wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
|
posted April 25, 2010 06:18 AM
Stock injectors -- limits with E85
After doing some testing at the dragstrip I have determined that I have reached the limit of the stock injectors. I was not able to get the fuel richer than 12.2 going thru the traps. The bike was making 200 hp on the dyno , but I had to add some fuel when testing at the track to compensate for the ram air. I don't know how much more power it makes with the ram air , but guessing the factory was correct with their claim of 10 hp at 186mph.
So now I am looking for larger injectors .....
Roy
  
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted April 25, 2010 06:22 AM
whats the fuel pressure?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted April 25, 2010 06:23 AM
Roy, I'm having a set of Bosch injectors made that would work well for your application. They are about $300 bucks for a set.
I'll have more info in a few days.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
|
posted April 25, 2010 06:26 AM
quote:
Roy, I'm having a set of Bosch injectors made that would work well for your application. They are about $300 bucks for a set.
I'll have more info in a few days.
that is good news .... will I need to cut the wiring harness or get another fuel rail ?
Roy
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted April 25, 2010 06:58 AM
These are going to be machined down to fit the stock fuel rail. But you will have to switch connectors. Not a big deal, they come with the new connectors, just solder and shrink tube the wires. The injector harness is on ebay for cheep if you ever wanted a stock one again.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
|
posted April 25, 2010 09:07 AM
quote:
I was not able to get the fuel richer than 12.2 going thru the traps.
Close down the air screws to zero opening. Wait till you see you move off the scale. My WideBand slows I am way too rich.... Way richer than 12.2, your eyes would pop. Then I opened the air screws = 15:1. Close the air screws down 1/8th turn = 14:1 is more a quick glance at the difference and performance change just messing around. I'm about to wire up the A/F option to the WB so I can stop guessing glancing at the A/F meter. Readout the real numbers so as not to toggle the piggy and watch that richen to 13:something. This is all guess work reading that 02 signal and setting up the needles. You have to, half two tube up all 4 sync tubes for balance. If you do not, you are half guessing where the screw vs. equal pressure between cylinders are?
I believe those injectors are way too rich is wink-wink is the air fills faster than the fuel by a turn; you need to buy bigger injectors. So, the question is, did you work the air screws to their limit? I'm not even close yet and she likes to burn tire with a tap of the throttle. Even the engine note is different.
I owe you, ww.
____________
E-tard
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted April 25, 2010 12:21 PM
The air screws are for balancing the air flow at idle. They have zero impact at anything over about 1 or 2 % throttle. You should not use those screws to set the a/f ratio, even at an idle. They are not air screws for the emulsion tubes like on a carb.
Use the powercommander to set the a/f ratio.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
|
posted April 25, 2010 01:26 PM
 Edited By: speedgene on 25 Apr 2010 21:28
quote:
The air screws are for balancing the air flow at idle. They have zero impact at anything over about 1 or 2 % throttle. You should not use those screws to set the a/f ratio, even at an idle. They are not air screws for the emulsion tubes like on a carb.
Use the powercommander to set the a/f ratio.
Use need to show up on some abandon road, and I'll show you low speed zero impact. Yes or no... Do not argue the point until you have the answer I asked solved you need to wet it more with peeC.
At idle, the hole is present and air is being sucked in with each pulse on the intake valve closed. At WOT, the air screw is not closed, can still move air in that hole ~ YES OR NO?
OK, now we are way too rich and will the low speed screw send more air into that passage and forgo what would have been passed under the throttle plate, did we richen up or can we lean out the bike with an air screw move? Every pulse entered has that air entering before the gas. Who took up the void with the faster speed is lean out the chamber with the air still pushing through that hole, YES OR NO?
If you tell me that no air is present at WOT through that hole, you need to logically explain away that lean trick at the needle move. So, if I am running at freeways speeds, is that throttle plate just about off it's stopper? Kind of a narrow opening of that cruise throttle plate, she goes lean on the screw out or rich at the screw in, cruising speed, YES OR NO?
Trapped! YOu are so fucking trapped in the tune of it all. Eat you linears for lunch and that peeC.
____________
E-tard
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted April 25, 2010 05:50 PM
You dont adjust the a/f with those screws, ever. Thats not what they are there for.
You adjust the a/f ratio by changing the injector pulse width no matter what rpm or throttle position.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
|
posted April 25, 2010 06:10 PM
oh boy ..hear it goes
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
|
wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
|
posted April 25, 2010 09:29 PM
I dont think Jim knows HUB....I think HUB uses a random word generator for his replies.
Roy
|
wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
|
posted April 25, 2010 09:31 PM
quote:
whats the fuel pressure?
I had bumbed the stock pump up to 70 PSI on this bike, but to be honest I havent checked it in a while.
Roy
|
speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
|
posted April 26, 2010 07:34 AM
Y2, If I have an air leak, will that leak stop at higher rpm, I forget to tighten a spigot tie down band? Y2, You did not say, Yes, or No, there is no air leak at higher rpm. Answer that question, so I can either use No against you is your abstract to the tuning process and explain that scenario.
Now, at low speeds and that screw, can you, CAN YOU, lean out the idle or richen the idle with a set screw that moves air, instead of gas in the low speed end of it, yes or no?
So, how do you throw fuel at it or remove fuel if you have two options. One is air, the other is fuel. How come the air leak will stall the bike? Did that say the air moved into the cylinder is the new A/F ratio? We shut off fuel, say in a carb's low speed screw. We just messed with the fuel [not air, right?] screw and this does shut down fuel, but does not the air equally replace the fuel once the intake closes?
Now, can you remove fuel from the cylinder if you add more air like loosen the spigot ring and stick a screwdriver shaft down the spigot for air adjustments, yes or no for argument sake? So, did the air displace the volume, we stall the engine?
Yes or No? So, if we install a fuel sampler, the 02 says you are so rich now without a fuel cutter, how can you remove the fuel? Wasn't the bike suppose to blow up being so lean? How come my air screw moves just lean out the linear the more I open the throttle.
I now have this super crisp wheel spinning bottom end and then it coverts back to the richer set(?) I just can feel it drop off, I now need the PC to bring the fuel back down or bump it up? No, the crisp just climbs along like the lower end the more I feed throttle. Explain that away for me.
When you move in 1/8th increments, you pull the sync tubes out and re-balance. How come this tuning is working out for me, I toggle that Tfi at it and the meter keeps aiming for 11:1 I'm just cruising at a light load. Where is the sustained 12/13:1 or there abouts?
When I WOT the throttle, the WB meter runs to 10 on the accel pump then sustains a 11:1 on the full tilt WOT. How's that for not even being close yet. Did I cook the engine I WOT it up to red line and she is hugging 11:1 like normal. I have zip oil loss. That means the rings are sealing, there does not seem to be a piston score or detonation problem, I have the fuel running so rich, I'll need a PC to (-) out a lot of grid positions, being that rich still.
Or do I run the diminishing returns on the air screws? My bike runs so rich, it is off the scale, literally. I may poke screwdrivers out the spigots just to tune it lean that way. No lie!
____________
E-tard
|
Compton
Zone Head
Posts: 969
|
posted April 26, 2010 07:38 AM
quote:
These are going to be machined down to fit the stock fuel rail. But you will have to switch connectors. Not a big deal, they come with the new connectors, just solder and shrink tube the wires. The injector harness is on ebay for cheep if you ever wanted a stock one again.
are they the injectors from five0motorsports?
____________
b.w.
zx14, little longer, little louder, little lower.
08 Busa, just a little longer and louder and lower than the 14
|
wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
|
posted April 26, 2010 09:30 AM
quote:
quote:
These are going to be machined down to fit the stock fuel rail. But you will have to switch connectors. Not a big deal, they come with the new connectors, just solder and shrink tube the wires. The injector harness is on ebay for cheep if you ever wanted a stock one again.
are they the injectors from five0motorsports?
I doubt it. I ordered a set of those and they had all the wrong dimensions. I talked to Bruce and sent him a zx-14 injector so he could get something that fit, but I havent heard back from him yet.
Roy
|
wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
|
posted April 26, 2010 09:36 AM
quote:
Y2, If I have an air leak, will that leak stop at higher rpm,
I wont quit , but the vacuum will be so low at WOT that there wont be any flow. it wont change the the total airflow . This really is simple , and even you should be able to figure it out HUB.
the only folks that use vacuum leaks for tuning are restrictor plate guys who cheat ,,, because they are running high vacuum :-)
Roy
|
Compton
Zone Head
Posts: 969
|
posted April 26, 2010 10:39 AM
well i'd be all ears to see/hear about these injectors.
____________
b.w.
zx14, little longer, little louder, little lower.
08 Busa, just a little longer and louder and lower than the 14
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted April 26, 2010 03:10 PM
quote:
Y2, If I have an air leak, will that leak stop at higher rpm, I forget to tighten a spigot tie down band? Y2, You did not say, Yes, or No, there is no air leak at higher rpm. Answer that question, so I can either use No against you is your abstract to the tuning process and explain that scenario.
Now, at low speeds and that screw, can you, CAN YOU, lean out the idle or richen the idle with a set screw that moves air, instead of gas in the low speed end of it, yes or no?
So, how do you throw fuel at it or remove fuel if you have two options. One is air, the other is fuel. How come the air leak will stall the bike? Did that say the air moved into the cylinder is the new A/F ratio? We shut off fuel, say in a carb's low speed screw. We just messed with the fuel [not air, right?] screw and this does shut down fuel, but does not the air equally replace the fuel once the intake closes?
Now, can you remove fuel from the cylinder if you add more air like loosen the spigot ring and stick a screwdriver shaft down the spigot for air adjustments, yes or no for argument sake? So, did the air displace the volume, we stall the engine?
Yes or No? So, if we install a fuel sampler, the 02 says you are so rich now without a fuel cutter, how can you remove the fuel? Wasn't the bike suppose to blow up being so lean? How come my air screw moves just lean out the linear the more I open the throttle.
I now have this super crisp wheel spinning bottom end and then it coverts back to the richer set(?) I just can feel it drop off, I now need the PC to bring the fuel back down or bump it up? No, the crisp just climbs along like the lower end the more I feed throttle. Explain that away for me.
When you move in 1/8th increments, you pull the sync tubes out and re-balance. How come this tuning is working out for me, I toggle that Tfi at it and the meter keeps aiming for 11:1 I'm just cruising at a light load. Where is the sustained 12/13:1 or there abouts?
When I WOT the throttle, the WB meter runs to 10 on the accel pump then sustains a 11:1 on the full tilt WOT. How's that for not even being close yet. Did I cook the engine I WOT it up to red line and she is hugging 11:1 like normal. I have zip oil loss. That means the rings are sealing, there does not seem to be a piston score or detonation problem, I have the fuel running so rich, I'll need a PC to (-) out a lot of grid positions, being that rich still.
Or do I run the diminishing returns on the air screws? My bike runs so rich, it is off the scale, literally. I may poke screwdrivers out the spigots just to tune it lean that way. No lie!
Do you have a power commander on your bike?
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted April 26, 2010 03:19 PM
quote:
well i'd be all ears to see/hear about these injectors.
They are from Marren Fuel Injection. They are Bosch EV6 injectors that have been machined on the ends to fit the zx12/zx14/busas etc.
I'll be posting more on this in a few weeks after we do some testing of the 47 and 50 mm throttle bodies we are having made for the zx14. They will work in conjunction with our stage 2 and stage 3 cnc ported heads for the zx14.
But they would be great for the e85 setup too. Running a stock fuel pump at 70psi is surely going to reduce its life span. I recommend getting the bigger injectors and getting that pressure back down. I would call Tim Marren and ask him what size injector you actually need.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
|
posted April 26, 2010 07:26 PM
Edited By: speedgene on 27 Apr 2010 03:33
quote:
I wont quit , but the vacuum will be so low at WOT that there wont be any flow. it wont change the the total airflow . This really is simple , and even you should be able to figure it out HUB.
Y2K, No PC. I have the Tfi pot style. I can toggle at will the Tfi. I can see the WB fatten up the mixture. Here we go with flow. Real simple. Say you read the Bernoulli principal about pressure on top of the gas in the float bowl. Someone, not me, but someone say it is not vacuum, but air pushing the gas out of the jet is that effect on top of the gas in the carb bowl.
Say we use liquid as air so you can see the effect. I'm going to use this guy's Bernoulli principal his way. We have a coffee cup with a leak at the bottom side. If we WOT the throttle and really Bernoulli effect the top of the fluid in the carb bowl, but for argument sake, we use the hole in the coffee cup. Now, in theory, would not that air out that hole in the coffee cup really blow a stream of air or say we fill the liquid up and push down on the liquid, send that stream across the room at the top of the cough-cough... Are we not seeing a whole bunch of air now?
Yes, or NO?
____________
E-tard
|
01smokes
Needs a job
Posts: 2243
|
posted April 26, 2010 07:43 PM
the 725cc injectors on E85 WILL do well over 400HP
____________
PayPal, vigilart22@yahoo.com
Email, artvgl@yahoo.com
|
wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
|
posted April 26, 2010 07:57 PM
quote:
quote:
I wont quit , but the vacuum will be so low at WOT that there wont be any flow. it wont change the the total airflow . This really is simple , and even you should be able to figure it out HUB.
Y2K, No PC. I have the Tfi pot style. I can toggle at will the Tfi. I can see the WB fatten up the mixture. Here we go with flow. Real simple. Say you read the Bernoulli principal about pressure on top of the gas in the float bowl. Someone, not me, but someone say it is not vacuum, but air pushing the gas out of the jet is that effect on top of the gas in the carb bowl.
Say we use liquid as air so you can see the effect. I'm going to use this guy's Bernoulli principal his way. We have a coffee cup with a leak at the bottom side. If we WOT the throttle and really Bernoulli effect the top of the fluid in the carb bowl, but for argument sake, we use the hole in the coffee cup. Now, in theory, would not that air out that hole in the coffee cup really blow a stream of air or say we fill the liquid up and push down on the liquid, send that stream across the room at the top of the cough-cough... Are we not seeing a whole bunch of air now?
Yes, or NO?
I was wrong , Hub , you cant figure it out .....
were you home schooled ?
Roy
|
Ozonkiller
Expert Class
Posts: 350
|
posted April 26, 2010 09:19 PM
What is the rating of the '06-'07 injectors and the '08 and up injectors?
|
01smokes
Needs a job
Posts: 2243
|
posted April 26, 2010 10:02 PM
quote:
What is the rating of the '06-'07 injectors and the '08 and up injectors?
06 -07 has 330s and 08-10 has 440 i think
____________
PayPal, vigilart22@yahoo.com
Email, artvgl@yahoo.com
|
speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
|
posted April 27, 2010 12:35 AM
quote:
I was wrong , Hub , you cant figure it out .....Roy
As a matter of fact, that is what I told that guy at the light in my video. Should I believe someone is gonna tell me my bike is going to lean out with the flies out and did the bike take a shit? I guess I could not figure it out. Mine runs like stink and it's fat ass rich. Still runs fast ass rich without the air cleaner in it.
Where do these guys come up with these ideas if I apply my own idea and it pans out. Am I lucky or is there something behind door number tre.
And how is it I am asking two educated individuals a yes or no question and they have to be schooled or retrained to answer a yes or no and now back it up like the leaned out condition that was suppose to happen. Anyone retract their statement? I haven't yet.
The practical event was the pressure on top of the coffee cup. Say a wire leak for a spark goes to ground not the side electrode is do you agree electricity finds the shortest path? So, would not an open hole that never closes, would that not still pass air and since that is a source, would that not act as fast as electricity to fill that void faster than some heavy liquid?
I have so many simple yes or no's going and not a one wants to take a stab at the home schooler to correct his homework.
____________
E-tard
|
|
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC