3000psi and falling
Zone Head
Posts: 848
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posted October 23, 2011 06:36 PM
Cnc ss head
So I'm looking into more hp.
Im thinking of sending in my cylinder head to compition Cnc for there basic ss deal (no cams)
"This combination when degreeing the cams in will still run on pump gas for the street and make great power.
An example is the zx14 SS head that will make 200-207 HP tuned on a Dynojet 250i with a pipe, power commander, and a good race fuel. You need to degree in the cams and check piston to valve clearances."
This seems to good to be true, my 14 with a full muzzy m14, pcv, and adding this ss head package with stock cams (and a good local dynotuner) should be in the 190's hp on pump gas?
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08 ZX14, 2010 Persimmon Red bodywork.
Flies pulled, 16-42, BMC street, 8" extensions, drag shock, cut pan, Cycle Concepts Drag Pack and springs, muzzy m14 w/ oval can, lowered, Shinco usoft rear, pcv with autotune, leightweight Shori 18ah battery, throttle meister. 500lbs at bandimeres scales with half tank of juice.
  
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dakota9498
Pro
Posts: 1181
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posted October 23, 2011 06:40 PM
Not too good to be true. These bikes respond really well to a little porting and polishing, add to that the bump in compression from shaving the head. Plus everyone that deals with Jim (Y2KZX12 - Competition CNC) has nothing but good things to say. Go for it, I plan to as soon as I set aside a little money. Oh and even more power to be had if you send you throttle bodies in as well to have them bored.
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2008 ZX14
Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. ~Mark Twain
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JZX
Zone Head
Posts: 943
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posted October 23, 2011 06:44 PM
 Edited By: JZX on 24 Oct 2011 02:47
I made 190 in 110 degree heat. My ET's dropped a solid tenth with the same 60' and I picked up 4-5mph 8th mile, cooler temps included. Keep in mind you will pick up more hp by going with competition cnc becuase they do more to the head then I did. We only shaved it .040 and set the cams. I think you will pick up at least an extra 5 over me.
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06 ZX14 65"
Best 1/8 mile 5.68@126.4 on a 1.41 60'
Best 1/4 mile 8.87@152.7 on a 1.47 60'
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3000psi and falling
Zone Head
Posts: 848
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posted October 23, 2011 06:53 PM
Nice! It's a done deal. Looks like this mod will help keep the old 14 in the never-ending speed game a bit longer lol
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08 ZX14, 2010 Persimmon Red bodywork.
Flies pulled, 16-42, BMC street, 8" extensions, drag shock, cut pan, Cycle Concepts Drag Pack and springs, muzzy m14 w/ oval can, lowered, Shinco usoft rear, pcv with autotune, leightweight Shori 18ah battery, throttle meister. 500lbs at bandimeres scales with half tank of juice.
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3000psi and falling
Zone Head
Posts: 848
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posted October 23, 2011 07:03 PM
Can the head be yanked with the motor in the bike?
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08 ZX14, 2010 Persimmon Red bodywork.
Flies pulled, 16-42, BMC street, 8" extensions, drag shock, cut pan, Cycle Concepts Drag Pack and springs, muzzy m14 w/ oval can, lowered, Shinco usoft rear, pcv with autotune, leightweight Shori 18ah battery, throttle meister. 500lbs at bandimeres scales with half tank of juice.
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Compton
Zone Head
Posts: 969
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posted October 23, 2011 07:05 PM
Just understand the risks of doing this head. Any of the true "ss" heads leave very little room for error in rpm, miss shifts, tire spinning and so on.
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b.w.
zx14, little longer, little louder, little lower.
08 Busa, just a little longer and louder and lower than the 14
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3000psi and falling
Zone Head
Posts: 848
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posted October 23, 2011 07:12 PM
Please explain more, I spin and misshift often.
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08 ZX14, 2010 Persimmon Red bodywork.
Flies pulled, 16-42, BMC street, 8" extensions, drag shock, cut pan, Cycle Concepts Drag Pack and springs, muzzy m14 w/ oval can, lowered, Shinco usoft rear, pcv with autotune, leightweight Shori 18ah battery, throttle meister. 500lbs at bandimeres scales with half tank of juice.
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted October 23, 2011 07:58 PM
Edited By: smokinZX14 on 24 Oct 2011 03:58
3000psi and falling trust me one slip up and you will be eating valves .. Jim SS makes a ton of power but you have to be very very carefull with it .. A better bang for your buck would be to have Jim do you a stage one port job and mill the head 20 thou.. At 20 you can keep the factory 105 105 cam timing and not worry about smacking valves ... Have Jim also shim the valve springs with a 15 thou shim , this will add about 5 psi to the springs for a little safety .. You will still pick up 15 to 20 HP with a new tune ..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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JZX
Zone Head
Posts: 943
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posted October 23, 2011 08:00 PM
I had a valve hit the piston with mine last week. I thought it was the pvc at first, but after inspection I went lean. 2 plugs are fried-blown up. It went lean on MR12 in cooler air without a wideband or checking it on the dyno. My mistake. On pump gas 20 passes no problems. I busted the limiter at least 4 times when my air shifter malfunctioned and it still held together. During my shifts before I went thru the traps guys told me it litterally shot big flames during the pass and it looks pretty bad on my #4 piston.
Do exactly as Jim says and if you run MR12-map it with a wide band at the track and watch weather conditions. MRX01 is probably a safer fuel but pump gas is fine. You will still have to map it after your head is done.
Yes, you can pull the head without dropping the motor.
____________
06 ZX14 65"
Best 1/8 mile 5.68@126.4 on a 1.41 60'
Best 1/4 mile 8.87@152.7 on a 1.47 60'
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted October 23, 2011 08:03 PM
Edited By: smokinZX14 on 24 Oct 2011 04:04
Remember Jim SS is angle milled 60 40 That is 60 on the intake side and put the intake valve very very close to the piston .. Cam timing for PVC is a MUST !!! Go with the stage one and mill 20 you will be very happy ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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JZX
Zone Head
Posts: 943
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posted October 23, 2011 08:07 PM
BTW, it was my exhuast valve that broke-litterally it appears-I still have not found the valve stem..
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06 ZX14 65"
Best 1/8 mile 5.68@126.4 on a 1.41 60'
Best 1/4 mile 8.87@152.7 on a 1.47 60'
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3000psi and falling
Zone Head
Posts: 848
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posted October 23, 2011 08:10 PM
Thanks guys, there are no tracks in my area, so this will be a street and pump gas only bike.
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08 ZX14, 2010 Persimmon Red bodywork.
Flies pulled, 16-42, BMC street, 8" extensions, drag shock, cut pan, Cycle Concepts Drag Pack and springs, muzzy m14 w/ oval can, lowered, Shinco usoft rear, pcv with autotune, leightweight Shori 18ah battery, throttle meister. 500lbs at bandimeres scales with half tank of juice.
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JZX
Zone Head
Posts: 943
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posted October 23, 2011 08:19 PM
I'm probably doing another head, Jim will be the route I take-it really does make power. Here in TX being a level playing field, at both tracks I went to it just leaves stock motor 14's and busas pretty damn hard even if I get treed, and I really couldn't tell a big difference running solo as far as seat of the pants, except it made me have to stiffen my shock.
For the 1/4 mile I should have changed my gearing by dropping a tooth or two out back for the extra power. Even in the 60' for my weight I think it was just blowing thru 1st and made me have to come out way lower rpm off start. So keep that in mind.
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06 ZX14 65"
Best 1/8 mile 5.68@126.4 on a 1.41 60'
Best 1/4 mile 8.87@152.7 on a 1.47 60'
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codyc_13
Expert Class
Posts: 342
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posted October 23, 2011 08:23 PM
If its a street only bike, I definitely wouldn't do a SS head.
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06 zx14, 65", lowered, muzzy pipe, pcIII, air shifter, Litz revalve, Adams cut seat, OSR cut pan 87 pump gas.
8.97 at 149mph
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JZX
Zone Head
Posts: 943
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posted October 23, 2011 08:27 PM
quote:
If its a street only bike, I definitely wouldn't do a SS head.
Mine seemed just fine on the street, CR is 13.2 I believe. I rode my 1270 bb zx12 on the street for 3k miles and it was 13.5.
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06 ZX14 65"
Best 1/8 mile 5.68@126.4 on a 1.41 60'
Best 1/4 mile 8.87@152.7 on a 1.47 60'
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codyc_13
Expert Class
Posts: 342
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posted October 23, 2011 08:55 PM
I can see doing a street/strip bike with an ss head, but not a street only bike. You do the SS head to squeeze every little bit out of HP out of it. You will be a lot safer on a streetbike to do what Smokin said Port and Polish and shave a bit off. Seat of the pants won't be much different and it will be a lot safer.
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06 zx14, 65", lowered, muzzy pipe, pcIII, air shifter, Litz revalve, Adams cut seat, OSR cut pan 87 pump gas.
8.97 at 149mph
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Bently
Needs a life
2012 14r In Blue and no Mods!
Posts: 5428
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posted October 24, 2011 03:00 AM
quote:
3000psi and falling trust me one slip up and you will be eating valves .. Jim SS makes a ton of power but you have to be very very carefull with it .. A better bang for your buck would be to have Jim do you a stage one port job and mill the head 20 thou.. At 20 you can keep the factory 105 105 cam timing and not worry about smacking valves ... Have Jim also shim the valve springs with a 15 thou shim , this will add about 5 psi to the springs for a little safety .. You will still pick up 15 to 20 HP with a new tune ..
Smokin I know you have told me but what's the benifit of milling head vs running thinner head gasket
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted October 24, 2011 03:36 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 24 Oct 2011 11:38
Like Lee says, you could do the Stage 1 CNC port, or Jim could also do the SS setup with a little less compression (flat mill), and that would give you some more clearance. When the head is installed you should have the cams degreed, and that will allow for some adjustment on clearance as well. Keep it safe.
Give Jim a call and he will lay out the options. 
Shane
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oldkawboy
Needs a job
Posts: 2125
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posted October 24, 2011 04:49 AM
I had my head done years ago before Jim got his 14 head program started. Jim bored my throttle bodies and the combo is great for the street & track. Drivability is like a stocker but the overall power is increased a bunch.
I'd go with Jim in a heartbeat for a Head / TB combo, his work is second to none & his contributions to this site and racers will have me taking him any future business.
CNC Competition...........why say no when it's so easy to say yes! You won't be disappointed.
Dan
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted October 24, 2011 06:12 AM
quote:
quote:
3000psi and falling trust me one slip up and you will be eating valves .. Jim SS makes a ton of power but you have to be very very carefull with it .. A better bang for your buck would be to have Jim do you a stage one port job and mill the head 20 thou.. At 20 you can keep the factory 105 105 cam timing and not worry about smacking valves ... Have Jim also shim the valve springs with a 15 thou shim , this will add about 5 psi to the springs for a little safety .. You will still pick up 15 to 20 HP with a new tune ..
Smokin I know you have told me but what's the benifit of milling head vs running thinner head gasket
The piston to head clearance gets to close with the thin head gasket .. The piston can hit the head .. Milling doesn't change the factory clearance settings and is much safer..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted October 24, 2011 06:26 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 24 Oct 2011 14:27
quote:
quote:
3000psi and falling trust me one slip up and you will be eating valves .. Jim SS makes a ton of power but you have to be very very carefull with it .. A better bang for your buck would be to have Jim do you a stage one port job and mill the head 20 thou.. At 20 you can keep the factory 105 105 cam timing and not worry about smacking valves ... Have Jim also shim the valve springs with a 15 thou shim , this will add about 5 psi to the springs for a little safety .. You will still pick up 15 to 20 HP with a new tune ..
Smokin I know you have told me but what's the benifit of milling head vs running thinner head gasket
I had the same question a while back:
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=13&TID=50682
Some good info in that thread, covering the basics.
Shane
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BrucerZX14
Expert Class
Posts: 373
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posted October 24, 2011 10:05 AM
Edited By: BrucerZX14 on 24 Oct 2011 18:06
quote:
3000psi and falling trust me one slip up and you will be eating valves .. Jim SS makes a ton of power but you have to be very very carefull with it .. A better bang for your buck would be to have Jim do you a stage one port job and mill the head 20 thou.. At 20 you can keep the factory 105 105 cam timing and not worry about smacking valves ... Have Jim also shim the valve springs with a 15 thou shim , this will add about 5 psi to the springs for a little safety .. You will still pick up 15 to 20 HP with a new tune ..
You say have Jim do this. I'm not up on who Jim is. You've spaked my interest for some work on mine. Where doe sJim work to do port work for us? Thanks.
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted October 24, 2011 10:39 AM
http://www.competitioncnc.com
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted October 24, 2011 12:31 PM
Jim does great work, if theres something I feel I cant do properly ( like honing a block or lapping the deck) he gets my stuff. If I need a cnc port job, he gets my stuff. over sized valves and bronze seats, yup, Jim gets the work. Plus hes on here answering questions all the time
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted October 24, 2011 01:27 PM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 24 Oct 2011 21:39
Hey guys, I'll try and answer the questions you guys may have on our Super Sport head and the stage 1 and 2 cnc ported heads.
Early on we were doing stage 1, 2 and 3 heads. We found that the stage 1 head didn't get the gains expected unless you used the proper cams to match. Just like any of our other cnc ported heads. The problem was that unless you put a set of aftermarket pistons in the bike with deeper valve reliefs you couldn't run the proper cams for any of the cnc ported heads.
We knew the Super Sport head made over 195 hp on MR-9 so we decided to offer a version that wasn't AMA Super Sport legal for the guys who were not running in AMA SS but wanted a good street head at a lower cost. Basically we added in some valve bowl blending along with matching the rubber manifolds to the port nice. Then we added the 47mm throttle bodies and the end result was 210 hp on mr-12 fuel.
The SS head we now offer can have the bowl blending done as an option. But since the AMA Dragbike series is now gone everyone wants the bowl blending option and the throttle bodies.
Here's a few details about the Super Sport head.
Its angle milled 60/40 meaning that its milled .060" on the exhaust side and .040" on the intake side. This is due to the exhaust valve being deeper in the chamber and allowing the extra .020" to be milled off.
The compression ratio on a stock zx14 is 12 to 1 and the SS head brings it to 13.2 to 1.
You can still run it on pump gas as long as its 91 octane R+M/2 or higher.
MR-12 has a motor octane rating of 87 so that would be about 91 or 92 averaged with the research octane number like your pump fuels are rated.
So you can run our Super Sport head on mr-12 safely as long as you have the air fuel ratio at 12.6-12.8 to 1. You must remap for this air fuel ratio with pump gas or MR-12 fuel.
There are many, many guys running around burning pump gas with them and then run mr-12 on the weekends.
If your going to do this then when you get your pump fuel map made, drain the tank and put the mr12 in and have the dyno guy make a map for the mr-12 fuel as well. The second map only takes a few dyno pulls because you are just increasing the existing map across the board for the mr-12.
Also, you MUST degree the cams and check the piston to valve clearance. You can NOT run a thin head gasket. Use a stock head gasket.
You want a minimum of .050" on the intake and .060" on the exhaust. The exact cam timing numbers will vary from engine to engine but its usually around 108-109 lobe centerline on the intake and 107-108 on the exhaust.
Here's the catch on the SS head I always tell every customer before we do the SS head for them. Because we are milling the head so much, it will effect any future build. Meaning that any aftermarket parts that are based on a stock head will fit differently. So if you were to put 13.5 to 1 pistons in the bike at a later date then the actual static compression ratio will be 14.7 to 1. And also if you put in bigger cams then the piston to valve clearance will be diminished compared to a stock head.
So i ask the customer if they are planning to do any future mods like pistons and cams and if they are planning to then i will talk them out of the SS head and tell them to go for the stage 2 cnc ported head. This way they can add pistons and cams later and not have any issues. Or as I tell most guys, you can always sell the SS head next year and take the other guys stock head on trade and work with that for a big bore big cam motor.
The whole key to the zx14 engine is the pistons. Its ALWAYS better to put pistons in for added compression vs milling the head. But the cost is prohibitive for some guys because the cases have to be split to change pistons. Unlike a busa.
So there ya have it. The SS head is great bang for the buck but it has its drawbacks for later builds. But for many guys they are never going to go that deep into the engine so it really doesn't matter.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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