Phantom13
Zone Head
Posts: 736
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posted February 09, 2010 07:10 PM
 Edited By: Phantom13 on 10 Feb 2010 03:48
Smokin, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. You can't compare the demands of an 8-9 second 160mph run on a prepped surface to a 20-22 second 200-220mph run on normal pavement.
Can't rob peter to pay paul like in the 1/4. By this I mean gearing short to make up for low power, running a long arm to negate wheelies, running a fat shinko at 15psi to negate wheelspin, spraying/boosting big (you can get away with a lot more due to the short duration)... And of course, the insignificant aerodynamic aspect when you take into consideration you're only at relevant speed for about 1-2 seconds... Not enough time for a poor aero package to make a dent in your performance.
In LSR, you run short wheelbase, tall street tires at normal pressure, tall gearing. You need to trade off boost/ spray amount for duration in order to keep the engine alive. The wrong tuck can rob you 2-5mph (equivilant to 6-15rwhp) EASILY. When I say "wrong tuck", I'm talking body positioning that only needs to be a mere inch in the wrong place. Yes, it's that crucial.
On top of that, you're trying to keep this tuck at speeds where your mind is begining to freak out and go into survival mode.
You see guys practice their perfect tucks in the garage or on the highway at 120mph.... And those same guys look nothing like they practiced when they click into 6th and the bike is still pulling violently.
Your head moves up above the windscreen to enhance far sight vision, your knees and elbows begin to protrude out into the wind as you begin to tense up from the fear and you forget about aerodynamics, your throttle hand can even unconciously back out slightly....and you'll never know it unless you check the datalogger.
A lot changes around 200mph... 1000 passes at 160mph can not even begin to prepare you for these kind of speeds. That extra 40mph may not seem like much, but once you do it.. You see that it's another world entirely.
I've done the 1/4... It's fun, but not even close to the intensity of the mile. When you're shutting down and feeling the rush... We're just getting started with the adrenaline dump lasting for another 11-13 seconds.It increases exponentially with the speed and the wind pushing you around like a rag doll.. Sometimes coming through the lights leaning over to one side at 200mph as your rear tire starts wobbling, as you can barely see ahead of you due to the constraints of your tuck and/or the wind shaking your helmet like a paint mixer at home depot.
Then you have the shutdown... That's scary in itself too. Most accidents occur during the shutdown.
Unless you're at the upper echelon in drag racing, you'll never see these speeds (and even then it's still only for a couple seconds tops) so it's really easy to "think" there's not much more to it than what works at moderate speeds commonly seen in the 1/4. But as anyone who's made the switch will tell you, everything is magnified and tiny details become areas of high significance.
Would you believe it if I told you that something as small as bar ends or hand levers make a difference? They do.. And not just because of aerodynamics either....
Don't get me wrong, the 1/4 is tough and I know how hard you guys struggle with consistancy, set-up, dialing in, and shaving hundreths here and there. Just saying... There a lot more to LSR than you may think.
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
   
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted February 09, 2010 08:33 PM
Edited By: smokinZX14 on 10 Feb 2010 04:36
quote:
Smokin, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. You can't compare the demands of an 8-9 second 160mph run on a prepped surface to a 20-22 second 200-220mph run on normal pavement.
Can't rob peter to pay paul like in the 1/4. By this I mean gearing short to make up for low power, running a long arm to negate wheelies, running a fat shinko at 15psi to negate wheelspin, spraying/boosting big (you can get away with a lot more due to the short duration)... And of course, the insignificant aerodynamic aspect when you take into consideration you're only at relevant speed for about 1-2 seconds... Not enough time for a poor aero package to make a dent in your performance.
In LSR, you run short wheelbase, tall street tires at normal pressure, tall gearing. You need to trade off boost/ spray amount for duration in order to keep the engine alive. The wrong tuck can rob you 2-5mph (equivilant to 6-15rwhp) EASILY. When I say "wrong tuck", I'm talking body positioning that only needs to be a mere inch in the wrong place. Yes, it's that crucial.
On top of that, you're trying to keep this tuck at speeds where your mind is begining to freak out and go into survival mode.
You see guys practice their perfect tucks in the garage or on the highway at 120mph.... And those same guys look nothing like they practiced when they click into 6th and the bike is still pulling violently.
Your head moves up above the windscreen to enhance far sight vision, your knees and elbows begin to protrude out into the wind as you begin to tense up from the fear and you forget about aerodynamics, your throttle hand can even unconciously back out slightly....and you'll never know it unless you check the datalogger.
A lot changes around 200mph... 1000 passes at 160mph can not even begin to prepare you for these kind of speeds. That extra 40mph may not seem like much, but once you do it.. You see that it's another world entirely.
I've done the 1/4... It's fun, but not even close to the intensity of the mile. When you're shutting down and feeling the rush... We're just getting started with the adrenaline dump lasting for another 11-13 seconds.It increases exponentially with the speed and the wind pushing you around like a rag doll.. Sometimes coming through the lights leaning over to one side at 200mph as your rear tire starts wobbling as you can barely see ahead of you due to the constraints of your tuck and/or the wind shaking your helmet like a paint mixer at home depot.
Then you have the shutdown... That's scary in itself too. Most accidents occur during the shutdown.
Unless you're at the upper echelon in drag racing, you'll never see these speeds so it's really easy to "think" there's not much more to it than what works at moderate speeds commonly seen in the 1/4. But as anyone who's made the switch will tell you, everything is magnified and tiny details become areas of high significance.
Would you believe it if I told you that something as small as bar ends or hand levers make a difference? They do.. And not just because of aerodynamics either....
Don't get me wrong, the 1/4 is tough and I know how hard you guys struggle with consistancy, set-up, dialing in, and shaving hundreths here and there. Just saying... There a lot more to LSR than you may think.
Not enough time for a poor aero package to make a dent in your performance.
You are wrong .. Bad tuck in the 1/4 mile and will kill 2 to 3 mph in the 1/4 mile .. aero
are very important in drag racing..
..................................................................................................................................................................
In LSR, you run short wheelbase, tall street tires at normal pressure, tall gearing.
Right now i'm running stock wheel base , street tire and normal pressure and tall gearing 17/39 ..
......................................................................................................................................................................
On top of that, you're trying to keep this tuck at speeds where your mind is begining to freak out and go into survival mode.
Been there done that ..Try turbo bikes and big spray... Trust me you will freak out when the bike lifts the tire at 1000 feet @ 180
...................................................................................................................................................................
Sometimes coming through the lights leaning over to one side at 200mph as your rear tire starts wobbling as you can barely see ahead of you due to the constraints of your tuck and/or the wind shaking your helmet like a paint mixer at home depot.
Been there more than once ...At times i had to pray i was still on the track ...
....................................................................................................................................................................
Then you have the shutdown... That's scary in itself too. Most accidents occur during the shutdown.
Most crashes on the drag strip are on the shut down ...And yes i find shutting down the most scrary ....
................................................................................................................................................................
Your head moves up above the windscreen to enhance far sight vision, your knees and elbows begin to protrude out into the wind as you begin to tense up from the fear and you forget about aerodynamics, your throttle hand can even unconciously back out slightly....and you'll never know it unless you check the datalogger.
Same thing happens in drag racing and i can show you on video ...I don't need a data logger to see it , i can see it in the ET and MPH .... It's very clear ...
....................................................................................................................................................................
I have done a lot of top end racing in my day and it was fun, but today i'll stick to drag racing .
PH i have watched alot of the mile videos and it is clear to me that Sal is at the top of his game .. I also noticed he is a born drag racer , He leaves like his on a drag strip where most all the others take off like they are going to the store to pick up some beer ..
It's very clear to me why Sal is so much quicker than most on the very same bike ..The man has skills ... Some of you LSR guys would learn alot spending time at the drag strip ... I could teach you some things in one day that would have you pick up 3 to 5 MPH .. I have done this for many guys having problems with MPH ...This would also help them with LSR stuff ... Same could be said about Sal teaching guys how to tuck in the 1/4 mile ... They would also pick up MPH .. Drag racing and LSR are more alike that one would think.. I can say that because i have done both ..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted February 09, 2010 08:40 PM
quote:
There a lot more to LSR than you may think.
its just like anything else ..the man with the most money and the biggest HP gets the win .. remember Budweiser's busa .. Budweiser sells beer .. well if you want to call it beer
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted February 10, 2010 02:30 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 10 Feb 2010 12:35
quote:
You can't compare the demands of an 8-9 second 160mph run on a prepped surface to a 20-22 second 200-220mph run on normal pavement.
I think the best way to settle this is at the dragstrip. 
I would bet that if you take a talented drag racer, and a talented LSR-only racer, you will find that the drag racer does much better at LSR initially than the LSR racer does at drag racing. Especially on a short bike.
The reason I say this is that a good drag racer already grasps the fundamentals of shift points, body position, tuck, etc.. Land speed racers, on the other hand, are not really focused on clutch control and launch technique. These two things are the cornerstone of dragracing and take years to master. In drag racing a lot of things happen very quickly, there is no chance to recover further down the track.
In addition, a dragstrip timeslip breaks down the run very clearly and you can literally chase your ET to the thousandths of a second. It took me months to shave just .04 seconds off of my ET. The level of consistency required in competitive dragracing exceeds the demands of LSR to some extent. This is easily verified by examining LSR run logs.
That's my .02.
Shane
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted February 10, 2010 02:32 AM
quote:
its just like anything else ..the man with the most money and the biggest HP gets the win .. remember Budweiser's busa .. Budweiser sells beer .. well if you want to call it beer
The "Bud" bike is a privately built and owned machine. Budweiser did not pay for it.
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Phantom13
Zone Head
Posts: 736
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posted February 10, 2010 10:09 AM
quote:
quote:
You can't compare the demands of an 8-9 second 160mph run on a prepped surface to a 20-22 second 200-220mph run on normal pavement.
I think the best way to settle this is at the dragstrip.
I would bet that if you take a talented drag racer, and a talented LSR-only racer, you will find that the drag racer does much better at LSR initially than the LSR racer does at drag racing. Especially on a short bike.
The reason I say this is that a good drag racer already grasps the fundamentals of shift points, body position, tuck, etc.. Land speed racers, on the other hand, are not really focused on clutch control and launch technique. These two things are the cornerstone of dragracing and take years to master. In drag racing a lot of things happen very quickly, there is no chance to recover further down the track.
In addition, a dragstrip timeslip breaks down the run very clearly and you can literally chase your ET to the thousandths of a second. It took me months to shave just .04 seconds off of my ET. The level of consistency required in competitive dragracing exceeds the demands of LSR to some extent. This is easily verified by examining LSR run logs.
That's my .02.
Shane
Agreed, well said. I guess the exception to the rule would be us 9/10ths guys. We started out as land speed drag racers... Learning both diciplines and putting equal emphasis on both has definately made all the difference.
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
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davej
Expert Class
Posts: 451
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posted February 10, 2010 10:31 AM
Smoking14 can kick pretty much anyone's 6. If he were to endorsed by a big company, he would rule the roost.
____________
Triumph guy
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted February 10, 2010 10:56 AM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 10 Feb 2010 19:02
quote:
quote:
its just like anything else ..the man with the most money and the biggest HP gets the win .. remember Budweiser's busa .. Budweiser sells beer .. well if you want to call it beer
The "Bud" bike is a privately built and owned machine. Budweiser did not pay for it.
bull . they payed for it just like the boat and cars .. you can call them a sponsor .. but Budweiser's name and colors are on those toys for a reason ..and Budweiser even ran commercials
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL4a5Xdv3lE
he says he owns it too .. but in the same breather he's part of team budweiser
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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rtbain
Expert Class
old, fat and slow
Posts: 244
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posted February 10, 2010 11:11 AM
quote:
I think the best way to settle this is at the dragstrip.
I would bet that if you take a talented drag racer, and a talented LSR-only racer, you will find that the drag racer does much better at LSR initially than the LSR racer does at drag racing. Especially on a short bike.
-snip-
That's my .02.
Shane
There are many forms of motorcycle competition. Drag, LSR, roadracing, dirt track, motocross, trails, speedway, you get the idea. A encompass a special skill set and someone skilled at one form of racing would likely be outclassed by a rider well versed in that aspect of the sport.
When I was roadracing there were many, me included, who thought drag racing was for the ‘less talented’ riders. When I went drag racing to improve my starts I was handed my butt in a sling. I met a guy at the track and encouraged him to try road racing. He was pumped.
He figured that if he could smoke me at the drag strip he would kill me on a roadrace course. And he did beat me, to the first turn. I waved goodbye as I passed him on the outside.
There is no form of racing that encompasses all skills needed in every discipline. The only way to really appreciate a different facet of motorcycling is to try it for yourself.
No matter the venue, the b.s. stops when the green flag drops.
____________
Randy
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted February 10, 2010 11:14 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 10 Feb 2010 19:15
quote:
quote:
quote:
its just like anything else ..the man with the most money and the biggest HP gets the win .. remember Budweiser's busa .. Budweiser sells beer .. well if you want to call it beer
The "Bud" bike is a privately built and owned machine. Budweiser did not pay for it.
bull . they payed for it just like the boat and cars .. you can call them a sponsor .. but Budweiser's name and colors are on those toys for a reason ..and Budweiser even ran commercials
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL4a5Xdv3lE
he says he owns it too .. but in the same breather he's part of team budweiser
That is not the "Bud" bike I was referring to. I was talking about Rich Yancy's 260 mph LSR/Streetbike:
http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/suzuki/one-fast-busa-16429.html
That is not a Bud sponsored machine. However, in all forms of motorsports...Money Is King.
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
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posted February 10, 2010 11:46 AM
i'll bet theres some budweiser money and earnhart money in that yancy bike .. in fact to copy the car ..somebody had to get nascar approval
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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davej
Expert Class
Posts: 451
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posted February 10, 2010 12:23 PM
Strange you would mention the Bud boat. Back in the early 70's it was a dry block old aircraft motor that needed a sleeve. The same engine that powered the PT boats. The Allison V-12. Most likely before most of you were born.
____________
Triumph guy
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted February 10, 2010 12:29 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 10 Feb 2010 20:33
quote:
i'll bet theres some budweiser money and earnhart money in that yancy bike .. in fact to copy the car ..somebody had to get nascar approval
Why don't you ask Rich yourself?
The cost to build that bike is probably significantly less than you are thinking. Rich builds the motors himself. There are a lot of privately funded bikes in LSR with more money invested.
It's funny to watch Rich show up to the track, unload the bike from his van by himself on a Sunday, and go 235 mph.
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1badzx12r
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posted February 10, 2010 12:44 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 10 Feb 2010 20:45
its not important to me . kinda like asking a dragracer if its stock .. of course.. it a is daily rider ...
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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KZScott
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high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted February 10, 2010 03:42 PM
quote:
It's funny to watch Rich show up to the track, unload the bike from his van by himself on a Sunday, and go 235 mph.
damn....not your typical sunday drive....
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted February 10, 2010 04:25 PM
quote:
quote:
It's funny to watch Rich show up to the track, unload the bike from his van by himself on a Sunday, and go 235 mph.
damn....not your typical sunday drive....
Yeah, and Rich is a big guy...like somewhere around 6' 5" tall.
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INTIMIDA2OR
Needs a life
RED rider!
Posts: 13081
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posted February 11, 2010 07:14 AM
quote:
quote:
i've seen several turbo bikes not make 200 mph .. i've also seen alot of big shot noz bikes not do it also ..so i guessing everybody was laughing at them ..
Well, it is kind of funny!
Lmao!
____________
'06 Passion Red ZX-14
*Lee*
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INTIMIDA2OR
Needs a life
RED rider!
Posts: 13081
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posted February 11, 2010 07:17 AM
quote:
quote:
I'm still trying to get it in my head that someone here with a zx14 can only run 169 in a mile .. How is that possible ?
i've seen a guy on a busa do 70 mph or around that at the tx mile twice ..
nothing surprizes me
 ... Well it was a boooza but... damn!! Wtf?
____________
'06 Passion Red ZX-14
*Lee*
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INTIMIDA2OR
Needs a life
RED rider!
Posts: 13081
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posted February 11, 2010 07:30 AM
quote:
Smokin, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. You can't compare the demands of an 8-9 second 160mph run on a prepped surface to a 20-22 second 200-220mph run on normal pavement.
Can't rob peter to pay paul like in the 1/4. By this I mean gearing short to make up for low power, running a long arm to negate wheelies, running a fat shinko at 15psi to negate wheelspin, spraying/boosting big (you can get away with a lot more due to the short duration)... And of course, the insignificant aerodynamic aspect when you take into consideration you're only at relevant speed for about 1-2 seconds... Not enough time for a poor aero package to make a dent in your performance.
In LSR, you run short wheelbase, tall street tires at normal pressure, tall gearing. You need to trade off boost/ spray amount for duration in order to keep the engine alive. The wrong tuck can rob you 2-5mph (equivilant to 6-15rwhp) EASILY. When I say "wrong tuck", I'm talking body positioning that only needs to be a mere inch in the wrong place. Yes, it's that crucial.
On top of that, you're trying to keep this tuck at speeds where your mind is begining to freak out and go into survival mode.
You see guys practice their perfect tucks in the garage or on the highway at 120mph.... And those same guys look nothing like they practiced when they click into 6th and the bike is still pulling violently.
Your head moves up above the windscreen to enhance far sight vision, your knees and elbows begin to protrude out into the wind as you begin to tense up from the fear and you forget about aerodynamics, your throttle hand can even unconciously back out slightly....and you'll never know it unless you check the datalogger.
A lot changes around 200mph... 1000 passes at 160mph can not even begin to prepare you for these kind of speeds. That extra 40mph may not seem like much, but once you do it.. You see that it's another world entirely.
I've done the 1/4... It's fun, but not even close to the intensity of the mile. When you're shutting down and feeling the rush... We're just getting started with the adrenaline dump lasting for another 11-13 seconds.It increases exponentially with the speed and the wind pushing you around like a rag doll.. Sometimes coming through the lights leaning over to one side at 200mph as your rear tire starts wobbling, as you can barely see ahead of you due to the constraints of your tuck and/or the wind shaking your helmet like a paint mixer at home depot.
Then you have the shutdown... That's scary in itself too. Most accidents occur during the shutdown.
Unless you're at the upper echelon in drag racing, you'll never see these speeds (and even then it's still only for a couple seconds tops) so it's really easy to "think" there's not much more to it than what works at moderate speeds commonly seen in the 1/4. But as anyone who's made the switch will tell you, everything is magnified and tiny details become areas of high significance.
Would you believe it if I told you that something as small as bar ends or hand levers make a difference? They do.. And not just because of aerodynamics either....
Don't get me wrong, the 1/4 is tough and I know how hard you guys struggle with consistancy, set-up, dialing in, and shaving hundreths here and there. Just saying... There a lot more to LSR than you may think.
Curious but... By looking at this 14 , would it be able to do 200 in the mile?
____________
'06 Passion Red ZX-14
*Lee*
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wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
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posted February 11, 2010 08:42 AM
quote:
Curious but... By looking at this 14 , would it be able to do 200 in the mile?
no.... stock motor , stock exhaust , running naked,,, maybe 175 ... super small rider with a cut down tank, maybe a little more
it took a 1530 stroker kit, racing header , PC3 and a tail wind to get 202mph at loring on my naked 14. and that bike only goes 190mph at maxton and miami ....
the only zx14 in the Naked 200 club as far as I know
Roy
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wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
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posted February 11, 2010 10:36 AM
from the loring event ...
all motor, gas class, 202 mph
Roy
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted February 11, 2010 11:33 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 11 Feb 2010 19:35
Here is another one we took at Loring, Roy. I can't wait to go back there! 
I have a 12 megapixel copy of this somewhere, and maybe some others? I'll let you know if I come across them.
Shane
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SteveWFL
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted February 11, 2010 11:44 AM
how fast did that vespa in the background run
____________
2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
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posted February 11, 2010 01:40 PM
28.6 actual, 30 indicated.
____________
Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted February 11, 2010 01:41 PM
quote:
28.6 actual, 30 indicated.
But the timing clocks said 31.6.
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