smokinZX14
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Posts: 10197
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posted December 10, 2009 10:46 AM
 Edited By: smokinZX14 on 10 Dec 2009 18:57
E85 dyno testing ...
Bikeland member Wrongway stopped by with his zx14 to do a little dyno testing today ...His zx14 has nothing but slip ons and a PVC .. First of 4 pulls were done with Pump gas and made an avg of 163 hp and 100 Foot pound TQ .. Air fuel was 13.0 to 12.9 with pump fuel ... We drained the tank and added the E85 , the first pass it made 165 but was very rich at the upper RPMs ( 10.0 @ 10,500 ) .. We leaned it up to look more like the pump gas map ( 12.9 to 12.8 from 8000 RPMs up) ... It made 168 HP and 103 TQ ...
The E85 made 5 HP and 3 TQ more than the pump gas .. TQ was better from 3000 to red line than the pump gas ...
Nothing was done to the bike other than mapping changes to switch from pump gas to E85 ..The New PCV holds two maps , one for pump gas and one for E85 ... If you want to switch back from E85 to pump gas all you have to do is flip the map switch on the PVC ... Simple very simple .. This is a great bag for the buck seeing that E85 is about 2.00 a gallon Vs MR9 at 120.00 for 5 gallons .. The power gain is very close between the two fuels making the E85 a better choice ..You don't need to drain the E85 out after use like the MR9 ..
With the stock exhaust with slipons the power falls off at 9500 and it falls off really bad .. With a header like Brocks Smeg the power holds a flat line till 10600... I'm thinking The E85 would make even more power had the bike had a full exhaust , Maybe another 2 to 3 HP above 9500 ... As soon as i get the time i will test the E85 in my bike Vs pump gas and see what the gains would be with a full system .. I allready have the PCV on my bike and i saved the Map we used on Wrongway bike so i will not have to buy anything to make the change to E85 .. My thinking is the E85 should be worth close to a tenth of a second and maybe 2 MPH over pump gas ...That would be about what i see using MR9 fuel for a lot less cost and work .. Win Win ...
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
  
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biggmoinc
Zone Head
Posts: 747
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posted December 10, 2009 11:33 AM
Damn, u got ur own dyno
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07 ZX14 bmc filter, muzzy m14, 16/44,66",auto shift, 6'3, 204lbs/1.54/3.99/6.03@120/7.8/9.32@147
biggmo@aol.com
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Nelson Taylor
Zone Head
Posts: 927
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posted December 10, 2009 11:48 AM
E85 would become real popular among the bike community is it provided that type of gain.
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Best #'s
1.54
4.03
6.02 @ 121mph
(Stock Wheelbase) 2006 ZX14
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Nbrion
Parking Attendant
Posts: 29
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posted December 10, 2009 12:09 PM
I wish it was available in my area!
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Jason Gillum
Novice Class
Posts: 52
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posted December 10, 2009 12:21 PM
Good info Smokin. Its always nice to go faster for cheap! I have heard that the XXX 118 fuel (spec fuel for AMA Super Sport) is very similar to E85. I wonder if anyone has tested this.+
Does the E85 smell like pump gas when you are on the dyno?
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Brock's Performance...
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Shane661
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posted December 10, 2009 12:37 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 10 Dec 2009 20:41
I too have been considering e85. MR9 is very expensive, and hard on the fuel system.
One other benefit of e85 is lower combustion temperatures.
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68gts2
Zone Head
hobbies ( Beating you !!! )
Posts: 927
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posted December 10, 2009 12:41 PM
dyno octane
What pump fuel do you prefer a bike have in it to adjust a map from base? The reason I ask is I filled it to the brim with supposed non-ethanol 93 for winter. Can the bikes pump be easily used to drain it if that's not what you wanted to dyno with?
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Chromed-out,in the dirt 08SE with all the good stuff!!!
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Bawls
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re-learning to ride
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posted December 10, 2009 01:11 PM
I can't afford mr9 so I run good ole 87 
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Best 60ft: 1.42
Best 1/8th: 5.97
Best 1/8th MPH: 119
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smokinZX14
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posted December 10, 2009 01:49 PM
quote:
What pump fuel do you prefer a bike have in it to adjust a map from base? The reason I ask is I filled it to the brim with supposed non-ethanol 93 for winter. Can the bikes pump be easily used to drain it if that's not what you wanted to dyno with?
I don't know what octane pump gas Wrongway had in the bike when he showed up here .. He will be along later i'm sure and we can ask him ... I use nothing but 87 in my zx14 if that helps you .... As far as draining the tank we used a hose and sucked it out ... On my bike i allways pull the tank off and remove the pump and dump the fuel out ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted December 10, 2009 01:55 PM
Edited By: smokinZX14 on 10 Dec 2009 22:14
quote:
Good info Smokin. Its always nice to go faster for cheap! I have heard that the XXX 118 fuel (spec fuel for AMA Super Sport) is very similar to E85. I wonder if anyone has tested this.+
Does the E85 smell like pump gas when you are on the dyno?
It doesn't have much smell at all ..It doesn't smell like pump gas.. It's very faint , nothing at all like a Drag Car on alky ...It doesn't burn your eyes or make you cough like alky motor .. Fact is i didn't notice any smell at all ..Pump gas will run you out of my shop but the E85 didn't ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted December 10, 2009 02:13 PM
Remember this test was done with the same bike same day all with in an hours time... 5 hp gain with no tricks ... I have talked to a guy with a zx10 that runs E85 and he loves it ... No mods to the bike other than the E85 and mapping and he picked up a full tenth over pump gas ...I didn't believe him when he told me that but after seeing first hand on my dyno i"m a believer ... Wrongway has been running E85 for some time with zero problems as well as the zx10 guy .. I'm going to try it in my bike soon ... Track testing should show us what the dyno has already shown us .. More power, better ETs and more MPH ..
Only problem i see is that we don't have many places close to me in FL that sells E85 ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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Shane661
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posted December 10, 2009 02:17 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 10 Dec 2009 22:18
Lee, I have mentioned this before...and perhaps it is not a big concern..
E85 is electrically conductive (unlike gasoline)...and the fuel pump has exposed wiring..
Any thoughts on that?
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smokinZX14
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Posts: 10197
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posted December 10, 2009 02:22 PM
Edited By: smokinZX14 on 10 Dec 2009 22:23
quote:
I too have been considering e85. MR9 is very expensive, and hard on the fuel system.
One other benefit of e85 is lower combustion temperatures.
Funny you say that , wrong way said you could run it richer and the motor never gets hot like it does on pump gas .. Shane i think you should give it a try ... I have the map but it's for flys in place with a 5th gear TRE so you would have to put it on the dyno and add some fuel for flys out .. But the top part of the Map would be fine ... It should be fine as is for drag racing but may need a little tunning for street riding with flys out ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
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posted December 10, 2009 02:26 PM
quote:
Remember this test was done with the same bike same day all with in an hours time... 5 hp gain with no tricks ... I have talked to a guy with a zx10 that runs E85 and he loves it ... No mods to the bike other than the E85 and mapping and he picked up a full tenth over pump gas ...I didn't believe him when he told me that but after seeing first hand on my dyno i"m a believer ... Wrongway has been running E85 for some time with zero problems as well as the zx10 guy .. I'm going to try it in my bike soon ... Track testing should show us what the dyno has already shown us .. More power, better ETs and more MPH ..
Only problem i see is that we don't have many places close to me in FL that sells E85 ..
look at this site for gas stations nationwide... http://e85prices.com/florida.html
Roy
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Shane661
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posted December 10, 2009 02:26 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 10 Dec 2009 22:27
The nearest e85 place is about 50 miles from me. Perhaps I will pick some up; I think I'd still rather use an external inline pump. I think a starting place is around +30-35 over pump fuel on the PC cells?
Also, I believe that winter and summer E85 are different specs?
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smokinZX14
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posted December 10, 2009 02:30 PM
quote:
Lee, I have mentioned this before...and perhaps it is not a big concern..
E85 is electrically conductive (unlike gasoline)...and the fuel pump has exposed wiring..
Any thoughts on that?
Shane i don't know anything about that ...All i can say is it didn't blow up and no fires ..I'm pretty sure i would have been the first one to notice ..lol.. all joking aside I haven't heard of this happening to anyone either ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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smokinZX14
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Posts: 10197
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posted December 10, 2009 02:34 PM
quote:
The nearest e85 place is about 50 miles from me. Perhaps I will pick some up; I think I'd still rather use an external inline pump. I think a starting place is around +30-35 over pump fuel on the PC cells?
Also, I believe that winter and summer E85 are different specs?
You can ask wrongway but the map was 40% more in the lower points and 27% to 35 % on the top of the map ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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Shane661
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posted December 10, 2009 02:45 PM
I like the fact that it is "clean" stuff, and won't gum everything up like MR9...plus only 10% of the cost. 
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wrongway
Pro
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posted December 10, 2009 02:48 PM
quote:
quote:
The nearest e85 place is about 50 miles from me. Perhaps I will pick some up; I think I'd still rather use an external inline pump. I think a starting place is around +30-35 over pump fuel on the PC cells?
Also, I believe that winter and summer E85 are different specs?
You can ask wrongway but the map was 40% more in the lower points and 27% to 35 % on the top of the map ..
But I think i had -10 % on the top end of the race bike to get the same AFR .... so 27% would be 37 more in those cells..... adding 40 to each cell would be safe with e85. winter blend in northern states would be e70 with octane of 104. summer blend is e85 with an octane of 112.
Roy
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1badzx12r
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posted December 10, 2009 03:21 PM
e85 down fall is low shelf life 60 days.. and phase separation lost octane.. don't believe me google it .. alcohol adsorbs water
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oldkawboy
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posted December 10, 2009 03:51 PM
Hey Roy,
You running E85 in the Camaro?
Good write up Lee, thanks for the info.
Also, I think Shane has brought up a good point about the fuel pumps exposed wiring.
Dan
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wrongway
Pro
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posted December 10, 2009 04:01 PM
quote:
Hey Roy,
You running E85 in the Camaro?
Good write up Lee, thanks for the info.
Also, I think Shane has brought up a good point about the fuel pumps exposed wiring.
Dan
not yet... i think i need to do some testing first.. I have a methanol carb but I need to make sure that it is compatable with ethanol. I had heard that some coatings for methanol are not compatable with ethanol. the rest of the fuel system should be fine.
Roy
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icarus
Expert Class
Posts: 344
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posted December 10, 2009 04:03 PM
Smokin, wrongway, thanks for going to the time and expense to provide this information.
It has me wondering what it would do in my bike now that I put a Ti-Winder on it.
Later...
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8.820 @ 161.05
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wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
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posted December 10, 2009 04:14 PM
quote:
e85 down fall is low shelf life 60 days.. and phase separation lost octane.. don't believe me google it .. alcohol adsorbs water
as always , there is some truth in most statements. I am not sure on shelf life, but pahse seperation occurs when there is enough water to combine with the ethanol to sperate from the gasoline. If you look at the procedures to test for percentage of gasoline, it take about the same amount of water and ethanol to do that. So a 10% ethanol mixture takes very little water for the phase seperation to occur . But e85 would take almost 50% water for this to happen.
but this is assuming that you do not store the fuel in a sealed container and it is exposed to air ... in a sealed container you would not be picking up moisture form the air...' And like any fuel a half empty fuel tank allows plenty of room for humid air to expose fuel to moisture.
'Since I have local gas stations selling e85 , I dont have to worry too much about storing it.. But there are plenty of car racers that buy methanol in 55 gallon drums and store it .
Roy
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eklipse636
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ZX-14
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posted December 10, 2009 04:45 PM
i have to be the dummy and ask, but can you run the e85 ands ee any gains without remapping??
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Best: 60ft 1.351 1/8 5.68 mph 123.98 1/4
8.89 mph 151.32
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