chrisdhall
Novice Class
Posts: 64
|
posted May 10, 2011 01:06 PM
 Edited By: chrisdhall on 10 May 2011 21:09
PCV/Autotune and European models
This post will be of interest to European owners of the ZZR1400 (ZX14) from 2008 onwards who have to suffer having a lambda sensor in the exhaust and want to fit a Power Commander V (and Autotune). The ECU reads the sensor (rich or lean) in 4th, 5th and 6th gear, up to 60% throttle and up to 6000rpm, when inside these ranges it pulls the Air/Fuel ratio to 14.5:1. (Great for mpg and emissions, not so good for ft-lbs)
Some background: I have a 2009 UK model ZZR1400 which I fitted the Yoshi R77 cans to the OEM headers. The flies are out and a PCV and Autotune have been fitted. To fit the PCV/Autotune requires the OEM lambda sensor to be removed and Dynojet's sensor to be fitted into the exhaust, plus a lambda sensor eliminator was supplied to prevent a FI error being displayed on the dash.
As reported in my other posts, the lambda sensor eliminator Dynojet originally supplied (a simple resistor I think) caused the ECU to shut the engine down intermittently (not good!). The only solution up until now was not to use the Dynojet eliminator and put up with the FI error, which is a pain in neck!
Dynojet UK called me to say that they had produced a "O2 optimizer" which should solve the problem. As I'm using Autotune, my bike now required both the Autotune AND the OEM sensors to be fitted in the exhaust (a bit more welding needed!) plus a small box of electronic trickery.
The bike was put on the dyno and with the OEM sensor in place (no O2 optimiser connected yet), 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear, spot on AFR 13.6:1 as set by the Autotune, as soon as it snicks into 4th gear the AFR is pulled to 14.5:1. If the PCV is changed to add more fuel the ECU corrects it back to 14.5:1.
Connecting up the O2 Optimizer and selecting 4th gear again and instead of AFR 14.5:1, it holds at 13.6:1 and no FI error!!
On the road the bike feels much more responsive to the throttle, which makes me think that running it with the OEM sensor disconnected and therefore an FI error, had the ECU running in a "lower performance" mode. this is only a guess.
Dynojet O2 optimiser part number is 76125017.
Chris
  
|
GREYHOUNDMOSES
Expert Class
Posts: 324
|
posted May 10, 2011 01:34 PM
Thanks for the update Chris.
I read your first thread with interest as I had the same problem with my 2009 last September after I fitted a full system (among other mods) and origional sensor eliminator. This led to my local dealer having my bike for NINE WEEKS investigating the misfire, and they still didn't find the problem despite being an authorised Dynojet franchise !!!
The problem was finally found after a chance phone call to Martin Winstanley at Dynojet U.K.
Martin, it turns out, is a real stand up guy.
After fitting the origional sensor in my new system the bike was fine but I had no faith in the maps I'd had done at the dealer (do you blame me?).
Martin asked me to email him the maps and having checked them assured me they were fine and further
offered me a free dyno check on the maps at Dynojets HQ!
He also promised to send me an updated eliminator once they became available - FOC !!!
Now that you have yours, I'll drop him an email and see what happens.
|
1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
|
posted May 10, 2011 01:49 PM
more dynojunk and no testing before hitting market
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
|
GREYHOUNDMOSES
Expert Class
Posts: 324
|
posted May 10, 2011 01:59 PM
quote:
more dynojunk and no testing before hitting market
I take your point but this one is down to Kawasaki.
The Dynojet part worked fine on 06-07 bikes till Kawasaki changed the bike spec. to meet new European
emmission regs.
My Dynojet tuner dropped the ball by not being aware of the change and not asking Dynojet U.K. if there was a problem with the sensor.
|
1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
|
posted May 10, 2011 03:31 PM
man you don't want me to even start rattling off the problems with dynojunk on differant NEW model bikes .. its dynojunk fault and their greed and no testing or lack of.. maybe some things need a year or 2 of testing on a new model before hitting market ..instead of a couple months or weeks after a new model hits the market.. and then letting the owners find the faults of their products ..
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
|
chrisdhall
Novice Class
Posts: 64
|
posted May 10, 2011 10:31 PM
quote:
Thanks for the update Chris.
I read your first thread with interest as I had the same problem with my 2009 last September after I fitted a full system (among other mods) and origional sensor eliminator. This led to my local dealer having my bike for NINE WEEKS investigating the misfire, and they still didn't find the problem despite being an authorised Dynojet franchise !!!
The problem was finally found after a chance phone call to Martin Winstanley at Dynojet U.K.
Martin, it turns out, is a real stand up guy.
After fitting the origional sensor in my new system the bike was fine but I had no faith in the maps I'd had done at the dealer (do you blame me?).
Martin asked me to email him the maps and having checked them assured me they were fine and further
offered me a free dyno check on the maps at Dynojets HQ!
He also promised to send me an updated eliminator once they became available - FOC !!!
Now that you have yours, I'll drop him an email and see what happens.
Martin did all the work on my bike - he's a top bloke.
"Dynojunk" - hmmmm. a bit harsh I think. The problem of the misfire was intermittent, issues of this nature are always difficult to isolate. My bike ran fine for a month or so before the misfire occured. Turn off the engine, then restart it and it was gone for another few weeks. Dynojet UK supplied a new PCV and Autotune units in case these were faulty. The new O2 optimizer, sensor fitting and dyno time was all done FOC. Some times problems only emerge when the product is out in the field. The support I've had from Dynojet has been first class, no complaints there. I assume the they get no assistance from Kawasaki on resolving these types of problem, I'm guessing they have to reverse engineer the ECU to work out what's going on and come up with a solution. I would agree that Dynojet should now do more field testing given this issue.
|
1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
|
posted May 11, 2011 04:24 AM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 11 May 2011 12:31
Put you an LCD screen on your PCV so you can log your A/F's and get back to me in about a month ..OR maybe they may have fix that issue by selling it to the early owners to test for them ..
quote:
Dynojet UK supplied a new PCV and Autotune units in case these were faulty
Here in America dynojunk Las Vegas says that can never happen a bad PC .They don't ever go bad thats their motto
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
|
wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
|
posted May 11, 2011 04:57 AM
why not buy a US ECU ? they dont have O2 sensors or the immobilizer stuff, but they should plug in without throwing any codes.
|
chrisdhall
Novice Class
Posts: 64
|
posted May 11, 2011 11:44 AM
quote:
why not buy a US ECU ? they dont have O2 sensors or the immobilizer stuff, but they should plug in without throwing any codes.
I did think of this as a possible solution, but the cost of importing even a second hand ECU was quite costly (Import duty, sales tax etc). Would the ECU work with European electronics? Can the security built into the keys be recoded and at what cost? Have to take a chance, Kawasaki wouldn't be much help Questions, questions! Too many question marks, so I'll leave that for someone else to test out
|
wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
|
posted May 11, 2011 02:30 PM
my best guess is that it wiil ... connectors and sensors are all the same ... only difference is that there are a few wires missing on the US harness.
I am assuming that the us ecu has the immobilizer feature and the O2 controller disabled .
maybe you can get someone to ship you a used ecu to test ... I heard that the bike builders were putting in 06-07 ECUs, so there may be some '08 & up ECUs around cheap.
Roy
|
GREYHOUNDMOSES
Expert Class
Posts: 324
|
posted May 11, 2011 03:13 PM
Roy, I'm sure you're right, a U.S. ecu could be used, but on a street bike there could be issues.
The immobiliser and abs people may consider they could do without, but other things like lighting regs could cause problems come annual testing times. And who knows what else is lurking in that black box!
I don't know if you've missed that both me and Chris have fixed our problem. Chris has the new "optimiser" which seems to work and I've had a bung welded into my new system to take the oem sensor. For the time
being my ecu overides my custom map in certain areas, but that's no big issue (although I didn't know it was setting a14.5 AFR! That sounds TOO "clean" for my liking) . FOC or not, I'll be getting the optimiser for my bike for much less than even a used ecu. From a quick google they appear to be 33 Euros (about $45)
Be warned, all manufacturers are going this route of making it harder for us to "tamper" with their products.
They will get to you at some point!!!
|
1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
|
posted May 11, 2011 03:30 PM
quote:
Be warned, all manufacturers are going this route of making it harder for us to "tamper" with their products.
!!!
well if it goes rich mode ..i've got a fix for that ..more air ..
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
|
tauchpiranha
Parking Attendant
Posts: 5
|
posted May 16, 2011 09:33 AM
PCV/Autotune and European models
Hallo
First I would like to thank you for all the Information so far, but I still have trouble with my PC5.
My Bike is a 08 ZX14 European Model with OEM O2 Sensor.
Flies removed, PC5, Autotune and O2 Eliminator 76423021
installed. OEM O2Sensor replaced with Autotune Sensor.
Newest Soft- and Firmware is on Laptop and PC5. Zero Map on PC5.
Bike runs fine and Autotune works well in Gear 1-3, in Gear 4-6 The bike runs very rich, so rich that the Sparkplugs got wet and the motor dies.
About the same when I switch back to the OEM sensor. In Gear 1-3 Autotune makes changes between 0-12, in Gear 4-6 up to 60 and more if I accept the trims.
Everything back to stock the bike runs OK.
Any Ideas what to do?
Greets Bernd
|
GREYHOUNDMOSES
Expert Class
Posts: 324
|
posted May 16, 2011 01:21 PM
Hi Bernt. Welcome to the forum.
The o2 eliminator is the problem. It doesn't work on 08 onwards bikes.
To run the autotune you need to run the O2 Optimiser inline with the oem sensor AND the autotune
sensor.
I don't know about the availabilty of the optimiser in Germany. The only Google results I got for the part number Chris gave, where from Italy.
I spoke to Martin at Dynojet UK today and they expect to receive their first batch in about a week.
It appears Chris got a pre-production / prototype unit.
|
tauchpiranha
Parking Attendant
Posts: 5
|
posted May 17, 2011 12:38 AM
Hi GREYHOUNDMOSES
If I unplug the PCV and leave the O2 eliminator in place the Bike runs well, why is it not running with a zero map? Is the eliminator not designed especially for the 08? Because before 08 there was no OEM Sensor?
Am I the only German having this problem? Can not find anything about 08 with PCV problems in other ZZR1400 Forums. Looks like the optimiser you are talking about is not available yet, nothing on the Dynojet page so far.
Greets Bernd
|
chrisdhall
Novice Class
Posts: 64
|
posted May 17, 2011 11:45 PM
quote:
Is the eliminator not designed especially for the 08? Because before 08 there was no OEM Sensor?
I think you'll find that the eliminator is generic and will be used on many models in the Kawasaki range. My understanding is that the '08-on ECU is expecting to see a varying "signal" from the O2 sensor. eg rich condition or lean condition, the ECU then responds by altering the fueling to bring it to somewhere near 14.7:1. With the generic eliminator in place a constant "signal" is seen by the ECU and it responds (after a while) by shutting off the engine momentarily (Question to Kawasaki - Why?? This is not a failsafe response to, say, a faulty sensor).
tauchpiranha - Have you tried running with the the oem sensor disconnected and no eliminator?? (ignore the FI warning). Does it run ok then?
If you run it with Autotune and the OEM sensor in place the two systems will be conflict, Autotune will add fuel to your chosen AFR, the ECU will try remove it to get AFR to 14.7:1
I guess eventually one will hit a boundary value and the conflict will end!
My optimizer is the production version, the reason for the distribution delay was that as we know the US don't have O2 sensor, and Dynojet US did not have an European spec 14 which they could use for the installation instructions. So mine was used for the install pics (fame at last!).
Chris
|
tauchpiranha
Parking Attendant
Posts: 5
|
posted May 18, 2011 05:20 AM
Sounds that you know what you are talking about Chris. I have not tried to run the bike with disconnected OEM Sensor and no eliminator yet but thats the only think left. Today I removed the header to drill another hole for the OEM sensor to get it back on.
By using the optimiser can I still block off the secundary air system?
Greets Bernd
|
chrisdhall
Novice Class
Posts: 64
|
posted May 18, 2011 06:04 AM
quote:
Sounds that you know what you are talking about Chris. I have not tried to run the bike with disconnected OEM Sensor and no eliminator yet but thats the only think left. Today I removed the header to drill another hole for the OEM sensor to get it back on.
By using the optimiser can I still block off the secundary air system?
Greets Bernd
I only know what I have been told by Dynojet and tried for myself!!
I have the secondary air system blocked and the optimiser, I think blocking the secondary air system is a pre-requisite for fitting the Autotune. Otherwise the AFR reading will be wrong.
I ran mine with the OEM Sensor removed (replaced by Dynojet's sensor) and no eliminator for about a year, no problems other than having to cancel the FI error every time the bike was started.
It's not a good idea to run the O2 sensors installed but not connected for long periods
|
tauchpiranha
Parking Attendant
Posts: 5
|
posted May 18, 2011 10:29 AM
Thanks for the Information. I removed all that Dynojet gimmicks from my bike for know. Have to wait untill they come out with a solution.
Greets Bernd
|
GREYHOUNDMOSES
Expert Class
Posts: 324
|
posted May 18, 2011 10:45 AM
quote:
Thanks for the Information. I removed all that Dynojet gimmicks from my bike for know. Have to wait untill they come out with a solution.
I haven't anything to add to what Chris has told you. You two have the same set up regarding the
Autotune so when the optimiser is available you should be fine.
If you keep checking in, I'll post when I get mine and if they're still not available in Germany, I'm sure
if you get in touch with Martin at Dynojet UK he'll sort something.
|
matgriff
Parking Attendant
Posts: 9
|
posted May 19, 2011 10:52 PM
I have exactly the same issue with my 2009 ZZR1400. Fitted a PCV (bike has flies out, K&N filter, STD exhaust with main CAT removed)
Basically I started by using the STD dynojet 501 map, but i have since loaded a map from my mates 2010 bike which was set up on a dyno.... anyhow the problem is that the bike will not run correctly in the closed loop area, especially at very light throttle, it starts to die or at least starts to really lean out after a while.
The problems are definitley related to the 2009 bikes onward, the ECU definitely needs to see some state change in the AFR in response to the lambda sensor, that's why the 02 eliminators don't work. Also the ECU employs some form of adaptive fuel mapping, where the injector duration times are stored in both a short & long term memory area, these are used in case of 02 sensor failure. When fitting the PCV these need to be reset by removing the ECU fuse for a while.
I intend to get my bike properly dynoed, but not until I can get the optimizer fitted so that the 02 sensor signal is offset, which causes the ECU to think that the ideal AFR (or set point) is 14.7:1 when it;s actually 13.6:1
Mat
|
tauchpiranha
Parking Attendant
Posts: 5
|
posted May 20, 2011 09:35 AM
Good to know that I´m not allone. Are you guys from UK?
|
matgriff
Parking Attendant
Posts: 9
|
posted May 20, 2011 11:21 PM
yes UK for me :-)
|
ZZR-Treiber
Parking Attendant
Posts: 17
|
posted May 21, 2011 03:37 PM
Hello,
like Tauchpiranha I´m from Germany and have the same problem with my
08 ZX14 and the OEM lambda sensor / eliminator. I removed the OEM sensor and replaced it with the broadband sensor delivered with the autotune (BOSCH LSU 4.2). Now I have the problem that I cannot remove this sensor, because the thread of the OEM sensor is much
smaller. I think the solution is to simulate a signal depending on the A/F ratio from the
autotune and inject this signal to the connector of the OEM sensor. So far no problem. With my CAN BUS SNIFFER I can read the messages from the PC5 CAN BUS. It´s 29 bit
identifier with a speed of 1MB/s. There are only 2 IDs used. I guess ID 201330954
represents the A/F ratio. Does anybody know how to interpret or calculate the ratio
from the can bus data. I think it´s only a number between 0 and 255).
Greets
Holger
|
ZZR-Treiber
Parking Attendant
Posts: 17
|
posted May 22, 2011 06:56 AM
sorry,
the autotune ID is 218109995.
But I still cannot interpret the data.
Greets
Holger
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC