dubious
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posted June 08, 2010 06:18 PM
what is the budget?
pick a HP figure, and size the injectors and turbo to suit.
lbs of fuel and CFM,
keep in mind, for the zx14 which doesn't have room for a intercooler, the pro's are using turbo's sized approx 50% larger than the bike really puts to the ground
The biggest boys are using GT40/ 35 hybrids, and GT35 for the stock wheelbase bikes.
My point in the end is a bike has very little weight to overcome compared to a car, and a bigger turbo spool time is negligable compared to over heating the intake charge from over running the compressor curve.
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gilberjj
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posted June 08, 2010 07:21 PM
quote:
what is the budget?
pick a HP figure, and size the injectors and turbo to suit.
lbs of fuel and CFM,
keep in mind, for the zx14 which doesn't have room for a intercooler, the pro's are using turbo's sized approx 50% larger than the bike really puts to the ground
The biggest boys are using GT40/ 35 hybrids, and GT35 for the stock wheelbase bikes.
My point in the end is a bike has very little weight to overcome compared to a car, and a bigger turbo spool time is negligable compared to over heating the intake charge from over running the compressor curve.
Here's what I'm thinking. I'm building a turbo kit that will be easy to maintain, and on a shoestring budget. Generally those 2 don't go together, but I'm taking a lot of time and talking to the right people. I already have a tuner in mind to tune the bike once it's running. He has several 500 hp busas, suzuki gs, and old kz's under his belt. I believe his track record speaks for itself. Here's the build I'm planning....
16g turbo
cycle logic partial turbo kit
rising rate fuel pressure regulator
internally gated turbo (for now), single 10 psi max
pc ignition module
cycle logic single stage lock-up
aem dry flow air filter
This is a drag only bike. I was going to do a big dollar fuel system to run on e85, but for my goals, I don't think larger injectors will be needed. If it was going to be a street bike I would plunk down the money for it, but it just isn't practical for my needs. I'll just use c16, or a similar race fuel and enjoy racing.
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dubious
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posted June 08, 2010 08:03 PM
Understood.
Not aware what IHI the Cyclelogic uses. I haven't bothered to look.
I would highly caution the use of a rising rate (6:1 or 7:1 whatever) vs 1:1 regulator.
Aeromotive 1;1 can be had for about $150. rising rates BEGI $300
Bosch 95 lb injectors: ~$459
http://www.schnitzracingstore.com/catalogs/catalog.asp?prodid=5125534&showprevnext=1
for $300 more you will have a much more reliable set up.
All of the 10 lb internal wg I have seen or heard of creep, that with the heat the Cyclelogic turbo makes at anything over 12 psi has been killing motors. even on c12.
Of course you could get lucky and have no problems at all, but only a few seem to have had good luck with the boost creep, stock injectors, rising rate regulator, and stock compression on the cycle logic.
The stock injectors are done around 330 hp at 100 psi fuel pressure
static fp at 42 psi plus 7psi for every psi boost = 112 psi 6:1 will equal 102 PSI Fuel pressure.
the stock injectors don't operate so well or accurate at those pressures.
Big injectors and 1:1 is much safer set up, with room to grow later too.
the bigger turbo's are smoother coming on boost and more predictable to launch.
They still come on hard but don't have the hit then sign off, they are more linear.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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Shane661
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posted June 09, 2010 06:57 AM
Gilber,
Are you saying that 10 psi is what the internal wastegate is set to? If so, I would suggest a weaker wastegate setup (if that is possible with the internal setup? I believe you can also convert to an external wastegate in some cases), and at least a two-stage boost controller.
I am not very familair with internal wastegates. We were using an external wastegate with an MSBC boost controller on Racheal's Busa.
10 psi is a lot to run all of the time, imo. I think you will find that the power at 6-8 psi will suit your needs for quite some time.
Shane
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Shane661
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posted June 09, 2010 07:23 AM
One other thing I find interesting is that Cycle Logic says the turbo is capable of 400 hp. I have not seen that advertised for any IHI turbo??
I think there are things you can do to help the heat issue, but you need to move X amount of air in order to make X amount of hp. What is the true capability of a VF-22 or VF-34? Or even the 16G?
Shane
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gilberjj
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posted June 09, 2010 10:44 AM
All those turbos far surpass my needs, but as lyle was saying, without an intercooler, it is impossible to push the turbos to their potential on a bike. Past a certain point, they begin to create a tremendous amount of heat. This can be cured with a simple meth/water injection in the charge pipe (which is actually great for your motor), but I don't really want to get into that right now.
As far as the wastegate goes, the 16g I'm looking at is going to need some work before it ever goes on the bike. The internal port is laughably small. I will port it to allow the wastegate flapper to just barely cover the port. When boosting small amounts, the wastegate has to act fast, and be able to bypass a lot of exhaust. I'm sure I'll have to either get a custom spring, or work some sort of magic in that arena too..... For now it is all speculation, I'll know more in time.
By the way, on a car, you can just about take the cfm rating and say that is the amount of hp it will make. With these bikes engines, and how efficient they are, I would say that with the proper cooling, the 16g would make 500 whp. Take that for what it's worth though, I've never built a turbo bike, or ridden one. I know the gt35 is a very popular turbo on bikes, and many have been around 600 whp with those. After 450whp though, I believe 99% of the people building turbo bikes are number chasing. Yancy's bud bike set the long time standing mile record on about 450whp. I will try out 250-260 first and I'm sure I'll all sorts of fun gremlins. As long as Lyle doesn't continue to jynx me, hopefully I will catch all the bad stuff before it grenades my motor.
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dubious
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posted June 09, 2010 04:42 PM
Contrary, I really not trying to jinx. Trying to help.  injectors are allot cheaper than pistons in the end.
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natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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gilberjj
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posted June 09, 2010 05:59 PM
quote:
Contrary, I really not trying to jinx. Trying to help. injectors are allot cheaper than pistons in the end.
Has anyone ever tried 2 sets of stock injectors?
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gilberjj
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posted June 10, 2010 03:36 PM
Just got the kit.... all I have to say is, WOW! I'm REALLY impressed. It would cost WAY over $500 to manufacture this stuff yourself, and that's providing you are a master welder! I can't believe this deal. I'll snap some pics!
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gilberjj
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posted June 10, 2010 04:51 PM
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boostphreak
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posted June 11, 2010 04:25 PM
the charge tube you will have to modify or your ram air cover wont lay down flat. and for oiling I tapped my pan above the oil sensor sending unit and it works great. I wouldnt use the banjo fitting for the return cause it puts it all too low and easy to hit. .
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1badvespa1400cc
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posted June 12, 2010 08:00 AM
 Edited By: 1badvespa1400cc on 12 Jun 2010 16:01
I got the same kit but i'm using a external fuel pump with a tank plate and regulator,bigger oil pump also!!!!also a tial bov and different exhaust.
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boostphreak
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posted June 12, 2010 10:01 AM
yeah , Iam running a 033 pump, billit fuel rail and an fmu. I just finished building the motor and I went with the muzzy oil pump cover and higher psi oil valve. I also made a flat pan so had to go with dump pipe and external wastegate. with the internal gate at 5psi it would creep to 7psi. have you mapped you bike yet? what kind of numbers are you getting?
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Shane661
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posted June 12, 2010 10:11 AM
quote:
yeah , Iam running a 033 pump, billit fuel rail and an fmu. I just finished building the motor and I went with the muzzy oil pump cover and higher psi oil valve. I also made a flat pan so had to go with dump pipe and external wastegate. with the internal gate at 5psi it would creep to 7psi. have you mapped you bike yet? what kind of numbers are you getting?
Which turbo did you use, exactly?
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01smokes
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posted June 12, 2010 10:32 AM
my fuel system is a baller one and thats why MY bike is still ALIVE, its been on 330hp for over 1000 miles now and it hasent missed a beat and i beat on this bike when i ride it its not a Sunday rider ether its not a daily but i do ride it a few times a week. E85 FTW if any of you guys are planning on doing it build the fuel system HUGE the 725cc injectors are good for about 330hp on E85 thats is at a 42psi of fuel pressure NOT rising 1:1 for boost
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Shane661
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posted June 12, 2010 10:36 AM
quote:
E85 FTW if any of you guys are planning on doing it build the fuel system HUGE the 725cc injectors are good for about 330hp on E85 thats is at a 42psi of fuel pressure NOT rising 1:1 for boost
Are you running at one boost level all of the time, then? Otherwise, how are you adding fuel when you increase the boost?
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01smokes
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posted June 12, 2010 11:59 AM
quote:
quote:
E85 FTW if any of you guys are planning on doing it build the fuel system HUGE the 725cc injectors are good for about 330hp on E85 thats is at a 42psi of fuel pressure NOT rising 1:1 for boost
Are you running at one boost level all of the time, then? Otherwise, how are you adding fuel when you increase the boost?
i have 2 tunes for the bike a 7 pound 258hp tune and a 12 pound 330hp tune i just switch the tunes with the pcIII when i want to turn it down and turn the boost controller down, but i have no reason to turn it down its on E85 ether way so might as well run big boost all the time i figured
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01smokes
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posted June 12, 2010 12:02 PM
when we were tuning the bike it had a stumble when the fuel would start to rise the injectors were just to big to tune around that, so what we did was just run it static and run the duty cycle up on the injectors. Im sure if i needed more power i could just up the fuel pressure to say 50psi and turn the numbers down on the pcIII
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gilberjj
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posted June 12, 2010 02:27 PM
quote:
when we were tuning the bike it had a stumble when the fuel would start to rise the injectors were just to big to tune around that, so what we did was just run it static and run the duty cycle up on the injectors. Im sure if i needed more power i could just up the fuel pressure to say 50psi and turn the numbers down on the pcIII
What is your current injector cycle duty on e85 with the 725s?
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01smokes
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posted June 12, 2010 03:48 PM
quote:
quote:
when we were tuning the bike it had a stumble when the fuel would start to rise the injectors were just to big to tune around that, so what we did was just run it static and run the duty cycle up on the injectors. Im sure if i needed more power i could just up the fuel pressure to say 50psi and turn the numbers down on the pcIII
What is your current injector cycle duty on e85 with the 725s?
94-95% it has ALOT left in it with more fuel pressure, it was just easier to tune it with less pressure and run the duty cycle up of the injectors, with 80psi of fuel i bet it will hold WAY over 400hp like close to 430 or so ,these injectors can run at 100% 100psi so who knows how much power you can make with them im sure well over 500hp if you turn the pressure way up, but i would need a motor to run anymore power.
I'm still on a STONE STOCK motor
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boostphreak
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posted June 12, 2010 09:49 PM
I agree that the fuel system is the key to keeping one alive. but I couldnt afford everything at once, like new injectors, and I ride mine far enough away from the house that I have to run pump gas. I am planning on upgrading my injectors soon but as it is right now with stock injectors, an fmu, and pump gas mine made 258 hp at 5psi on a bone stock motor. never had any problems. only reason I took it apart was to build a turbo motor and change to external wastegate. that way I can play with more boost
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gilberjj
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posted June 14, 2010 06:05 PM
Edited By: gilberjj on 15 Jun 2010 02:16
...
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gilberjj
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posted June 14, 2010 06:09 PM
Edited By: gilberjj on 15 Jun 2010 02:17
Does anyone know of a cheap/easy way to do boost by gear? I came across this, but it's still pricey at over $500. It's a boost gauge/controller in one, and can do many other things. I know a lot of the turbo bikes run the ams stuff, but that is WAY over priced imo.
http://www.boostcontroller.com/index.php?item=982&ret=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.boostcontroller.com%2Findex.php%3Fpage%3D1%26category%3D112
Now standard with 60psi max boost operating pressure!
e-Boost2 is a complete Boost Management System. With market-leading features and and state-of-the-art software, e-Boost2 is the one accessory all owners of turbocharged cars should have! Easy to use, yet sophisticated and technologically advanced, the e-Boost2 is equally at home in a street-going vehicle as it is in a top-level racecar.
e-Boost2 allows the user to control, monitor, map and compensate boost. But e-Boost2 is a lot more than just a boost controller – it can also control water spray, methanol or nitrous injection, manage shift/warning lights and read/monitor RPM. While e-Boost2 is fitted with a state-of-the art software, it has been designed to be easy and logical to use.
Boost Levels: up to 6 levels of boost.
Boost on Demand: provides instant overtaking power at your fingertips
Gear-based Mapping: set a different boost for each gear!
Adjustable Boost Levels: program boost against TIME or RPM.
Aux Output: fully programmable; controls water spray, methanol or nitrous injection.
RPM Compensation: eliminates boost drop-off at high RPM.
Peak Hold/Max Boost Recall: monitors boost and RPM.
Gate Pressure: eliminates wastegate creep.
Overboost Shutdown: provides added protection for your engine.
Display: programmable, can be configured to KPA, Bar or PSI.
Auto Dimming: with backlit buttons for hassle free navigation.
Optional Accessories: Dash and roll cage mounting kits, shift/warning lights and a full range of spares.
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Shane661
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posted June 15, 2010 05:36 AM
With the low boost you are going to run you could use an AMS-500 two-stage controller. It is $400.
We have an MSBC-1 on the Busa. It is $695.
You can also contact Boost By Smith. He makes some economical solutions as well.
Shane
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1badvespa1400cc
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posted June 15, 2010 06:15 AM
My buddy is running BoostBySmith on his 05 1k i'm just keeping mine at 5lbs. until I get more work done to the motor in 5 month's i'm just going to keep the boost low and then turn it up a little when I get the motor work done.
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