total_chaos
Novice Class
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posted September 22, 2010 07:28 PM
 Edited By: total_chaos on 23 Sep 2010 03:52
New guys zx14 down
Hey guys i'm new here. I have an 06 zx14 with about 12k on it. I have not molested or abused this zx but i have ridden it to it's full potential. I recently tore it down to get the diagnostics correct after locking up at 140 while let out of it from about a 200mph tun for about 2miles or so on the interstate. I found that number one rod was locking up and squeling when testing the bike with a fresh battery and no fuel or spark plugs. The engine turned very roughly on cylinder 1 when pressure was applied. I removed the rod bearings for inspection and also noticed what look like metal burn marks on the side of the rod and crankshaft. The bearing was failing severely but had not came apart. The bearing did not seem spun either. The rod and bearing still seemed to be in tack. So how did this damage occur if the bearing never spun? Why did the protective coating just wear off of rod bearing 1 and not any of the others? Why is the coating still good on all mains and all rods execept for just this one. Would anyone please like to help me solve this mystery and repair my bike safely and securely.
I have been a BMW factory tech, Mercruiser factory tech, omc, yamaha blah blah . But i have never been a Factory Motorcycle Tech. I would like to get some words of wisdom here and i'm totally humbled by your oppinion. So guys this is a real post needing real responses. Others are going to google this some day and say WOW exactly what i was looking for. Please help. Thanks
  
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Bigbore4
Zone Head
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posted September 22, 2010 08:27 PM
Considering the fact that you were a "BMW factory tech", you're asking some pretty silly questions 
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total_chaos
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posted September 22, 2010 08:40 PM
Wow seriously bigbore? Is that honestly the best thing you could come up with was some sarcastic remark that made absolutely no sense? Is this the impression i should get from this site when i asked honest and real questions? Just looking for a second oppinion. Everyone should get one. My oppinion is there was a fault from the factory. The parts failed due to factory techs build is my oppinion. Or was i sabotaged by some weirdo like yourself?
Damn what's up with the losers in forums these days?
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Bigbore4
Zone Head
Posts: 806
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posted September 22, 2010 08:47 PM
That is Funny. 12000 miles of running it flatout and you want to blame Kawi?
According to your "experience", you must be really sharp, so to ask questions about an engine that is sitting in front of you and no one else, is just a bit silly.
If you had any "real" experience, you would understand that if an engine has an inherent problem with the Rotating assemblies, it's not going to make it 12K.
If it was assembled incorrectly you would know about it after the first time you hammered it.
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INTIMIDA2OR
Needs a life
RED rider!
Posts: 13081
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posted September 22, 2010 10:29 PM
Sounds like the motor wasn't broken in properly.
What kind of oil, miles ,mods, and do you hit the rev limiter when you start the bike cold ?
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14
*Lee*
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total_chaos
Novice Class
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posted September 23, 2010 02:02 AM
never hit it cold , m4's, pc3 with jeffo map 16 tooth front sprocket, barnett clutch, oil change every 3, very very well maintained. only 2000 on kawasaki synthetic oil. I removed the pan and saw the shavings. So i'm sure they went through the entire bike so i tore the whole engine down and inspected and checked over everything. Everything seems fine except for the number one rod. And yes break in could be an issue but i put the last 8 k on it myself. I can show anyone pics that needs them. I think the crank will either have to be replaced or supercranked. And i have found a set of rods with only 1400 on them. Any suggestions?
Nate
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BobC
Pro
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posted September 23, 2010 03:23 AM
Edited By: BobC on 23 Sep 2010 13:00
Somethings not right here. You said 200mph for 2 miles and you run a 16 tooth engine sprocket. That would have been over the engine rev-limiter by about 450rpm. In other words not possible. Have I misunderstood?
I hope you get it fixed but it doesn't sound like a warranty claim would succeed.
If you mean an indicated 200:
I calculate that an indicated 200 on a ZX-14 with an accurate but uncorrected speedo running 16/41 gearing is 188mph.
On a typical ZX-14 with it's 7% optimistic speedo that a real 174mph.
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Candy Thunder Blue 2006 ZZR1400
Stock wheelbase
Max: 205.4 mph in 1.25 miles
2012 ZZR1400 in Golden Blazed Green
Brock CT Full System. etc
Max: 203.1 in 1 mile (so far)
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smokinZX14
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posted September 23, 2010 06:28 AM
12k of riding it easy ..lol.. 200 MPH for 2 miles ? It's a motorcycle NOT superman !!! Look if you are going to ride it like that i would add a good set of rods , fresh crank and add a larger oil pan ... 4 QTs of oil at 200 mph for 2 miles? most of that oil was in the top end of the motor with no time to drain back to the pan...It only takes a few seconds to starve a bearing ... It will not spin a bearing doing that shit one or two times but if you keep doing that it will .. Racing the 1/4 mile as i do takes it toll over time but holding it WOT for miles the toll bell will ring a lot sooner ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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total_chaos
Novice Class
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posted September 23, 2010 07:01 AM
Ok the 200 mph is ofcourse with stock gearing and ofcourse speedo is off so maybe 190 plus . But what i meant was basically i ride it like it was meant to ride. I've held it wide open for a couple miles in other words. But never abused it . You should have gathered that from the statement. Did i do something to offend you guys? I see so many critizing and being sarcastic as hell and guys i'm just asking some honest questions here. I still fail to believe i starved just one bearing. Possible but if you saw the actual damage it's nothing severe. Just enough to through off that one rod. Maybe i chose the wrong site and the wrong people to chat with. My apologies gentlemen i'll take my troubles elsewhere.
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oilfieldtrash
Zone Head
Kawasaki enthusiast
Posts: 506
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posted September 23, 2010 07:18 AM
I think you got the answer you were looking for in the post above you. According to what Smokin said is the zx14 stock motor or any stock motor isn't made for 2 mile wide open runs.
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'09 zx6r lime green bone stock
'07 white S.E. ZX-14 sold
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Hellmutt
Needs a job
Posts: 2013
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posted September 23, 2010 07:28 AM
Post up some pics of the damage -- that's why we're guessing at the remedy and have trouble taking you seriously...........I'm not judging you man, but I think I would've left out the fact that you're a mechanic to begin with -- considering you've announced mechanical skill, and then floggin' your bike that way just doesn't add up here..........these bikes run faster than most any other, but like smokin' said - limited oil supply and extended high rev's are a BAD combo.
Most of us here do tend to joke around with one another, as well as with new-comers -- just breaking you in the hard way is all!!
Seriously, post up some pics and let these fella's help you out -- first impressions aside 
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British flying couch with endtables and an orange thumper
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Meangreen14
Expert Class
Posts: 343
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posted September 23, 2010 07:29 AM
Damn I did not now that, I've never bin wide open for 2 miles, I've only gone a little under a mile wide open a couple times, but good to know SMOKING, because if I had the room I woulda done it lol
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PCV, quick shifter, stock gearing,
fly's out, custom garrett gt28 stage1 turbo, JE pistons, 625cc inj, MTC lock up clutch,1:1 fuel pressure regulator...
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Meangreen14
Expert Class
Posts: 343
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posted September 23, 2010 07:34 AM
Back when I wasn't on boost of corse....,
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PCV, quick shifter, stock gearing,
fly's out, custom garrett gt28 stage1 turbo, JE pistons, 625cc inj, MTC lock up clutch,1:1 fuel pressure regulator...
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted September 23, 2010 07:36 AM
Based on your description, it is hard to say exactly what led to the problem It could have simply been a tight clearance on that bearing from the factory. On most kaws, #3 bearing seems to be the likely one to fail, on oil pressure related issues, so that is why I am wondering about that particular bearing clearance...especially since no other bearings show signs of heat, apparently.
Imo, holding the bike wide open for 2 miles should not cause an issue if it is adequately maintained, and has good oil. I have many miles of WFO operation in 1 - 1.5 mile venues, along with hundreds of dragstrip passes.
All that being said, with 12k miles on the motor, and many of them hard...well, anything can happen. You should have the crank inspected, and if the rod shows signs of heat I would replace it. That would be the bare minimum. There are many other upgrades you can make in order to insure the longevity of the motor under severe operating conditions.
Shane
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total_chaos
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posted September 23, 2010 07:46 AM
Edited By: total_chaos on 23 Sep 2010 15:49
Well after much research and a chat with Falicon they couldn't begin to determine the cause but suggested the crank service and I told them i have no problem trashing the crank so they said send it down and pay 50 bucks if it's trash so i think it's fair. Ofcourse i will be replacing the rods. I found a set in excellent condition on ebay for 150 that ran for only 1400 miles. Should i purchase those or just get the one brand new rod? I have a dealer account with Kawi and can get the rods and crank cheaper but still at 800 for a crank and 120 for a rod that's 920 vs buy the rods off ebay and get the crank done with falicon for 400. Well you see the savings but honestly is it worth it? I also noticed the importance of the rod bolt stretch so should i Buy the guage or just use my Mic? It's a professional grade but please give your oppinions. I am going out to my shop and taking pics of everything for you guys. I will look at the " posting pics for noobs" post i saw. I guess i'm just so upset about this whole situation that i'm a bit frsutrated and certain responses just seem more bashing then help ya know. Sorry but i'm doing my best. I usually buy the manual and books and read til i Build my engines right but this engine is so complex in the procedures i thought maybe i better get a second more professional oppinion. Anyway i will get back to you with pics within a couple hours. Thanks
Oh yeah also wanted to add that i saw the brand new crank on ebay for 650 for an 09 part # 13031-0098 the 06 is a 0056 are they just different numbers or is it a completely different crank? The dealer here locally could not even answer this question.
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smokinZX14
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posted September 23, 2010 08:20 AM
quote:
Well after much research and a chat with Falicon they couldn't begin to determine the cause but suggested the crank service and I told them i have no problem trashing the crank so they said send it down and pay 50 bucks if it's trash so i think it's fair. Ofcourse i will be replacing the rods. I found a set in excellent condition on ebay for 150 that ran for only 1400 miles. Should i purchase those or just get the one brand new rod? I have a dealer account with Kawi and can get the rods and crank cheaper but still at 800 for a crank and 120 for a rod that's 920 vs buy the rods off ebay and get the crank done with falicon for 400. Well you see the savings but honestly is it worth it? I also noticed the importance of the rod bolt stretch so should i Buy the guage or just use my Mic? It's a professional grade but please give your oppinions. I am going out to my shop and taking pics of everything for you guys. I will look at the " posting pics for noobs" post i saw. I guess i'm just so upset about this whole situation that i'm a bit frsutrated and certain responses just seem more bashing then help ya know. Sorry but i'm doing my best. I usually buy the manual and books and read til i Build my engines right but this engine is so complex in the procedures i thought maybe i better get a second more professional oppinion. Anyway i will get back to you with pics within a couple hours. Thanks
Oh yeah also wanted to add that i saw the brand new crank on ebay for 650 for an 09 part # 13031-0098 the 06 is a 0056 are they just different numbers or is it a completely different crank? The dealer here locally could not even answer this question.
Don't send it to Falicon !! Send it to Marine Crankshaft .. Trust me on that one please .. Get a set of aftermarket rods ..... Call Adams or someone like him and get a pan made up that will hold a bit more oil ..Use a top brand syn oil ..I use Mobil one car oil , full syn .. I would not raise the oil presure but i would add the Muzzy oil pump cover ..From what i have been told by Chris Jones the stock one leaks at higher RPMs ..You should have no problems after that ..Still there are no bets on how long it will last if you keep it WOT for two or more miles ..I can say that we see little problems racing the 1/4 mile or even racing a mile on this bikes.. Just remember this , a motor at 10.600 RPMs for 30 seconds will have one QT of oil caught up in the crank .. One to one and half QTs caught up in the head and another Qt trapped in the transmission.. So you have 3 1/2 QTs or more caught up in the engine and 1/2 or less in the pan.. You get air in the oil and starve the motor if only for a second or two and you are doing damage to the bearings ..The oil can't simply flow back to the pan fast enough to keep the pan full and will uncover the oil pickup..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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Hellmutt
Needs a job
Posts: 2013
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posted September 23, 2010 08:37 AM
What's the function of the Muzzy oil pump cover smokin?? Does it help maintain constant oil flow with little/no cavitation, or does it serve some other function? Never heard of this.
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British flying couch with endtables and an orange thumper
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total_chaos
Novice Class
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posted September 23, 2010 08:42 AM
Edited By: total_chaos on 23 Sep 2010 16:49
here is a pick just testing                Hope these help shed some light on the subject
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Shane661
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posted September 23, 2010 08:45 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 23 Sep 2010 16:46
quote:
What's the function of the Muzzy oil pump cover smokin?? Does it help maintain constant oil flow with little/no cavitation, or does it serve some other function? Never heard of this.
When you increase the oil pressure by shimming the relief (or using a heavier relief), it can bow/damage the stock cover, from my understanding. Apparently Lee is saying that the stock cover leaks, even with stock oil pressure...
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smokinZX14
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posted September 23, 2010 08:48 AM
quote:
What's the function of the Muzzy oil pump cover smokin?? Does it help maintain constant oil flow with little/no cavitation, or does it serve some other function? Never heard of this.
The stock cover leaks under pressure , Chis jones has seen the leak first hand on stock motors.. His fix is to add a bit of sealant to the stock cover .. I think a better fix would be to add a thicker Muzzy cover ..IMO
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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total_chaos
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posted September 23, 2010 08:51 AM
Edited By: total_chaos on 23 Sep 2010 17:31
Ok guys i setup some pics for all to see. You're looking at number one rod and crank journal. Awaiting input.
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wrongway
Pro
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posted September 23, 2010 09:47 AM
quote:
... 4 QTs of oil at 200 mph for 2 miles? most of that oil was in the top end of the motor with no time to drain back to the pan.....
I have never been racing at Bonneville, but the long course is 5 miles. I have not heard anyone saying they overfill the crankcase or using higher capacity pans ...
the stock BMW just ran there without issue ... There haver been ZX-14 out there also.
Maybe some of the SCTA guys can shed some light .
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total_chaos
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posted September 23, 2010 10:31 AM
So today i finally called Kawasaki about my issue. They ran the vin and i have an extended warranty til June next year. Then i spoke with my Local Master tech and he said bring me everything we'll call you when it's done. OMG OMG OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow i feel like such a retard guys. I just couldn't believe what i was hearing. I've been praying on it and well I guess i should have checked with Kawasaki first but the guys told me it was out of warranty then Kawi Consumer Services said it was still under warranty. WOW wow and wow !!! I'll still keep you guys posted on what they say about it. best thing is he told me since it was all organized to just bring it to him as is. WOW !!! Please don't make fun of me for the next 5 years i swear I'll never tear down another thing TIL I CHECK WITH THE HEADQUARTERS FIRST!!!
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Hellmutt
Needs a job
Posts: 2013
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posted September 23, 2010 11:26 AM
Awesome luck!! Could'nt ask for more there -- excellent
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British flying couch with endtables and an orange thumper
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total_chaos
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posted September 23, 2010 01:16 PM
Man ur tellin me. I was kinda looking forward to my first 14 rebuild but at the same time the cost was going to be well above a good used engine around here so My only hope now is that they replace the entire engine rather than rebuild it. It sent shavings all through the block and as you can see that bearing is pretty ugly and after even more careful close inspection I think it did actually spin a few times as well. Either way its Kawi's baby now Man one thing I can say is THANK GOD FOR EXTENDED WARRANTY!! Crossing my fingers and hoping for a new engine rather than a rebuild. So in the future what can i do to extend the life of this next engine? I gave all my Busa's so much hell and rolled out so many gears fully tached and even flipped one about 6 times end over end side over side and never once has an engine failed on me. I don't want to dog the 14 but where's the dependability  . I sure hope this was a fluke and I never experience again unless it's actually my fault ya know. Well i'll check back lata guys. Thanks for counseling me anyway lol.
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