smokinZX14
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posted December 24, 2011 01:47 PM
 Edited By: smokinZX14 on 24 Dec 2011 22:26
2012 intake ports ...
2012 intake ports ...
Number 3 >> Note the stacks are different , this inside stacks are tall and the outside ones are short ..
Number 4
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
  
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dakota9498
Pro
Posts: 1181
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posted December 24, 2011 02:21 PM
That's interesting. I wonder if it will benefit from all one or the other for drag racing? It is probably the best setup for the street though.
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2008 ZX14
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Wheelie
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Old Man
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posted December 24, 2011 02:23 PM
I want short one's all the way across.
wee
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Shane661
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posted December 24, 2011 02:25 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 24 Dec 2011 22:49
The outside ports (in the head) are longer, so it makes sense that the stacks are shorter. If the TB spacing is still the same, the outside ports are kind of troublesome. On the 12R the outside ports are spread further out, which allows for a straighter port.
Shane
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Shane661
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posted December 24, 2011 02:26 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 24 Dec 2011 22:27
quote:
I want short one's all the way across.
wee
I can see myself ordering a couple of short ones to test. 
All shorts did shift the torque peak up on mine and Racheal's Gen 1's.
Shane
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BrucerZX14
Expert Class
Posts: 373
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posted December 24, 2011 03:20 PM
When I had my '03 R1, the aftermarket stacks were only for the two inside TBs. This is very similar.
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kawa74
Expert Class
Posts: 226
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posted December 24, 2011 03:45 PM
You have to look at it as 4 independent Engines , you want them all to put out the same HP
Each cylinder is the same 360.25 cc, you fill all 4 with the same port Volumn., Balance
KHI wanted total volumn from valve seat to Bell mouth, Equal cc's. , Total Balance .between all ports , short and long..
Total Balance ., equal HP
.
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"I have never met a man so Ignorant that I coun't Learn from him"..."Galileo"
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Wheelie
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Old Man
Posts: 6902
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posted December 24, 2011 03:48 PM
quote:
You have to look at it as 4 independent Engines , you want them all to put out the same HP
Each cylinder is the same 360.25 cc, you fill all 4 with the same port Volumn., Balance
KHI wanted total volumn from valve seat to Bell mouth, Equal cc's. , Total Balance .between all ports , short and long..
Total Balance ., equal HP
.
so don't mess with them?
wee
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted December 24, 2011 04:00 PM
quote:
quote:
You have to look at it as 4 independent Engines , you want them all to put out the same HP
Each cylinder is the same 360.25 cc, you fill all 4 with the same port Volumn., Balance
KHI wanted total volumn from valve seat to Bell mouth, Equal cc's. , Total Balance .between all ports , short and long..
Total Balance ., equal HP
.
so don't mess with them?
wee
I'm sure we can get Brock to test them .... Then we will know if it's worth changing them out or swapping sizes around ..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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suix
Expert Class
Posts: 122
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posted December 24, 2011 04:57 PM
busa's stock stacks oso comes with longer 2,3.
most change to 4 short?
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Lucky14
Pro
Posts: 1439
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posted December 24, 2011 05:20 PM
Edited By: Lucky14 on 25 Dec 2011 01:21
quote:
quote:
You have to look at it as 4 independent Engines , you want them all to put out the same HP
Each cylinder is the same 360.25 cc, you fill all 4 with the same port Volumn., Balance
KHI wanted total volumn from valve seat to Bell mouth, Equal cc's. , Total Balance .between all ports , short and long..
Total Balance ., equal HP
.
so don't mess with them?
wee
I agree with kawa74.
IMHO, don't mess with them ................... unless you mess with all 4 to keep all 4 total intake runner length the same .............. ie, shorten all 4 or lengthen all 4 by the same amount.
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If it doesn't move and should, use the WD-40.
If it shouldn't move and does, use the duct tape.
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Shane661
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posted December 25, 2011 04:01 AM
Here are some measurements, Lee. Let me know if you need more.
For those who may not know, the Gen 1 has all equal length stacks.
Shane
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justoyz2
Zone Head
Justoyz Racing
Posts: 858
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posted December 25, 2011 05:33 AM
from my understanding, the longer two (normally inside) helps the bike to produce more tq.
I have always changed mine to shorter, for quicker air ingestion, this produced more top end.
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2012 zx14R-blue,2012 zx14R-black, 2014 zx14Trbo, 2011 zx10R, 2007 zx10 Turbo.....
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CajunBoyz
Zone Head
Posts: 702
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posted December 25, 2011 06:21 AM
quote:
Here are some measurements, Lee. Let me know if you need more.
For those who may not know, the Gen 1 has all equal length stacks.
Shane
Shane , Also advertising for Coke Zero ??? LOL Merry Christmas
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"Cajun Boyz with Bad Ass Toys"
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Shane661
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posted December 25, 2011 06:25 AM
quote:
Shane , Also advertising for Coke Zero ??? LOL Merry Christmas
Yeah, and don't forget Starrett Calipers too! 
Shane
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Wheelie
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Old Man
Posts: 6902
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posted December 25, 2011 06:55 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
You have to look at it as 4 independent Engines , you want them all to put out the same HP
Each cylinder is the same 360.25 cc, you fill all 4 with the same port Volumn., Balance
KHI wanted total volumn from valve seat to Bell mouth, Equal cc's. , Total Balance .between all ports , short and long..
Total Balance ., equal HP
.
so don't mess with them?
wee
I agree with kawa74.
IMHO, don't mess with them ................... unless you mess with all 4 to keep all 4 total intake runner length the same .............. ie, shorten all 4 or lengthen all 4 by the same amount.
ok, aint gonna mess with em. Thanks kawa74 for all your flow information.
wee
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Y2KZX12R
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CompetitionCNC.com
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posted December 25, 2011 07:26 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 25 Dec 2011 15:41
Shane is correct. The outside ports are longer so the stacks are shorter to keep all the intake tract lengths equal.
The overall length of the intake tract isn't actually a volume issue its a length and timing issue. The positive then negative pressure waves Travers the port in x amount of time depending on the speed of sound (which is based on the temperature of the air) and the length of the overall tract from the valve seat to the bell mouth of the air horn.
The waves change sign when they get to either end and turn around and go back the other end, then they do the same all over again continuously.
The waves are generated by the top of the piston and the frequency is dependent on engine rpm where as the amplitude is dependent on (mostly) the piston acceleration. The rpm can change but the tract length (on this engine) does not change so the stacks are "tuned" to take advantage of the positive pressure wave timing.
There are 1st, second, third, fourth, etc. order waves that can be used with varying amplitudes.
Using software to simulate the wave tuning we designed these throttle bodies and stacks to take advantage of this higher order wave tuning to produce peak power at 11,800 rpm instead of 10,400 rpm.
This may help you visualize whats going on in there.
And here are the working prototypes on our race bike. 1570 cc stroker making peak power at just under 12,000 rpm. 36mm intake valves and 30mm exhaust valves. Peak power is now over 270 hp on a dj250i. The cams are very large.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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justoyz2
Zone Head
Justoyz Racing
Posts: 858
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posted December 25, 2011 09:08 AM
Jim,
So, changing the length of the velocity stack to make them all even length, what exactly did I do?
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2012 zx14R-blue,2012 zx14R-black, 2014 zx14Trbo, 2011 zx10R, 2007 zx10 Turbo.....
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KZScott
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high on speed
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posted December 25, 2011 09:20 AM
quote:
Jim,
So, changing the length of the velocity stack to make them all even length, what exactly did I do?
going to guess that you raised the hp curve on 2 and the other 2 stayed the same. on the dyno it would all "even out" but inside the motor is not "balanced"
??
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
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oldkawboy
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posted December 25, 2011 01:35 PM
I remember years ago discussing the same thing when the ZX6R came with different length stacks.
I always thought the difference with the inside (2&3) cylinders running at a slightly different temperature than the outside cylinders was the reason.
Dan
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kawa74
Expert Class
Posts: 226
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posted December 25, 2011 02:49 PM
quote:
quote:
Jim,
So, changing the length of the velocity stack to make them all even length, what exactly did I do?
going to guess that you raised the hp curve on 2 and the other 2 stayed the same. on the dyno it would all "even out" but inside the motor is not "balanced"
??
Y
Yes Scott, You can measure this with a stiff piece of Wire, bend it to match curve of Port and measure Center Line of PORT , Valve seat to the Bellmouth, they all need to be the same, BALANCED, So KHI didn't Ajust the port Lenghten,so KHI ajusted the Stacks., this also ajust total VOLUMEN.
You have to look at a PORT and TB as ONE unit, just a longer PORT ??
. A/F mix has a Mass or Weight and traveling @ Average speed of 250MPH and this creates KNETIC ENERGY and it Bounces off the Back of Intake Valve " 180 times per sec " @ 10,800, this setsoff the HARMONICS and this is what influences "Volumetric Effeciency" or VE
Example , Take a piece of Steel, a Punch and hit it with a Hammer, it will send a Shockwave through the steel, viberating , Starting with a Long Harmnoic and getting shorter till it diapates all the Knetic Energy ??? Same thing with Intake Flow ??? Mass bouncing off Intake Valve ???
This Mass or VOLUMEN of Knetic Enregy can be Tuned , Shortening or Lenghtening of Total Port , Bellmouth to Valve Seat , thus Ramimg Air , Overfilling the Cylinder, ..." Natural SUPERCHARGING..... Increasing VE up to 130%. This is Controled by Intake Valve Closing Number .
Shane's stock 14R had a VE of 115.7%, ...@ ..10,000..it made 181.66HP, it takes 105.6 CFM @ 10* water. Where did 105.6cfm come from ??
It takes 4 equations to get VE....cfm...PAN.... VE......RPM.. cfm @ differtent RPM... hang in there, it takes a while
cfm = hp x .43......or... hp = cfm x .43...
CFM = HP / ,43 .....181.66 / .43 = 105.6CFM @ 115.7% VE
PAN; " Potential Air Flow Needed" All you have to know is @ what RPM you REV, and CID.
PAN = (RPM / 1000) x ( CID / 2) = CFM @ 10*....
.............................10 x 43.96..... = 439.6 / 4 = 109.9 cfm, this is Potential
, he changed to to <
His VE went up 120.94% @ 10,000, now he is flowing 109.9cfm @ the SAME 10,000
Now he is Making 189.88HP at SAME 10,000 ....109.9 cfm x .43 = 47.257 x 4= 189 HP
VE = [ HP / ( RPM x CID ) ] X 5600 X 100% = VE
........189.. /.. 879200 = .00021596 X 5600 = 120.94% X 100% = 120.94% VE ...so now you can Rev higher, but need to increase flow, a Header ??
10,700 needs PAN = 470.32cfm / 4 = 117.5cfm x .43 = 202.25 HP @ 120.94 VE @ 10.700....
So to get HP @ 10,000 for 202,25 HP ....
CFM @ a differtent RPM....CFM = RPM.. /...( 2000 / 1 cyl)
................CFM @ 10000 = ...10,000.. / ...21.98 =.454.57 cfm / 4 = 113.7 cfm x .43 = 48.89 hp cyl x 4 = 195.59HP @ the Same 10,000= VE
Plug in 195.59 HP into VE, ...VE = 124.78% @ 10,000
124.78%--120.94%= 3.84% now you can find out HP increase from 195.59HP x .0384 =
7.488 HP + 195,59Hp =........203 Hp @ 10700
It.s a long trip, guess we will see Monday,..... 203 HP @ 117 ft lbs......, messed up VE numbers on my 205Hp @ 119 ft lbs
"Think I rest now, i'am tired" Forest Gump
____________
"I have never met a man so Ignorant that I coun't Learn from him"..."Galileo"
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Wheelie
Needs a life
Old Man
Posts: 6902
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posted December 25, 2011 02:51 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Jim,
So, changing the length of the velocity stack to make them all even length, what exactly did I do?
going to guess that you raised the hp curve on 2 and the other 2 stayed the same. on the dyno it would all "even out" but inside the motor is not "balanced"
??
Y
Yes Scott, You can measure this with a stiff piece of Wire, bend it to match curve of Port and measure Center Line of PORT , Valve seat to the Bellmouth, they all need to be the same, BALANCED, So KHI didn't Ajust the port Lenghten,so KHI ajusted the Stacks., this also ajust total VOLUMEN.
You have to look at a PORT and TB as ONE unit, just a longer PORT ??
. A/F mix has a Mass or Weight and traveling @ Average speed of 250MPH and this creates KNETIC ENERGY and it Bounces off the Back of Intake Valve " 180 times per sec " @ 10,800, this setsoff the HARMONICS and this is what influences "Volumetric Effeciency" or VE
Example , Take a piece of Steel, a Punch and hit it with a Hammer, it will send a Shockwave through the steel, viberating , Starting with a Long Harmnoic and getting shorter till it diapates all the Knetic Energy ??? Same thing with Intake Flow ??? Mass bouncing off Intake Valve ???
This Mass or VOLUMEN of Knetic Enregy can be Tuned , Shortening or Lenghtening of Total Port , Bellmouth to Valve Seat , thus Ramimg Air , Overfilling the Cylinder, ..." Natural SUPERCHARGING..... Increasing VE up to 130%. This is Controled by Intake Valve Closing Number .
Shane's stock 14R had a VE of 115.7%, ...@ ..10,000..it made 181.66HP, it takes 105.6 CFM @ 10* water. Where did 105.6cfm come from ??
It takes 4 equations to get VE....cfm...PAN.... VE......RPM.. cfm @ differtent RPM... hang in there, it takes a while
cfm = hp x .43......or... hp = cfm x .43...
CFM = HP / ,43 .....181.66 / .43 = 105.6CFM @ 115.7% VE
PAN; " Potential Air Flow Needed" All you have to know is @ what RPM you REV, and CID.
PAN = (RPM / 1000) x ( CID / 2) = CFM @ 10*....
.............................10 x 43.96..... = 439.6 / 4 = 109.9 cfm, this is Potential
, he changed to to <
His VE went up 120.94% @ 10,000, now he is flowing 109.9cfm @ the SAME 10,000
Now he is Making 189.88HP at SAME 10,000 ....109.9 cfm x .43 = 47.257 x 4= 189 HP
VE = [ HP / ( RPM x CID ) ] X 5600 X 100% = VE
........189.. /.. 879200 = .00021596 X 5600 = 120.94% X 100% = 120.94% VE ...so now you can Rev higher, but need to increase flow, a Header ??
10,700 needs PAN = 470.32cfm / 4 = 117.5cfm x .43 = 202.25 HP @ 120.94 VE @ 10.700....
So to get HP @ 10,000 for 202,25 HP ....
CFM @ a differtent RPM....CFM = RPM.. /...( 2000 / 1 cyl)
................CFM @ 10000 = ...10,000.. / ...21.98 =.454.57 cfm / 4 = 113.7 cfm x .43 = 48.89 hp cyl x 4 = 195.59HP @ the Same 10,000= VE
Plug in 195.59 HP into VE, ...VE = 124.78% @ 10,000
124.78%--120.94%= 3.84% now you can find out HP increase from 195.59HP x .0384 =
7.488 HP + 195,59Hp =........203 Hp @ 10700
It.s a long trip, guess we will see Monday,..... 203 HP @ 117 ft lbs......, messed up VE numbers on my 205Hp @ 119 ft lbs
"Think I rest now, i'am tired" Forest Gump
SHAZZAM !! ok I'll leave the stacks alone lol
wee
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87gtNOS
Zone Head
Posts: 620
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posted December 25, 2011 04:26 PM
ok, some pro's in here....let me ask a hypothetical question.
If we revved the ZX14 to 11000rpm and held it there at 11000rpm, would it benefit from shorter stacks???
How much shorter does one shorten the stacks? Are we talking 5mm?
Thanks for your thoughts!!
____________
01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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Y2KZX12R
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CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted December 25, 2011 06:39 PM
quote:
Jim,
So, changing the length of the velocity stack to make them all even length, what exactly did I do?
If you shorten the intake stacks you shorten the time it takes the wave to travel from one end to the other which makes it match a higher single cylinder engine frequency. So it moves the rpm up where the timing is in the sweet spot.
Longer, lowers the rpm where the frequency matches the positive wave timing.
In short you are changing the rpms where the positive wave is beneficial.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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1badzx12r
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Posts: 8321
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posted December 25, 2011 07:09 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 26 Dec 2011 03:10
wait til you guys see stacks that are long and 90 degree on the end ..
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