johnbull
Expert Class
Posts: 314
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posted November 17, 2009 09:53 AM
Fuel octane?????
As most of you know, I'm running a ZX14 motor in my single seater race car. I am running an M14 exhaust, PCV, ported head & between 13.0 to 13.5 compression ratio.
We are mainly running on circuits which means that the engine is constantly at high revs for 10 to 15 minute races. What octane fuel would you guys suggest???? At the moment I am using Sunoco 109 octane oxygenated race fuel, could it be possible that this would loose me any power due to the very high octane???
Also I am running a target AFR on the PCV of 12.8, I could probably go up to about 13.5 AFR with 109 octane fuel correct???
Would appreciate any input.
____________
John Bul Racing. Malta.
  
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KZScott
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high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted November 17, 2009 10:14 AM
keep it rich and try some VP MR9 if you dont mind buying race fuel
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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gilberjj
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posted November 17, 2009 11:30 AM
quote:
keep it rich and try some VP MR9 if you dont mind buying race fuel
would mr9 work with that high of compression?
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Ozonkiller
Expert Class
Posts: 350
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posted November 17, 2009 09:06 PM
quote:
quote:
keep it rich and try some VP MR9 if you dont mind buying race fuel
would mr9 work with that high of compression?
I run MR11 on 13.5:1 with no issues
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KZScott
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posted November 17, 2009 09:29 PM
well ive ran 87 octane on 13.5:1 with 5 degrees advanced in my 12. pistons and combustion chambers were prepped for nitrous tho (all sharp edges rounded). worked well at the drag strip but i wouldnt suggest running that much timing unless you are sure about how the motor was put together
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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johnbull
Expert Class
Posts: 314
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posted November 18, 2009 08:24 AM
Thanks guys,
I am currently running standard timing as I am waiting for the release of the PCV ignition module.
So you dont think running a higher AFR would give better power??
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John Bul Racing. Malta.
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johnbull
Expert Class
Posts: 314
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posted November 18, 2009 08:25 AM
Here is the link to some footage of our race last weekend. Mine is the orange single seater which is 3rd on the grid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzBpkyVC1Ik
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John Bul Racing. Malta.
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KZScott
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posted November 18, 2009 08:50 AM
quote:
Thanks guys,
I am currently running standard timing as I am waiting for the release of the PCV ignition module.
So you dont think running a higher AFR would give better power??
only on a dyno printout, not the race track
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
johnbull
Expert Class
Posts: 314
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posted November 20, 2009 01:30 AM
quote:
quote:
Thanks guys,
I am currently running standard timing as I am waiting for the release of the PCV ignition module.
So you dont think running a higher AFR would give better power??
only on a dyno printout, not the race track
How much advance do you recommend would be safe to run since I am using 109 octane race fuel???
____________
John Bul Racing. Malta.
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INTIMIDA2OR
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RED rider!
Posts: 13081
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posted November 20, 2009 03:00 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Thanks guys,
I am currently running standard timing as I am waiting for the release of the PCV ignition module.
So you dont think running a higher AFR would give better power??
only on a dyno printout, not the race track
How much advance do you recommend would be safe to run since I am using 109 octane race fuel???
I would trial and error with a couple sets of plugs.
Keep advancing till the plugs show signs of preignition.
The ceramic will look speckled kinda like popcorn ceilings when you have too much advance.
Once you get to that point back off the timing untill the plugs look " clean ".
And of course back off the timing if the preigniton is audible!
____________
'06 Passion Red ZX-14
*Lee*
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zxbob
Pro
Posts: 1692
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posted November 20, 2009 04:44 AM
If your into it . . . . . try mixing an octain that your motor likes, its easy :
2 gallons of 110 octane = 220
2 gallons of 93 octane = 186
both totals = 406 divided by 4 gallons = 101.5
Give that a shot !
Bob
____________
Good parts aint cheap and cheap parts aint good !
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johnbull
Expert Class
Posts: 314
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posted November 20, 2009 11:01 AM
quote:
If your into it . . . . . try mixing an octain that your motor likes, its easy :
2 gallons of 110 octane = 220
2 gallons of 93 octane = 186
both totals = 406 divided by 4 gallons = 101.5
Give that a shot !
Bob
So, basically you are saying that a lower octane like 101 or 102 would be better for my motor??? Is that correct ZXBOB??
Thanks for your input.
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John Bul Racing. Malta.
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zxbob
Pro
Posts: 1692
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posted November 21, 2009 04:39 AM
No - thats not what im saying, but . . . . . . . . .
Your motor will run its best and make the most power with the lowest octane fuel
it can run without pinging. You need to experiment with how much octane your bike
needs. Many people dump 110 or 115 octane fuel in their bikes and think it will go
faster when the opposite really happens - they go slower !
After you've set your bike up (the way your gonna run it) experiment with the fuel !
Bob
____________
Good parts aint cheap and cheap parts aint good !
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dubious
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posted November 21, 2009 07:15 PM
 Edited By: dubious on 22 Nov 2009 03:17
John, what the guys run in nthe 1/4 mile might not be enough octane for you either.
Your running sustained periods and building alot of heat, whearas 1/4 mile is done pretty fast.
Similarly a dry block cooling suystem works for a 1/4 mile, but not for 20 minutes road racing , also your car very likely creates more drag, with more weight, creating a larger load on your engine than a drag bike does.
Also a drag bike is revving in the upper RPM, wheras your car might be torquing and pulling at mid rpm under load out of some corners etc....much more susceptible to detonation under heavy load and lower rpm for the given configuration.
I totally agree with what Bob is saying, and in addition stating what works for drag bikes might not for cct use. Your use might induce detonation whereas a the drag racer with the same exact engine and fuel might not.
If you have a large cooling system, and less advance, you will run cooler and reduce octane required.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted November 22, 2009 05:30 AM
With that compression ratio I'd run VP MRX-01 and set the a/f ratio to 12.6-12.8. Then map the ignition curve. While mapping the ignition curve you will need to tweak the a/f ratio again.
Data logging during practice laps on the courses you run on is the only real way to insure you are at the right real world a/f ratio for how you are loading the engine which is different from how a bike loads the engine assuming you are moving more weight.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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dubious
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posted November 22, 2009 11:31 AM
hehe, thats expensive fuel but defiantely makes the power. 
I was thinking about adding a bit on AFR, but see Jim beat me to the punch, and he has forgotten more than I will ever know about this stuff! LOL
John, realistically, I can say with almost complete certainty 96-100 Octane would work.
ALMOST is the key word! LOL
If you mixed 92 premium with 109 Sunoco, 50% and 50% , you would save money and have 100 octane fuel.
Make sure you get your premium from a reputable source that has good turn over in the tanks
Thats the exact combo I ran in my dirt bikes before VP became mainstream.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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johnbull
Expert Class
Posts: 314
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posted November 23, 2009 10:34 AM
Thanks for your input guys.
I can't play with the ignition curve yet as I am waiting for dynojet to release the ignition module to go with the PCV that I am using.
Anybody know when it is due to be available?
Re. Octane my main question is.......is there any possibility that I was loosing power by using 109 octane race fuel instead of 98 octane pump fuel which I was using before???
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John Bul Racing. Malta.
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zxbob
Pro
Posts: 1692
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posted November 23, 2009 11:27 AM
quote:
Re. Octane my main question is.......is there any possibility that I was loosing power by using 109 octane race fuel instead of 98 octane pump fuel which I was using before???
I might guess "yes"
Try mixing some fuel as discribed . . . . see if your lap times improve.
Bob
____________
Good parts aint cheap and cheap parts aint good !
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dcjens
Pro
Wet side of Washington
Posts: 1059
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posted November 24, 2009 06:22 AM
I have told several guys about how " less octane" is more power, I read on here. I have always filled up with 92 octane as my sticker said, but have noticed as good or better power with 89. Interesting mixing fuel to get a higher octane overall. still.... my buddies say, " what are you talking about"?
side note: Is it just me...or does the seductive lure of racing tempt from every angle? owning this bike is like having a crack pipe in your pocket waiting to be used for what is is designed to do.... even if it's on your way to work.
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Black 06
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johnbull
Expert Class
Posts: 314
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posted November 24, 2009 07:40 AM
quote:
quote:
Re. Octane my main question is.......is there any possibility that I was loosing power by using 109 octane race fuel instead of 98 octane pump fuel which I was using before???
I might guess "yes"
Try mixing some fuel as discribed . . . . see if your lap times improve.
Bob
Thanks, I will try this and see how it goes. I could just by Sunoco 102 octane race fuel instead of 109 octane right?
Cheers.
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John Bul Racing. Malta.
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johnbull
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posted November 24, 2009 08:08 AM
Heres a picture of the car at our last race.
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John Bul Racing. Malta.
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eklipse636
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posted November 24, 2009 04:53 PM
Just curious john, but what are the other cars using for motors?
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Best: 60ft 1.351 1/8 5.68 mph 123.98 1/4
8.89 mph 151.32
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johnbull
Expert Class
Posts: 314
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posted November 25, 2009 12:58 AM
quote:
Just curious john, but what are the other cars using for motors?
Various motors. In the 1000cc class its a mix of Yamaha R1's & Suzuki GSXR 1000's.
In the up to 1400cc class its a mix of ZX14's & Hayabusa's and in the up to 1600cc class which is the 1st car in the above video, this is a Radical using a full blown powertech 1500cc Hayabusa. These engines produce 260 BHP.
I am considering whether to stroke my engine or go for a supercharger. I think I will go for the supercharger though.
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John Bul Racing. Malta.
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KZScott
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posted November 25, 2009 11:56 AM
considered a GT40R ?
http://www.bigccracing.com/shop/category.asp?idCategory=106
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
johnbull
Expert Class
Posts: 314
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posted November 25, 2009 02:58 PM
Nop, dont like turbo's!
I'm seriously considering the Rotrex supercharger. These chargers have a lot less heat transfer plus they are very small and dont have any lag.
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John Bul Racing. Malta.
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