matgriff
Parking Attendant
Posts: 9
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posted May 22, 2011 10:21 PM
You cannot swap the standard "narrow band" 02 sensor for the autotune "wide band" sensor. The narrowband sensor has an output of 0-1v that's just a switch at the point of rich/lean AFR, ie it can only indicate to the ECU that the AFR is rich or lean, the ECU then alters the injector duration to toggle around this ideal (or not so ideal) set-point of 14.7:1 when running in closed loop mode.
The wide band sensor for the auto tune provides an accurate analog signal that's proportional to the actual AFR, thereby giving the auto-tune a good quality feedback signal that alows it to control to a given set point, not just toggle around 14.7:1
The problem is that even if you use the auto-tune the std ECU and narrow band sensor will override it in closed loop area. The 02 optimizer is effectively adds or subtracts a DC offset to the standard narrow band sensor, so that the ECU thinks the AFR is a little bit lean when it's 14.7:1 and it controls to 13.6:1, this is set by dynojet and will stop the surging and lean running of the std set-up.
It will still be closed loop mode control, but with a new set-point. The only way to stop it going into closed loop mode (and therefore run with a fixed map) is to either manually re-flash the ECU software with a modified version, or remove the 02 sensor, connection, but this will give a FI error on the dashboard. In this case it defaults to the 4th gear map, but I think that also it makes some default setting to the ignition timing, as I've tried this and the bike seems down on power...
too bloody clever these modern FI systems :-)
  
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ZZR-Treiber
Parking Attendant
Posts: 17
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posted May 23, 2011 02:56 AM
You are right, but what I´ll do is build a wideband to narrowband converter. It will read the
actual afr from the autotune and give a signal from 0.1 to 0.9 VDC to the ECU. Therefor I have to
extract the afr from the can bus datastream. The output to the ECU will be realised by two
FET transistors switching different resistors to ground. The microcontroller is AT90CAN128
with 16MHZ clock. Id would be helpful for me to know the measure range of the autotune.
I think it´s afr 10 to 16, but I´m not shure.
Greets
Holger
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matgriff
Parking Attendant
Posts: 9
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posted May 23, 2011 04:04 AM
OK but that seems a very complicated way to solve a relatively easy problem... and in any case I can't see why you need the CAN bus data. Just :
Take a wide band sensor, fitted to the standard header.
Look at it's output voltage at 13.6: AFR, build a simple comparator circuit using two LM393's or similar so that their output's toggle at the voltage level from the wide band sensor at 13.6: Then interface this to the standard ECU via the narrow band sensor connector....
Alternatively just wait a couple of weeks for dynojet's optimizer, which will do the same job. 13:1 AFR is good and will solve all the problems.
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ZZR-Treiber
Parking Attendant
Posts: 17
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posted May 23, 2011 05:49 AM
Hi, the optimizer will not work, because I cannot use the oem sensor - I removed the connecting sleeve..
The BOSCH LSU4 outputs no signal equal the afr. A chip CJ125 from Bosch is necessary to calculate
the voltage of the NERNST-CELL and the current of the o2-cell to the actual afr.
I think the easiest way ist to read the afr from the autotune.
Greets
Holger
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matgriff
Parking Attendant
Posts: 9
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posted May 23, 2011 10:17 PM
Yes you would need the interface circuitry that goes with the wide band sensor. The sensor is a current source type device, but you would image that there must be some standard circuit that provides the necessary power supply etc and gives a 0-1v or 0-10v output ?
I have no Idea how to get the info from the CAN bus
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ZZR-Treiber
Parking Attendant
Posts: 17
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posted May 24, 2011 06:57 AM
After reading the CAN bus information, the controller compares the afr with a fixed afr of e.g. 13,2 and switches
between two outputs (rich or lean).
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matgriff
Parking Attendant
Posts: 9
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posted May 24, 2011 10:00 AM
I'm not sure that's how it works.... the narrow band sensor cannot determine the AFR.. only indicate rich or lean either side of stoichometric of 14.7:1 so the input to the ECU from the CAN bus will not be a bit stream or "data word" representing AFR, just a signal to the ECU for either more or less injector duration depending on the status of the 02 sensor.... if you're familar with control systems... it's a basic "bang bang" controller, ie just more or less fuel oscillating around the set point of 14.7:1... Note that the set point cannot be changed in the ECU...the 02 sensor charactersistics determine this.
Eg if the 02 sensor reads lean the ECU gives more fuel until the 02 sensor reads rich,then it gives less this cycle continues over and over.
If you look at the characteristic of the narrow band sensor, you'll see what I mean.
Mat
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ZZR-Treiber
Parking Attendant
Posts: 17
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posted May 24, 2011 07:23 PM
That´s what I will do ...
***************************
After reading the CAN bus information, the controller compares the afr with a fixed afr of e.g. 13,2 and switches
between two outputs (rich or lean).
***************************
The output from the controller has 2 states and switches with FETs and resistors
the ECU between rich and lean.
The code for reading the PC5 CAN bus works !!!
It was difficult to reverse engineer the datasteam but now I get the same AFR
the Dynojet-software shows !!!
Now I´ll design a PCB and I hope to get it work the next days.
Holger
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matgriff
Parking Attendant
Posts: 9
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posted May 24, 2011 10:49 PM
ahhhhh OK my mistake :-) I thought you were talking about the OEM sensor, ECU & CAN bus, not the dynojet autotune & PC5 bus..........sorry
Yes I agree the autotune with it's wide band sensor will have a data word on the CAN bus that represents the real AFR
Sorry for the missunderstanding
Mat
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ZZR-Treiber
Parking Attendant
Posts: 17
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posted May 29, 2011 09:18 AM
IT´S DONE !!!
My self made module works. It reads the afr from the PC5/Autotune via can-bus, converts it
into a switching signal (like the oem o2 sensor) around a selectable afr, and is given back
to the ECU by the oem connector for the oem o2 sensor.
I just come back from a 100Km ride and, unbelievable, it works !!!
Cheers
Holger
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Mr Road Rage
Parking Attendant
Posts: 1
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posted June 24, 2011 11:41 AM
I've given up with the PCV and the problems that it and the eliminator caused. Ok, so there is a bit more power with the PCV but I found that the bike used more fuel and I suffered the same problems with the eliminator that others have had. I have now returned the bike to standard with the exception of Yoshi cans and it is running well. There is more than enough power (I readilly admit I became a power junkie) and the 2008 model that I have has enough torque at low revs in 4th 5th and 6th to make overtakes easy anyway.
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ZZR-Treiber
Parking Attendant
Posts: 17
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posted June 24, 2011 09:34 PM
My engine doesn´t use more fuel ?! Since the Autotune works in comination with my Lambda-module, the power and torque increased and the engine runs much smoother.
I had the problem with the eliminator too, but that was my prod to solve the problem :-)
and after ~ 2000Km and several dyno-runs I can say it works very well.
Cheers
Holger
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Ptr
Parking Attendant
Posts: 3
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posted July 19, 2011 12:35 AM
Nice to see someone else working on decoding DJ protocols.
I am using JD WideBand2 unit instead of Autotune. Both units are very similar. Message id for WB2 data output on CAN bus is d00182b - looks it is the same as used by Autotune.
Major difference between WB2 and AT units is additional data inputs/outputs including simulated narrowband output. According to LCD-200 manual it is possible to configure WB2 narrowband simulation outputs switching point. So, the unit should be able to do the same job as ZZR-Treiber's setup but without additional electronic circuit.
As far I can see, the only way how it can be configured is via LCD unit. 
It would be great if someone who has both LCD and WB2 unit could record CAN bus session while this configuration is done.
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ZZR-Treiber
Parking Attendant
Posts: 17
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posted July 19, 2011 02:23 AM
I hope I´m right, I think the WB2 output (you called it NB simulation) is a 5VDC output
that can be toggled around a AFR setpoint. But you cannot directly connect this kind
of output to the narrowband input of your ECU. To use this output you have to
use additional hardware.
Another point is the price. My circuit is MUCH cheaper than a WB2 and LCD :-)
Cheers
Holger
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Ptr
Parking Attendant
Posts: 3
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posted July 19, 2011 03:56 AM
quote:
I hope I´m right, I think the WB2 output (you called it NB simulation) is a 5VDC output
that can be toggled around a AFR setpoint. But you cannot directly connect this kind
of output to the narrowband input of your ECU. To use this output you have to
use additional hardware.
Not exactly. WB2 has linerar 0-5V output for datalogers etc. but I was not about this.
Unit also has another output called "Simulated Narrow Band Output". Any device designed to accept narrowband sensor via this output will see WB2 as a normal NB O2 sensor. No additional hardware required. NB sensor always switches around lambda=1 but for wb2 this point can be shifted.
DJ list price is $259.99 for autotune and $249.00 for wb2 base unit (w/o lcd)
For the same money wb2 does all that autotune can do and has additional in/outs. Buying LCD just for one time configuration task is a bit of overkill, so I'm looking for other ways.
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Insaneroller
Parking Attendant
Posts: 20
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posted July 19, 2011 11:16 AM
 Edited By: Insaneroller on 19 Jul 2011 19:30
Man, with all this... I think I'm gonna skip buying the pc5+autotune for my 2007, ZZR 1400. If either of these issues happens, I'm not gonna be able to do anything here in Bombay. Better i stick to my pc3. Hoping for a simple plug in solution soon.
I only want to get the pc5+autotune as I can't find any map for my setup other than the standard map on the Dynojet site. So can't take such a big chance just to get the proper setting for my cannons etc etc...
____________
2007, ZZR1400, flies out, Bonneville pro, BMC, Tsukigi Cannon GP full system, pc3, Muzzy velocity stacks, Muzzy drag clutch kit etc etc etc
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ZZR-Treiber
Parking Attendant
Posts: 17
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posted July 20, 2011 02:47 AM
@PTR: You are right, I found it in the description.
But the output has no electric specification. I GUESS! it will sink the nb voltage to ground.
That´s a way you can go, but some ECUs will not accept it.
I think that´s the reason why DJ does not specify the output.
I know 3 different types used in ECUs to supply a narrow band sensor and all 3 ways
are incompatible.
Cheers
Holger
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Ptr
Parking Attendant
Posts: 3
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posted July 21, 2011 08:58 PM
You are right. Common ground is something I did not think about. Until now all ECUs I have had accepted this type of connection but for some types of ECUs it could be a problem .
But I am still interested in any logs of DJ CAN bus communications. If anybody have logged something and is ready to share data, please let me know.
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jesmael
Parking Attendant
Posts: 2
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posted October 08, 2011 12:09 PM
I have riden now 2 years without o2 sensors and there have been that FI error message. Now I bought the dynojet optimizer and when I instal it to the bike, do I have to do something to fuel mappings again?
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cruiserman_83
Expert Class
Posts: 144
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posted December 18, 2011 08:34 PM
Hi guys, got a quick question. Can anyone tell me the Manufactuer of the OEM Oxygen Sansor? Trying to find out of it is a Bosch, or NTK or Nippon Denso....
I need to replace the Oxygen sensor on my 2012 ZX14R (when I get it) with one that is the same specs, but has a 18mm thread to suit the Aftermarket exhaust system.
Thanks in advance for your help.
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LOCK 909
Novice Class
Posts: 90
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posted December 19, 2011 09:18 AM
How about changing the signal for the secondary flie's, add comparitors, and signal amp.to provide switchable opening rate's or switchable open , realy controled PC3 ??
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2deviate
Parking Attendant
Posts: 2
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posted March 31, 2012 07:05 AM
ZZR1400 2009 Model re PCV & Autotune
Apologies if this has been answered but I recently installed a PCV to my ZZR1400 along with R77 Yoshimura cans. I was wondering if buying an Autotune was wise since it seems from the posts below that it does not work properly on models after 2008.
Is it simply not worth buying one and having the maps installyed via a dynatune centre?
Has the O2 sensor, lambda and ECU overrides been fixed?
How difficult is it to install the autotune and what additional items do I need e.g. dual sensor?
Regards
Craig
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2deviate
Parking Attendant
Posts: 2
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posted March 31, 2012 07:17 AM
With all the above problems re installing autotune 2008 models upwards - is it worth it? I mean I have recently bought and installed a PCV and was considering Autune - but it sounds like a lot of hassle.
Are the problems with the O2 Optimizer and OEM resolved?
I have a ZZR1400 2009 model - does anyone know if I need to weld the Autotune bung / or does the bike have one already installed.
Lastly, what are the advantages of buying the autotune vs having a one off map viz. dynatune centre?
I am a newbie to this so i would appreciate any response..
Regards
Craig
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ZZR-Treiber
Parking Attendant
Posts: 17
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posted March 31, 2012 10:36 PM
Hi Craig, the "problems" are not resolved.
The problem is called "closed loop" , the ECU expects switching signals from the
oem lambda probe, and the Dynojet plug (resistor) will not work.
You can use a PCV map without Autotune and with the oem probe installed, it will work, but
in 4th to 6th gear < 6000 RPM and < 60% throttle the ECU will override your map to AFR 14.7.
There are 2 solutions for the problem:
1) using Dynojet Autotune there ist a additional module available that reads the AFR from
the Autotune and produces an signal you must connect to the ECU instead of the probe.
That allows you to run the same AFR you write in your Autotune map.
2) The same module will be available in about 4 weeks as a "stand alone" solution
without the need of a Dyno Autotune. It has its own wideband probe.
Both modules are available here:
http://tuningcompany.de/
Its a german site !
About o2 Optimizer:
I made different Dyno runs with ZX 10 and o2-optimizer, it didn´t work satisfactory.
There was no stable AFR !
Much better is the above solution.
You have to weld the Autotune bung !
Kind regards from Germany
ZZR-Treiber
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