kawa74

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posted December 21, 2011 12:21 PM
quote:
quote: Couple schools of thought here one may be the Bernoulli principle that gas accelerates through narrow point of flow allowing the same amont of cfm flow the old venturi effect I believe. The other, I don't have any bench flow experience but did a little reading and in regards to intake tract flow it seems that matching ports and such if the blend is convergent and not divergent it can help. So sometimes port matching can hurt numbers and HP. Not sure how the 47s fit into the picture but I'm thinking that if the head and tb's got matched by a professional that is the only way for some improvement.
Roy and i talked about this a while back , the more you bore the TBs the more tapper you lose , that tapper speeds up the flow .. Now if you started with a hole new TB and made it 47 with the same tapper as stock 44s have ( not size but tapper ) i think it would make more power .. That only works if the engine really needs more CFM .... Roy was going to test a set of ZX10R TBs on his bike and see what happens ... It might work better than boring the 44s ..
Your are right about the TAPER must be maintaned to keep velocity up,. The Bernoulli Principle is about speeding up a fluid, you have to think about like a HOUR GLASS, The Fluid, Gas, or Sand will speed up when it first comes out were it is Necked down, it has all the weight or Mass of the Fluid, Sand or Gas pushing , trying to get through the neck down !!
Kind of like Black Friday Christmas shoppers, you get 100 people pushing on 1 door , they are slow going through, they have to TAPER down, then when it opens, they all Rush in, Slowing, then they EXPEND back out, running faster than when coming in.
Kawasaki has plan, they want a Balance for street and track.
A 44 has a bore 0f 1.73 * in Diameter , it will taper down to 1.47 *in Di , that is 1,344 sq in ,
that will flow 117 cfm @ 10*
If you do the PAN ( Potential Air Flow Needed ), to make 202 HP , it is required to Flow 117.6 cfm ???? Remember the 44 flows 117 cfm, Balance, but you can IMPROVE
Next is the VE or (Volumeteric Effeciency ), rule of thumb is 130% is MAX.
EXample;
420 hp @ 7000 = 366 cu in Corvette =...... 92% VE
Stock Gen 1 = 169 hp @ 9700 , 82.5* = .................VE = 118%
850 hp@ 10,000 = 358 * NASCAR =.......129% VE
700 hp @ 20,000 = ...146* ..F1 =.................130% VE
1250 hp @ 10500= 500* ....=................130%VE
zx-10 - 61 cu in = 200 Hp @ 14,500 =.......122% VE
Gen 1 -zx14 , Brock's Diary, 169 hp @ 9700 = 118% VE, lots of room to improve. Header, Oil,, Raising RPM, Compression, Flow , Anything to make it More Effecient LESS Friction,
Gen 1, Brock's, 195 hp @ 10400 = 127% VE on PUMP,
MR-12, E-85, make MORE power with Chemistry, E-85 with Volume..... not VE
Brock's SS Gen 1, 208hp @ 11,000 = 128.35% VE, this may explane why he only got 2,3 hp when trying 47 TB's,......... 211 hp @ 11,000 =.......130% VE ??? This is MAX. out... VE
Example; Shane's 14r, He's bike Dynoed, ....................181 hp@ 10300..... VE = 112%
changed the oil, increasing......................... VE=117%.....= 189hp @ 10,300
A Header will get it to .......195 @ 10,300 = 120.% VE at he same RPM...., , now you can raise RPM, to 10,700 = 202 HP
RPM to 10,800 = 204 hp @ 10,800 =120.% VE, 204HP = NEEDS 119cfm, to raise VE you
need to flow more air, You try to get as close to 130% as possible, RPM's will increase HP at the same VE, NEED to raise VE at the same RPM . to make more POWER at the same RPM's .
To make 210 hp, @ 10,800 , VE has to be ...122.5%.... @ 10.800.. you need FLOW 121cfm ,,( back to PAN )
44's flow 117 cfm, it takes about 117cfm to make 204 hp @ 10,800, you have to raise Flow which make the VE go up, also raise RPM potential
47 TB = Diameter of 1.87* = 1.57* with a TAPER= 1.59 sq in that will flow
139 cfm in a perfect world =
A MAXED Ported 14r = 2 - 33mm Valves will flow around 138cfm. x .43 = 59.34 Hp x 4 = 237 HP Potential, A 14R has to REV to 12,556 RPM to reach 237 HP @ 130% VE,with stock Valve SIZE, 33's
What all means is the STOCK MOTOR , PUMP GAS, PIPED, AND TUNED 14R will be limited about 204 hp, throw in some Oxygen rich fuel, will boost it to about 212 HP.
Looks like 44's will be the governing factor , @ 120% VE , if you can free up friction , rolling , chain or increase VE, port work, compression, cams
Hello 47's
More Flow means HIGHER... VE..= more HP, more RPM .
14R needs 47's
47's need a taper 1.87* in down 85% to Center 1.57* in , and back out to port end 1,87* in
More air in, THE more air out, : and more air out, THE more in, all a BALANCE
,Law of pHYSIC'S.....Laws of Nature
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dubious

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posted December 21, 2011 01:30 PM
great thread Shane !
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entropy
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posted December 21, 2011 02:19 PM
great thead shane, but i ain't buying hp increase of oil, nope.
I do buy your dyno results, you are a truthful guy.
Test that oil + additive head to head against any hi performance oil (not kwak beakin oil) and i'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut that the results are 1-2hp if anything...
I love the systematic testing, Shane is known for that.
But let's not get carried away about oi, i've done plenty of tests (not incl Brock's)
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smokinZX14

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posted December 21, 2011 02:30 PM
quote: great thead shane, but i ain't buying hp increase of oil, nope.
I do buy your dyno results, you are a truthful guy.
Test that oil + additive head to head against any hi performance oil (not kwak beakin oil) and i'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut that the results are 1-2hp if anything...
I love the systematic testing, Shane is known for that.
But let's not get carried away about oi, i've done plenty of tests (not incl Brock's)
Give Shane and myself our do here .. Both of us said the same thing " Not sure it was just the oil or the petron that made the extra hp " We could have got the same gain using Kmart blue lite Syn oil , we just don't know .. What we do know is both are bikes picked up HP with the oil change .. And in the end that is all we cared about ...
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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smokinZX14

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posted December 21, 2011 02:32 PM
Edited By: smokinZX14 on 21 Dec 2011 23:40
.
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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Shane661

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posted December 21, 2011 02:34 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 21 Dec 2011 22:44
My main point on the 8 hp result was that the Kawasaki break-in oil was holding the bike back, just as Lee told me it was. I checked temps and humidity of the dyno stack between those pulls, barometric pressure, and even the engine temps were very close. The factory oil was not overfilled, either.
I had 6 measured pulls, and one initial pull that did not register on the dyno. 1st measureable pull on Kaw oil was 181. Change oil, 5 more pulls. 3 were 189.x hp, one without air filter was 186.5, and one when the bike was hot was 186.9.
We saw a +3 hp increase on Racheal's bike, back-to-back when compared to 10/40 Amsoil (as stated earlier). But I am probably done with my oil testing. I am just glad to have the Kaw stuff out of there.
Shane
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KZScott

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posted December 21, 2011 03:36 PM
getting a little off track again on the TBs, dont some of the big motor busas run 49s or larger?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
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Shane661

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posted December 21, 2011 05:12 PM
Here is the difference, stock air filter vs. no air filter:

You can see the change in the power curve, especially on top, and the the loss of power without the filter installed.
Shane
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oldkawboy

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posted December 21, 2011 05:17 PM
Shane,
Do you have any a/f readings?
Thanks,
Dan
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Shane661

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posted December 21, 2011 05:18 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 22 Dec 2011 01:19
quote: Shane,
Do you have any a/f readings?
Thanks,
Dan
No Dan, I did not bother. I think there are some other threads with a/f baselines.
When I install the new exhaust I will measure a/f.
Shane
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted December 21, 2011 06:41 PM
quote:
quote: great thead shane, but i ain't buying hp increase of oil, nope.
I do buy your dyno results, you are a truthful guy.
Test that oil + additive head to head against any hi performance oil (not kwak beakin oil) and i'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut that the results are 1-2hp if anything...
I love the systematic testing, Shane is known for that.
But let's not get carried away about oi, i've done plenty of tests (not incl Brock's)
Give Shane and myself our do here .. Both of us said the same thing " Not sure it was just the oil or the petron that made the extra hp " We could have got the same gain using Kmart blue lite Syn oil , we just don't know .. What we do know is both are bikes picked up HP with the oil change .. And in the end that is all we cared about ...
Lee,
I sure do give you and Shane yr due. You guys are consistent, organized, logical in the way you do yr testing.
I just think something else was in play associated with yr 8hp increase after the oil change.
If i could get 8hp, i'd literally pay $1000 for that oil change (n/j).
Hell, it would put my A motor a lil over 290hp!!!!
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smokinZX14

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posted December 21, 2011 06:53 PM
quote:
quote:
quote: great thead shane, but i ain't buying hp increase of oil, nope.
I do buy your dyno results, you are a truthful guy.
Test that oil + additive head to head against any hi performance oil (not kwak beakin oil) and i'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut that the results are 1-2hp if anything...
I love the systematic testing, Shane is known for that.
But let's not get carried away about oi, i've done plenty of tests (not incl Brock's)
Give Shane and myself our do here .. Both of us said the same thing " Not sure it was just the oil or the petron that made the extra hp " We could have got the same gain using Kmart blue lite Syn oil , we just don't know .. What we do know is both are bikes picked up HP with the oil change .. And in the end that is all we cared about ...
Lee,
I sure do give you and Shane yr due. You guys are consistent, organized, logical in the way you do yr testing.
I just think something else was in play associated with yr 8hp increase after the oil change.
If i could get 8hp, i'd literally pay $1000 for that oil change (n/j).
Hell, it would put my A motor a lil over 290hp!!!!
I know what it is .. Brocks pixie dust . I have some left over and i'll sell it to you for 1000 bucks ... ..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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cas15
Expert Class
Posts: 331
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posted December 21, 2011 07:12 PM
quote: Here is the difference, stock air filter vs. no air filter:

You can see the change in the power curve, especially on top, and the the loss of power without the filter installed.
Shane
shane is it safe to run the 14 with no air filter at the track
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Shane661

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posted December 22, 2011 04:09 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 22 Dec 2011 12:11
quote: shane is it safe to run the 14 with no air filter at the track
"Safe" is a relative term. I have made many, many dragstrip and LSR passes without an air filter installed, without issue.
Leakdown was also good, and it also gained hp on the dyno (this was with my '07 14).
Shane
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Shane661

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posted December 22, 2011 05:40 AM
One other note on the dyno work...
Yes, the bike will possibly throw a code and the check engine light will come on. But we didn't see this happen until the bike was driven for quite a ways on the dyno. Just a quick run up through the gears, then followed by the full pull, would not trigger any fault messages.
Shane
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Shane661

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posted December 23, 2011 10:38 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 23 Dec 2011 18:38
Good news...I have more dyno time scheduled for this Monday.
I will have the CT Meg on the bike then, and otherwise the same setup. We should get some good comparison results, and we will record A/F.
Shane
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WARBIRD

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posted December 23, 2011 11:39 AM
Cool...........
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kawa74

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posted December 23, 2011 01:53 PM
How close can I get ...HP will be ???.....----205.49---....@ ..10,700....Tq...119ft lbs @ 7500, this is how it figures
From a VE of ...115.7%.....10,000... @ stock HP of 181.66..@ .. 10,000
To a VE of ...120.96%@... 10,000... with <<0 wt Oil @ 189,88hp @ ..10.300.....
To a VE of ....128.82% @... 10,000... with CT Header =
...13.12%.. VE.. increase from stock
VE Must be figured at same RPM, 10,000
Hp .....---- 205.49----....10,700 RPM...Tq ...119 ft lbs @ 7500
IF you extend Rpm's by 13.12% x 10,000 .. you get to 11,300
At 11,300, ..HP will be.....214... @ 11,300.... Tq...124 ft lbs.. @ ...7560
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Wheelie

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posted December 23, 2011 02:02 PM
quote: How close can I get ...HP will be ???.....----205.49---....@ ..10,700....Tq...119ft lbs @ 7500, this is how it figures
From a VE of ...115.7%.....10,000... @ stock HP of 181.66..@ .. 10,000
To a VE of ...120.96%@... 10,000... with <<0 wt Oil @ 189,88hp @ ..10.300.....
To a VE of ....128.82% @... 10,000... with CT Header =
...13.12%.. VE.. increase from stock
VE Must be figured at same RPM, 10,000
Hp .....---- 205.49----....10,700 RPM...Tq ...119 ft lbs @ 7500
IF you extend Rpm's by 13.12% x 10,000 .. you get to 11,300
At 11,300, ..HP will be.....214... @ 11,300.... Tq...124 ft lbs.. @ ...7560
I bet you're right.
wee
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Shane661

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posted December 23, 2011 02:12 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 23 Dec 2011 22:20
We'll see what happens, but I am definitely not expecting 15 hp from just the pipe. Based on the good flowing stock pipes, I will be very happy with 1/2 of that gain, with no tuning.
Shane
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kawa74

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posted December 26, 2011 12:38 PM
I messed up , VE number should have been , ...124.78% @ 10,000.... that is 7.5 HP increase with header
Shane, the header will let you wind higher , to the limiter, you will be making 195.59 HP @ 10,000..... ++7.5 HP=
...................203 HP @ 10,700........117.5 ft lbs..... sorry
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"I have never met a man so Ignorant that I coun't Learn from him"..."Galileo"
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