Shane661
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posted October 15, 2011 10:35 AM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 15 Oct 2011 19:02
- Loss of Power, ECU Related? -
We recently had an issue with Racheal’s 14 losing power. It was down a dramatic amount of hp. Here is the before and after:
Different, but very comparable dyno's...and the exact same setup (fuel, map, etc), with the exceptions noted below.
It appears to have been electronic in nature. The display was not showing any codes, however. I did a leakdown test, and the other basics, and everything looked normal.
So, I changed a few things to make sure that the ECU was not running a failsafe map for some reason. Looking at the chart before, it got really rich on top...and the power loss could have also been related to the ECU perhaps pulling timing.
First, I reinstalled the switch for the Kleen system. I knew that would likely clean up the mapping down low, as the ecu does see the resistance at the switch. However, it had never caused any high rpm issue on my 2007; but I wanted to play it safe. I had read a blurb a long time ago about it affecting low rpm mapping. In logging data I saw that the low end acceleration improved after I reinstalled it, as expected.
Next, I got to thinking about any other changes electronically. One change that I knew of was that my catalyst fuel tank has no sending unit. So the bike see's itself as low on fuel. Again, in checking around, nobody has had this cause an issue for them. But I figured there was an outside possibility that the ecu could be getting confused by seeing nothing at the switch. So, I hooked up a float assembly and strapped it up to simulate a full tank. There is definitely something odd about the way the ECU looks at this because it would take 5 minutes or so for it to read "FULL", even though the float was at the top of it's range.
More logging of data seemed to imply that the bike had gained some performance, but my limited ability to run any real high speeds was not making things easy.
I reset the speedo healer to zero it, putting it in essentially passthrough operation. Again, just to make sure the ECU was not getting any crazy data.
Finally, I switched back to a street map in the power commander. I saw an immediate loss of performance. This was a good sign, imo. It told me that I was able to change the mapping through the power commander, perhaps eliminating that as a possible cause.
The bottom line is that it seems somehow the mapping, or ECU mode had been altered. Unfortunately these ECU's are not very well documented. Everyone told me that it could be ECU related, but nobody could say for certain what might cause it to change internal maps.
I wish I could have tested all of these things individually, on the dyno or at the track. But I just didn't have the time or money to do so. I did the best I could, testing the bike on the street with a logger. My question is, does anyone have any idea of what make the bike behave like this, or has anyone run into this before? I'd hate to encounter this at the track again...
Shane
  
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dakota9498
Pro
Posts: 1181
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posted October 15, 2011 10:43 AM
That's crazy Shane, that is the first I have heard of this. After you messed around with it, did all the power come back, or are you still having issues?
____________
2008 ZX14
Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. ~Mark Twain
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Shane661
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Posts: 11494
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posted October 15, 2011 10:52 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 15 Oct 2011 18:56
quote:
That's crazy Shane, that is the first I have heard of this. After you messed around with it, did all the power come back, or are you still having issues?
The power is back now. I just don't know what the cause was, but it was not mechanical, it seems.
We took it up to Maine, and it would not go over 193 mph...even in close to 2 miles. It had went 199 in July, in 1.5 miles, in worse conditions. So we stopped in CT on the way back and put it on the dyno, which showed a big power loss, as expected. The dyno was comparable, I checked the .DRF's on a variety of setups on both dyno's.
I had a major gumming incident with MR9, but had cleaned all of that up. I ran some seafom through it at Maxton, and cleaned the plugs up a few times, but it didn't change things...it would only pull 187.99 there...same speed in 5th and 6th gear. The bike went 193.99, first time out, last year...with more in it at the time. The 187 mph is about what you expect from that power loss, and it was not hitting a limiter.
When we got it back home from Maxton I did a leakdown, which was good. Then I started fooling with the electronic aspects. After trying a variety of things, and seeing small changes here and there, I put it on the dyno and the power was back. I just wish I knew what caused the problem in the 1st place.
Shane
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Brock
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Posts: 560
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posted October 15, 2011 11:02 AM
Shane,
Do you run an external ground from your power commander to your battery?
Brock
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Shane661
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posted October 15, 2011 11:07 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 15 Oct 2011 19:30
quote:
Shane,
Do you run an external ground from your power commander to your battery?
Brock
I am grounded to the frame at the batttery box, where the battery lead grounds. (the bike has a speedcell with a quick-connect). I have the pc under the seat area.
The bike ran smooth, but on the dyno it showed a stumble at around 9k on all of the pulls. Obviously weak on power too. Do you think it could simply have been a grounding issue?? I've never had an issue like this before; any time I had a bad ground on other machines they would always pop or barely run. This bike would take different maps and such at the track, as normal. The dyno operator also was connected to the pc, and saw nothing unusual.
Shane
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epd345
Pro
Posts: 1494
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posted October 15, 2011 11:18 AM
Shane where did you dyno in CT? Was it reasonable and did the guy know what he was doing? You should have stopped in for a cold one on your way through. I am right off Rt 91.
____________
2012 ZX14, Ceramic Coated Brock's CT Meg, PCV, throttlemeister
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Shane661
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posted October 15, 2011 11:23 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 15 Oct 2011 19:39
quote:
Shane where did you dyno in CT? Was it reasonable and did the guy know what he was doing? You should have stopped in for a cold one on your way through. I am right off Rt 91.
Dyno Solutions, near Danbury:
http://dyno-solutions.com/
John was really good to work with, took the bike on short notice, and I will be taking another bike to him. Yes, he definitely knows what he is doing. I think he charged us $75 for the pulls, and took his time, and was patient while we swapped fuels, etc. 
If you are in the area, give him a call...and maybe next time I can stop by. 
Shane
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Oz Booster
Expert Class
Posts: 230
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posted October 15, 2011 12:47 PM
A/F ratios stay the same or similar, the mr9 gumming not effected the internal filter or pump performance
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Shane661
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posted October 15, 2011 12:54 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 15 Oct 2011 21:00
quote:
A/F ratios stay the same or similar, the mr9 gumming not effected the internal filter or pump performance
Pump was replaced with a low miles pump, and freshly cleaned injectors were installed right after the gumming incident, and prior to the racing/dyno pulls that showed power loss. TB's were also cleaned, and intake ports.
I did not change the pump or anything fuel-system related, prior to the power returning. That is another reason I think it was electronics related. I know it is probably something simple, but not knowing for sure means that it could bite us again at any time.
Shane
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Brock
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posted October 15, 2011 01:34 PM
Shane,
I was asking because of the different shapes of your curves. I have seen an erratic ground cause this, but a noticeable difference in exhaust tone is usually apparent also.
It's hard to tell what's going on because you don't list the run data: correction factor/bp etc.
Brock
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Shane661
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posted October 15, 2011 01:43 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 15 Oct 2011 21:52
quote:
It's hard to tell what's going on because you don't list the run data: correction factor/bp etc.
Brock
I'm at work and I don't have access to Winpep 7 and the .drf's right now. I know that the current hp of 184 sae is pretty close to where it should be. A bone stock Gen 2 Busa made 164 hp sae back-to-back.
I'll try to get some more info up later. I'll also take another look around on the bike. I really appreciate the help.
Shane
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Brock
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Posts: 560
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posted October 15, 2011 02:12 PM
Shane,
E-mail the .drf's to me if you like : bmail@brocksperformance.com
I'll try to help If I can.
Brock
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Shane661
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posted October 16, 2011 10:26 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 16 Oct 2011 20:36
Thanks Brock, I sent the files.
I have found something. I don't know what it is yet, though. I thought that the dyno was reading a/f wrong on the last set of pulls. It was showing 13.6 a/f on the race map, running pump 87. Well, today I logged it with a datalogger, and that 13.6 was correct!
That is pretty lean; imagine if it had MR9 in it. I found a strange issue...at approximately 7500 rpm the bike spikes lean. In order to eliminate a fuel delivery issue as the problem, I added numbers to the power commander. Here is how it looks after adding 12% more fuel from 6500 rpm up, on a WOT 3rd gear pull:
You can see it is pig rich until around 7500 rpm where it jumps up and leans out. The acceleration is much improved, as logged in rpm over time, with the added fuel.
So now I need to figure out what could make it jump up like this. Maybe the intake air pressure sensor on the TB's? Perhaps the MR9 syrup plugged some of the sensing hoses? Next I will hook up the tps to the logger, just to make sure tps is staying steady, before I pull the TB's out....unless anyone else has a suggestion otherwise?
Normally I would be pulling my hair out, but for some reason I am more intrigued by this than anything else...
Shane
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Shane661
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posted October 17, 2011 06:56 AM
Well, it's not Power Commander related; here is a pull with no Power Commander:
Same bump up to a lean condition, at the same rpm.
The investigation continues...
Shane
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dakota9498
Pro
Posts: 1181
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posted October 17, 2011 07:59 AM
Thanks for keeping us updated, I am really interested to see what this turns out to be. My guess would be a sensor somewhere isn't seeing or reporting what it is suppose to so it is throwing the ECU off. That would be the only reason I could see the ECU changing the base map.
____________
2008 ZX14
Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. ~Mark Twain
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted October 17, 2011 09:12 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 17 Oct 2011 19:53
quote:
Thanks for keeping us updated, I am really interested to see what this turns out to be. My guess would be a sensor somewhere isn't seeing or reporting what it is suppose to so it is throwing the ECU off. That would be the only reason I could see the ECU changing the base map.
I just got the throttle bodies off. Then I removed the pressure sensing tubes. When you blow through them you can hear some moisture in the lines. I am going to clean that up and replace the pressure sensor. I will be testing it out tomorrow, most likely.
This was the MR9 gumming problem that started all of this, about a month ago:
As if that wasn't bad enough, the intake ports were the same way:
No, they were not wet...that was the syrup!!! NIGHTMARE!!!
Everything, including the intake ports, had to be cleaned with Brake Kleen. When I just took the TB's off, there was some syrup on a couple of the blades again. I must have a couple of bad cans of MR9; I never saw anything like this on my bike and I put 50 gallons through it.
I am switching to MR12, as Brock and a couple others recently suggested. It is supposed to be more resistant to these issues.
As a side note, the Factory Pro velocity stacks might as well be made of hard plastic. They make removing the TB's a real PITA!
Shane
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01smokes
Needs a job
Posts: 2243
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posted October 17, 2011 09:40 PM
my booza is also down about 4-5 now after running u4 in my bike for a few weeks, ill have to check it out for any of this. i sure hope its not that bad
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Email, artvgl@yahoo.com
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