gilberjj
Needs a job
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posted December 20, 2010 08:45 AM
Thick head gasket for boooooost
I've got some technical questions, and I was wondering if anyone could help. I just got off the phone with cometic and they said they can make a stock bore MLS head gasket .140" in thickness.
1. Will that retard or advance my timeing (retard right)? Would I be required to run adjustable cam sprockets with that gasket?
2. Can I pull the head easily with the motor still on the bike, or should I pull the motor? I'll be doing valve springs at the same time.
3. Do you have any idea what that would lower my compression to (I have a 100% stock motor right now)?
  
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06redzx14
Pro
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posted December 20, 2010 08:51 AM
 Edited By: 06redzx14 on 20 Dec 2010 16:53
you'll need studs if you go this route.
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii166/RickeyGadson/IMG00993-20101020-1544.jpg
I did this to check before I pulled my motor
____________
06 alien head, no flies, PC+hub, 16/45 44 43, air shifter, dry shot
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Shane661
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posted December 20, 2010 08:56 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 20 Dec 2010 17:00
I think .140 is way thicker than you would need. I would choose a target compression ratio, and then have the gasket made to achieve that number.
I believe you will be bringing the lobe centers closer with a thicker gasket, and that will reduce PTV clearance. Wait for the experts to chime in on that, though.
Shane
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01smokes
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posted December 20, 2010 02:38 PM
you are over thinking this build way to much just run pump gas on stock motor 6psi and have fun it will make 240+ and live a LONG time
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Big_T112
Pro
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posted December 20, 2010 03:13 PM
It want matter but a few ponies if you don't use adjustable sprockets. .140 is way thicker than I would use for a head gasket. You don't have to pull the motor all the way out you can leave the bottom back mount bolt in and pull the rest so you can lean the motor forward. Studs would be a minimum if you plan of turning it up. Do like 01 says if you just want low boost. I installed 2mm shorter rods and turbo pistons with my 14.
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MJ
Zone Head
Posts: 560
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posted December 22, 2010 12:14 AM
quote:
you are over thinking this build way to much just run pump gas on stock motor 6psi and have fun it will make 240+ and live a LONG time
+1. Or if you want more power run 8lbs of boost and pull some timing like ZXBob did. His 14 lasted him forever on the street, and is still running strong with the new owner last I heard. Besides you drop compression too much and you have an off boost dog, not what you want for the street. Plus you have to run more boost just to make up for the power that thick ass head gasket cost you  Is this going to be a track only bike, street only, or both?
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Ozonkiller
Expert Class
Posts: 350
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posted December 22, 2010 08:37 PM
I would think that a gasket that thick would ruin the quench (squish) and make it prone to detonation.
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johnbull
Expert Class
Posts: 314
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posted December 24, 2010 06:14 AM
I think you mean 0.040" which is ten thou thicker than the stock gasket. MTC also offer this gasket.
0.140 would make it nearly four times as thick as the stock gasket!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Putting a thicker gasket will advance the timeing on both cams.
What sort of boost are you planning on running????
____________
John Bul Racing. Malta.
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bbwatercool
Novice Class
Posts: 64
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posted December 25, 2010 06:59 AM
quote:
I've got some technical questions, and I was wondering if anyone could help. I just got off the phone with cometic and they said they can make a stock bore MLS head gasket .140" in thickness.
1. Will that retard or advance my timeing (retard right)? Would I be required to run adjustable cam sprockets with that gasket?
2. Can I pull the head easily with the motor still on the bike, or should I pull the motor? I'll be doing valve springs at the same time.
3. Do you have any idea what that would lower my compression to (I have a 100% stock motor right now)?
Give me a call and I'll make sure you get all the right parts..You are going way too far with head gasket thickness, etc..
____________
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KZScott
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posted December 25, 2010 10:34 AM
are you putting in pistons that would generally require a spacer?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Compton
Zone Head
Posts: 969
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posted December 25, 2010 11:35 AM
quote:
are you putting in pistons that would generally require a spacer?
no such animal as a spacer on a 14.
____________
b.w.
zx14, little longer, little louder, little lower.
08 Busa, just a little longer and louder and lower than the 14
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gilberjj
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posted December 25, 2010 03:53 PM
Edited By: gilberjj on 26 Dec 2010 00:00
I was asking this question because I don't know much about this, and how much that would affect my compression, etc. Thanks for all the responses. Chris Jones recommended me putting in a thicker head gasket and he said they make gaskets thicker then what most shops (like Schnitz) carry or mention on their sites. I'm putting in heavy duty valve springs, and while I'm in there, I figure if I'm going to put in a thicker head gasket, that's the time to do it.
Here's the email from Cometic
quote:
Hello,
.094" is the thickest copper and .140" is the thickest MLS we can make. What
are you looking for?
Sincerely,
Asheley Leonello
1.440.354.0350 FAX
1.440.354.0777 EXT. 136
Wouldn't it be beneficial to lower the compression a little?
edit: I think if I remember correctly, Chris Jones recommended a 0.94" gasket. One of his customers was using this gasket on a stock motor with one of his kits running VERY low 8's at I BELIEVE up to 18 psi!!!! I don't have a big enough turbo for that kind of boost, but that's why I'm on here.
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gilberjj
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posted December 25, 2010 03:57 PM
quote:
I think you mean 0.040" which is ten thou thicker than the stock gasket. MTC also offer this gasket.
0.140 would make it nearly four times as thick as the stock gasket!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Putting a thicker gasket will advance the timeing on both cams.
What sort of boost are you planning on running????
.140" is the thickest they make. I'm thinking my setup might see 10-12, MAYBE 15 psi if I can make it reliable. I will not be building the internals.
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KZScott
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posted December 25, 2010 06:14 PM
quote:
quote:
are you putting in pistons that would generally require a spacer?
no such animal as a spacer on a 14.
base spacer no, head spacer yes(thats what this thread is about) you could design a piston with a deeper dish, proper quench, and maintain a safe thick top.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Compton
Zone Head
Posts: 969
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posted December 25, 2010 08:15 PM
sorry, never have used the term as a head spacer.
____________
b.w.
zx14, little longer, little louder, little lower.
08 Busa, just a little longer and louder and lower than the 14
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gilberjj
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Posts: 3196
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posted December 25, 2010 08:36 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
are you putting in pistons that would generally require a spacer?
no such animal as a spacer on a 14.
base spacer no, head spacer yes(thats what this thread is about) you could design a piston with a deeper dish, proper quench, and maintain a safe thick top.
If I was designing a piston, then I wouldn't be using stock pistons. I'm not going to be putting in different pistons. This thread is about asking whether it is WORTH lowering the compression via a thicker head gasket on a stock motor. If I'm in there already, should I do it? If so, how thick and why?
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KZScott
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posted December 26, 2010 07:43 PM
Edited By: KZScott on 27 Dec 2010 03:44
i think its pretty common in the busa world to lower cr by using a spacer and retain stock pistons(to make more power), but its better to use a piston designed to work with a spacer
if the heads off, why not open up the combustion chambers some to drop cr a bit that way too?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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01smokes
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posted December 26, 2010 08:28 PM
quote:
i think its pretty common in the busa world to lower cr by using a spacer and retain stock pistons(to make more power), but its better to use a piston designed to work with a spacer
if the heads off, why not open up the combustion chambers some to drop cr a bit that way too?
How will lowering the compression make more power???
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Email, artvgl@yahoo.com
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gilberjj
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posted December 26, 2010 09:19 PM
quote:
quote:
i think its pretty common in the busa world to lower cr by using a spacer and retain stock pistons(to make more power), but its better to use a piston designed to work with a spacer
if the heads off, why not open up the combustion chambers some to drop cr a bit that way too?
How will lowering the compression make more power???
Allows you to safely run more booooost
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01smokes
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posted December 26, 2010 11:38 PM
Edited By: 01smokes on 27 Dec 2010 07:40
quote:
quote:
quote:
i think its pretty common in the busa world to lower cr by using a spacer and retain stock pistons(to make more power), but its better to use a piston designed to work with a spacer
if the heads off, why not open up the combustion chambers some to drop cr a bit that way too?
How will lowering the compression make more power???
Allows you to safely run more booooost
so you can run a couple pounds of boost more safely right, but what is that gonna do your if you take 20hp out of your bike by lowering the compression??? its gonna put you back to the same hp that you would have made with lower boost and higher compression. So now you can tell people that you run 10 instead of 7 even tho they make the same power...
that low compression high boost is a thing of the past with the fuel thats out there you can run high compression and fair amount of boost and make big power
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johnbull
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posted December 27, 2010 02:16 AM
Thats true 01smokes.
I would rather keep relatively high compression ratio and lower boost than lowering the compression to run higher boost because by doing that you just kill the response of the engine.
Ive run 11PSI with stock compression and stock timing reliably on a car which creates a lot more load than on a bike. The trick is USE GOOD FUEL!!!!
____________
John Bul Racing. Malta.
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1badzx12r
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posted December 27, 2010 07:36 AM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 27 Dec 2010 15:40
quote:
on a car which creates a lot more load than on a bike. !!!!
835lbs here with 18/41 gearing
just for fun what does your car with rider weigh together
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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1badzx12r
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posted December 27, 2010 07:38 AM
quote:
Here's the email from Cometic
quote:
Hello,
.094" is the thickest copper and .140" is the thickest MLS we can make. What
are you looking for?
Sincerely,
Asheley Leonello
1.440.354.0350 FAX
1.440.354.0777 EXT. 136
thanks for the phone number and the find on the copper gasket
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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watthecu
Zone Head
PissingContestHere
Posts: 543
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posted December 27, 2010 09:48 AM
Edited By: watthecu on 27 Dec 2010 17:54
quote:
I've got some technical questions, and I was wondering if anyone could help. I just got off the phone with cometic and they said they can make a stock bore MLS head gasket .140" in thickness.
1. Will that retard or advance my timeing (retard right)? Would I be required to run adjustable cam sprockets with that gasket?
2. Can I pull the head easily with the motor still on the bike, or should I pull the motor? I'll be doing valve springs at the same time.
3. Do you have any idea what that would lower my compression to (I have a 100% stock motor right now)?
1. Correct; Retard. If I run up more steps as the flame front is heading my way, am I more advanced running at it or running away from it? Yes, if you want to go fast then uncork it where you can >at the sprockets. No, plug and play and now you have less poop with low compression. You'll just move the torque [lower] is all.
2. For that answer, a factory flat-rate time will say if head clears or tilt forward to clear or might as well pull engine. Only your hair dresser knows for sure.
3. No. There is a formula to it but I'll mess the numbers or choose the wrong number. Not my my box of nails. Like, will I valve float with more distance from piston dome? I can whip the shit out of it and then some, no? Maybe I find who blows off the load I keep lobe in the look see? Tag my valves before I tag piston, no? .094"? .040" is race safe. .094 is rod out the door. Yeah, I want to shorten the rod and spin the shit even higher out the case.
Let FBA set it up for ya. LOL...... Hey FB... FlubberBubber your Ass over here and get some!
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johnbull
Expert Class
Posts: 314
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posted December 27, 2010 10:31 AM
quote:
quote:
on a car which creates a lot more load than on a bike. !!!!
835lbs here with 18/41 gearing
just for fun what does your car with rider weigh together
The car with driver - total weight is 1186 lbs and uses a rear tyre patch of 2 X super soft 12" wide slicks.
Gearing is 17/57 with 22.6" diameter rear tyres.
____________
John Bul Racing. Malta.
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