Romans
Expert Class
Posts: 294
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posted May 29, 2011 02:05 AM
Dyno Jet Ignition Module HP loss Question
I am curious to what you guys have seen with regards to Horse Power Gains or loses when using Dyno -Jets Ignition Module.
I have been running a PC3 with Dyno Jets IM for the last 3 years. I have used Ivan's and Brocks Ignition Maps with what I thought was great seat of the pants improvements. But I Have Not Had My Bike On The Dyno To Verify,,,,,, as I did not see the Need, Until Now.
I became alarmed when a fellow ZX-14 owner Had this to say
"The dynojet ignition module has proven on the dyno to actually LOSE HP. I didn't believe it until I saw it with my own eyes. A bike had the ignition module installed, and had the PC tuned, then REMOVED the I.M. and picked up about 6 hp across the board. My understanding, is the spark has to go through the ignition module before it goes to the coil. It loses strength and actually retards the timing instead of advancing it. Which makes sense, how can you advance the timing of a spark BEFORE you even know when the spark will occur??"
To say this guy knows his shit may be a bit of a understatement and I respect his opinion greatly, so I hope he chimes in.
I'm hoping you guys will shed some light on this for me. I can't seem to get my head around the fact Dyno-Jets IM has to advance spark it has not even seen yet, so how can it make 10 degree advances.
You would also think Law suits the works under false claims. Brock would have seen this on the Dyno along with many other tuners Here correct ?
Thanks in Advance lol. Cheers.
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2012 ZX-14 R Turbo, 2010 ZX-14 Turbo, 2007 ZX-14, 2009 ZX-6R, YZ 450F
  
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zxbob
Pro
Posts: 1692
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posted May 29, 2011 03:48 AM
I could'nt speak for the ignition module in the 14 . . . . but I can tell you we had put one
in a friends R-1 - it lasted for that days ride and he wanted it removed because the bike
felt slower.
Bob
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Good parts aint cheap and cheap parts aint good !
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Romans
Expert Class
Posts: 294
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posted May 29, 2011 06:29 AM
 Edited By: Romans on 29 May 2011 15:11
This is a big selling product for Dyno-Jet. If all it's doing is putting the ECU into "Safe Mode" How can Dyno - Jet Make all these wonder full claims and get away with it ?
When I first purchased it, the claims were something like 4 Hp down low and torque was improved. I Can't remember the exact #s now, but def starting to sound like some BS that took me 3 years to catch wind of.,,,,,,, My Bad. Soooo, if I take it out,,,, 6hpto be had,,,,Weee, Free Mod(ugh)
Fish On. boooo
There must be more guys that have tuned with IM in play ?
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2012 ZX-14 R Turbo, 2010 ZX-14 Turbo, 2007 ZX-14, 2009 ZX-6R, YZ 450F
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Ratfink
Novice Class
Posts: 93
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posted May 29, 2011 11:28 AM
makes sense to me actually but i would wanna see it for myself but to advance to timng i just use muzzys timing wheel
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
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posted May 29, 2011 12:23 PM
We picked up several hp making a proper timing map with our 1570 cc LSR bike. But that's compared to the ignition module hooked up and all zeros in the map. We added several degrees of timing everywhere and quite a bit up top with our timing map.
It may in fact retard the timing from stock with the module hooked up and all zeros map in it. If that's true then we would see a power difference between the module hooked up and all zeros map in it and it totally disconnected.
It would be interesting to know.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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Romans
Expert Class
Posts: 294
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posted May 29, 2011 04:54 PM
quote:
It would be interesting to know.
Yes, it sure would, 300 dollars worth of interesting. The tuners listed above run there timing maps like a down hill ski slope, which is not possible with the timing wheel which was why I chose it at the time. Which also begs the Question of how much Hp do you lose in the top end with the timing wheel running 4 degrees of advance all the time.
Must be more to it. Really glad you guys took a look at this. Cheers
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2012 ZX-14 R Turbo, 2010 ZX-14 Turbo, 2007 ZX-14, 2009 ZX-6R, YZ 450F
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davisag
Expert Class
Posts: 103
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posted May 30, 2011 02:04 AM
i am surprised people have missed the obvious here. i also have an ignition module on my zx 14 and gains will be made low down mid range without affecting the top end as some fixed mechical do , as the poster says how can it advance something it has not yet seen, is because he is assuming it is interrupting the signal from the ecu to the stick coils, when in fact it routes the signal from the pick up coils, and can advance or retard that where it wants before sending to the ecu. from what i have heard it stretches this signal , to fool the ecu , and is how you get the rev extend feature
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
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posted May 30, 2011 03:39 AM
You typically need more and more ignition advance as the rpm gets higher.
Example.... we have found that the engine likes 3-4 degrees everywhere then a few more degrees above 8000 and a few more than that above 10000 rpm etc.
All of this depends on the porting and the tumble you have added or taken away in the chamber and also the fuel being used. Every engine is going to respond differently depending on the cams and cam timing and the exhaust system used etc.
I'm not sure where the Internet rumors originally started about these sport bikes not liking the ignition timing advanced above 8000 rpms. I've never found that to be the case on any of our engines (air-oil suzukis/ xx honda/zx12/busa/zx11/zx14/gsxr1000/zx10 etc.) over the last 15 years.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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Romans
Expert Class
Posts: 294
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posted May 30, 2011 03:58 AM
quote:
is because he is assuming it is interrupting the signal from the ecu to the stick coils, when in fact it routes the signal from the pick up coils, and can advance or retard that where it wants before sending to the ecu.
Ahhh, got it.
Did you see your bike make more power on the Dyno, or Like me you are using a map made by others.
I know I'm not supposed to say to much about Maps made by others,,,,,, but,,,,,, I am currently running four degrees of advance at WOT and almost full advance down low .
What do you guys think it should be based on a bike with ALL the go fast bolt on's . Does it sound right ?
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2012 ZX-14 R Turbo, 2010 ZX-14 Turbo, 2007 ZX-14, 2009 ZX-6R, YZ 450F
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CajunBoyz
Zone Head
Posts: 702
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posted May 30, 2011 04:33 AM
quote:
You typically need more and more ignition advance as the rpm gets higher.
Example.... we have found that the engine likes 3-4 degrees everywhere then a few more degrees above 8000 and a few more than that above 10000 rpm etc.
All of this depends on the porting and the tumble you have added or taken away in the chamber and also the fuel being used. Every engine is going to respond differently depending on the cams and cam timing and the exhaust system used etc.
I'm not sure where the Internet rumors originally started about these sport bikes not liking the ignition timing advanced above 8000 rpms. I've never found that to be the case on any of our engines (air-oil suzukis/ xx honda/zx12/busa/zx11/zx14/gsxr1000/zx10 etc.) over the last 15 years.
As you ad advance & more advance, How much % are you having to up the fuel???
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"Cajun Boyz with Bad Ass Toys"
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted May 30, 2011 09:03 AM
Sharing maps can get you closer but don't ever assume its right unless to dyno the bike and know its right. Never share a timing map with anyone. timing maps are even more specific to the engine than a fuel map.
You do need to add some fuel after you add the timing to get the af ratio back where you want it.
If you change fuels you need to redo the timing map and re tweak the a/f ratio again.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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Audioboyz
Expert Class
Posts: 265
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posted May 30, 2011 11:53 AM
I have a stock 09 except for Brocks Alienhead his flys out track map flies out Muzzy timing wheel set at +5 degrees and Pipercross race filter.Am I running too much advance?Thanx
Craig
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2009 Monster ZX-14
Brocks Alienhead,PCV, flys out,LSL Riser kit,-1 front sprocket,43 Vortex rear sprocket,K&N Air Filter, Zero Gravity tall smoked screen,block off plates,175HP 104 torque
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Romans
Expert Class
Posts: 294
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posted May 30, 2011 04:08 PM
quote:
I have a stock 09 except for Brocks Alienhead his flys out track map flies out Muzzy timing wheel set at +5 degrees and Pipercross race filter.Am I running too much advance?Thanx
Craig
I always understood that if you went above 4 degrees with the timing wheel your ECU will see advance as out of safe range and retard you even further to protect the motor. "Safe mode" I believe this was dyno proven.
I too am curious to hear answers from all.
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2012 ZX-14 R Turbo, 2010 ZX-14 Turbo, 2007 ZX-14, 2009 ZX-6R, YZ 450F
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chiapet12r
Parking Attendant
Posts: 14
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posted May 30, 2011 04:13 PM
Dont worry about your timing, Just get your turbo installed already. lol
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Romans
Expert Class
Posts: 294
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posted May 30, 2011 04:58 PM
quote:
Dont worry about your timing, Just get your turbo installed already. lol
Good Point, I paid in full for a turbo Kit back in April 19,,,,, and I still Don't have it,,,,,, PISSED.
Off Topic, my bad.
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2012 ZX-14 R Turbo, 2010 ZX-14 Turbo, 2007 ZX-14, 2009 ZX-6R, YZ 450F
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Slowninja
Expert Class
Slow-ride
Posts: 189
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posted May 31, 2011 06:03 PM
Hey all.
I am the original poster of this statement. Here's why:
Walter Sprout (some of you may know him) was here in Oklahoma a few months back. He had a gsxr1000 on the dyno that had an ignition module installed. He told the guy upfront "you'll make more power if you take that off".
Regardless, he tuned the bike with the IM on. I dont remember the numbers exactly.
Took the ignition module off, with the bike on the dyno. made another pull. 6hp, across the board.
Walter is a world renowned tuner. Personally, I believe it. I saw it in person.
If you don't believe it (i don't blame you), please schedule a dyno session. Most dyno centers are pretty cheap if you aren't tuning. Dyno the bike, remove the I.M., and dyno it again. Just one volunteer will answer this as fact or fiction. I would like to see another result.
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06 zx14
SWB
9.24 @ 148
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Romans
Expert Class
Posts: 294
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posted June 01, 2011 04:03 AM
quote:
Dyno the bike, remove the I.M., and dyno it again. Just one volunteer will answer this as fact or fiction. I would like to see another result.
Thanks for chiming in Slow. Cheers.
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2012 ZX-14 R Turbo, 2010 ZX-14 Turbo, 2007 ZX-14, 2009 ZX-6R, YZ 450F
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted June 01, 2011 04:18 AM
my ZX12 gained 6-8hp by advancing timing 8-10 with DJ Ign module.
Back to back testing, several times.
1427, 16:1 CR, VP C-44, 235-240hp.
Mark Salvisberg warned me about the ign module, thus the extensive testing.
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This moderator uses moderation in moderation
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
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posted June 01, 2011 06:42 AM
quote:
I have a stock 09 except for Brocks Alienhead his flys out track map flies out Muzzy timing wheel set at +5 degrees and Pipercross race filter.Am I running too much advance?Thanx
Craig
You dont know what that engine will want without dyno testing.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted June 01, 2011 06:44 AM
quote:
I always understood that if you went above 4 degrees with the timing wheel your ECU will see advance as out of safe range and retard you even further to protect the motor. "Safe mode" I believe this was dyno proven.
I've never seen that on a kawi or suzuki.... ?? maybe some bikes that i haven't tested??
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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Swiftkart
Expert Class
Posts: 349
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posted June 01, 2011 09:16 AM
quote:
Hey all.
I am the original poster of this statement. Here's why:
Walter Sprout (some of you may know him) was here in Oklahoma a few months back. He had a gsxr1000 on the dyno that had an ignition module installed. He told the guy upfront "you'll make more power if you take that off".
Regardless, he tuned the bike with the IM on. I dont remember the numbers exactly.
Took the ignition module off, with the bike on the dyno. made another pull. 6hp, across the board.
Walter is a world renowned tuner. Personally, I believe it. I saw it in person.
If you don't believe it (i don't blame you), please schedule a dyno session. Most dyno centers are pretty cheap if you aren't tuning. Dyno the bike, remove the I.M., and dyno it again. Just one volunteer will answer this as fact or fiction. I would like to see another result.
I have the ignition module and thought the same thing, I had my tuner add timing and it loss hp on the Dyno so we left it at 0, then I spoke with competition cnc and he told me you had to add fuel when adding timing so I went back to the Dyno and had him add fuel with the timing and I gained 3 to 4hp up top vs 0 timing, this was on a 06 zx14, adding fuel along with the timing advance does make hp.
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2006 ZX14, Brock CT-Meg, PC, ignition module, E85, 214 lbs suited, 8.96@152.32 1.46 60'
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