14R SE
Posts: 537
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posted May 15, 2012 05:36 AM
Edited By: GixxerJohn on 15 May 2012 13:37
Mick i do actually agree with u on that my friend. This is a race bike that is definitely meant for some serious drag racing I'll give you that. But us mere mortals who just drive around the streets it is a very small problem every once in awhile. And like i you said all brock did was take out the bottom end fueling, you can see that when you open up the map.
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2012 ZX14R SE
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Greggy
Expert Class
Posts: 150
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posted May 15, 2012 05:37 AM
Maybe if Brock himself could read this forum post he may have some useful information to add? And/or maybe other ZX14 tuners could look into it further and create a theory. If that was fed back to the proper channels at KHI maybe a fix from the factory is not out o the question?
Otherwise, I'm all out of ideas myself 
But I thank all for commenting on this issue, as we do need the nay sayers to keep us honest and thinking rationally, as its somtimes easy to misinterpret what is going on.
Greggy
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2012 ZX-14R ABS - Spark Black - Two Brothers V.A.L.E. Carbon slip ons P1X tips - Powerbronze DB screen.
1990 ZX-10 Ninja - Megacycle stainless steel mufflers - gear-sack rack - tinted screen.
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Kawifast
Expert Class
Posts: 184
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posted May 15, 2012 07:46 AM
There is NO issue what so ever with the factory fueling or exhaust if the bike is ridden properly. I have over 4K miles on my stock everything 14R and the fueling is about the best I've ever experienced on a new motorcycle with stock everything. I'm also on the wait list for my CT Duals and am already in possession of the PC5 from Brock with the original streetmap loaded on it. Thus my interest in these threads 
The issues seems to have been raised by various owners and Brocks Peformance users as it relates to the original street map with Brocks exhaust.
Brock has clearly outlined on his user forum, (that any on record customer can access as a member), that there are new maps for the 2012 14R.
I won't go into the detail as to maintain the confidentiality of the map program and integrity of it however Brock gives a full explanation to owners and private members as to this change.
All that said, it is very hard to seperate the BS from the fact when certain members run around through all the various ZX14 forums, (and almost unbelievably) the SAME forum with different names! I can think of one on here who uses at least 2 names and possibly more Brock seemingly has heard from the more credible of the bunch and investigated the issue for himself, and admirably set about securing a fix as quickly as he could. In some cases probably even building custom maps for his customers. This level of service blows my mind quite frankly.
I have to say however that if an unkown entity started reading these threads they would assume that the maps were junk and needed a complete overhaul. I feel sorry for Brock in this case since that does not seem to be the case at all. Many have used the original street map and found no issues or their riding style has created no problems. However there have been some, and even one case where an experienced rider removed his Brock system, CT Single, PC5 and returned to stock due to the lower speed bucking. I don't believe this particualr rider was lugging the bike to the degree that would cause that. He has since reinstalled his full system and has posted his findings, which are oustanding and a complete resolution to his issue.
The whole thing has really been blown so out of proportion that it must drive Brock nuts.
He heard of an issue, created a new map, released it via the map support program, and has heard from non track, street only riders, that the bike now runs better than it ever has. It's just a Map for Christs sake!
Sounds like a great success story to me. Racers are happy, Street riders are happy and everyone is enjoying Brock Racing products due to his willingness to hear from a segment of his user group and releasing a new map to "fix" the issues they were having.
Again, this doesn't have anything to do with gearing, or stock bike fueling, exhaust etc.
I just wish those who continue to run around sounding off about the various maps, updates, etc etc etc would at least have the sense to post those thoughts or findings under a single name. To do anything else is...well, just nutty to me.
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2012 Kawasaki ZX14-R
2012 BMW S1000RR
2012 BMW K1600GT
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shawnski
Pro
Posts: 1809
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posted May 15, 2012 08:28 AM
quote:
Mick i do actually agree with u on that my friend. This is a race bike that is definitely meant for some serious drag racing I'll give you that. But us mere mortals who just drive around the streets it is a very small problem every once in awhile. And like i you said all brock did was take out the bottom end fueling, you can see that when you open up the map.
if you can't handle a little bucking at VERY LOW RPM then we all should buy a moped... they come automatics!! for goodness sakes that is why they have the clutch and our skills to use them...
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GixxerJohn
Zone Head
2012 zx14R SE
Posts: 537
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posted May 15, 2012 08:39 AM
Kawifast i find your ramblings about the subject that you yourself said that you have not experienced to be uneducated and false. So you like many people whose lucky enough not to have a bike that does this think the rest of us are lying??? Im sure i have many more miles on a bike then you my friend. And then you go off on this different name same guy rant. Stick to the subject of the post, or better yet if you don't have this problem and can't truly answer it.............don't.
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2012 ZX14R SE
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blue07
Expert Class
Posts: 485
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posted May 15, 2012 08:49 AM
Edited By: blue07 on 15 May 2012 16:51
Guys...guys...Stock...I did not feel the lurching AT PARKING LOT SPEEDS.No feathering of the clutch needed.Nothing.Wee's saying he can make it occur in 3rd...I never tried that.I'm sure anyone can purposely lug the engine and make it occur in almost any gear?Wee said 'blipping the throttle'...I didn't 'blip the throttle'...only held it at one spot...the bike acted that way on it's own.The only blipping I did was pulling in the clutch and feathering it,and a quick blip made the bike smooth out...for a few feet anyway.
Riding in a parking lot or behind a line of cars or whatever...you will NOT be going above 2K...will you?I wouldn't.Just a slow movement...barely off throtle.That's when mine was doing it...the new map solved it.NOW...this is with the Brock's CT single system....IDK IF it would do any of this with something else.It did not do it stock...It's corrected now...
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Kawifast
Expert Class
Posts: 184
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posted May 15, 2012 08:52 AM
quote:
quote:
Mick i do actually agree with u on that my friend. This is a race bike that is definitely meant for some serious drag racing I'll give you that. But us mere mortals who just drive around the streets it is a very small problem every once in awhile. And like i you said all brock did was take out the bottom end fueling, you can see that when you open up the map.
if you can't handle a little bucking at VERY LOW RPM then we all should buy a moped... they come automatics!! for goodness sakes that is why they have the clutch and our skills to use them...
Totally agree Shawnski and it's what made this issue all the more confusing. I couldn't ride the bike a "low" rpms in 3rd gear if I wanted to, nor can I understand how that could even be taken as a legitimate concern.
Seperating the illogical complaints from the real ones was the challenge BuT there did seem to be enough legitimate concerns with low end fueling for the street and the similarities with the track map where more fuel was being added on a consistent basis to aid in launch that was causing a bit of an issue even when the bike was not being lugged that revising the map made sense for the street map.
Again doesn't seem like a big issue to me since steps were taken to revise it and the users seem happy now.
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2012 Kawasaki ZX14-R
2012 BMW S1000RR
2012 BMW K1600GT
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GixxerJohn
Zone Head
2012 zx14R SE
Posts: 537
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posted May 15, 2012 08:59 AM
quote:
Guys...guys...Stock...I did not feel the lurching AT PARKING LOT SPEEDS.No feathering of the clutch needed.Nothing.Wee's saying he can make it occur in 3rd...I never tried that.I'm sure anyone can purposely lug the engine and make it occur in almost any gear?Wee said 'blipping the throttle'...I didn't 'blip the throttle'...only held it at one spot...the bike acted that way on it's own.The only blipping I did was pulling in the clutch and feathering it,and a quick blip made the bike smooth out...for a few feet anyway.
Riding in a parking lot or behind a line of cars or whatever...you will NOT be going above 2K...will you?I wouldn't.Just a slow movement...barely off throtle.That's when mine was doing it...the new map solved it.NOW...this is with the Brock's CT single system....IDK IF it would do any of this with something else.It did not do it stock...It's corrected now...
i also have the ct single system, but it didn't do any of this until i dropped gearing. Im sure when i install the new street map it will all be cleared up. I expect nothing more than great service from brock and thats what we have gotten again.
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2012 ZX14R SE
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blue07
Expert Class
Posts: 485
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posted May 15, 2012 09:09 AM
Edited By: blue07 on 15 May 2012 17:15
Ya...he took care of me really quick.Addressed my deal and got me a new map out right away.It's all good.My buddy has an 08 Busa...with an Alienhead on there and a PCIII.When his is idling...it's going up and down like pretty pronounced and quick.Regular pulse.Not like it's lazily 'hunting'.I rode his...but didn't actually cruise slowly like I have with mine...so I don't know if his was doing the lurching thing or not.I don't think so.I didn't notice it anyway.But the idle pulsing...very apparent.Nothing like a factory idle.BTW...it will not appear on a brisk takeoff.Or even a just slow takeoff...only walking speeds...and holding the throttle at one amount.I don't think you can go that slowly at 2K as was suggested without holding the brake?I don't hold the brake for u-turns and stuff like that...I'll check next time...but I don't think it's anywhere near 2K?
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